New upcoming feature in 5.201: Artillery Gunsight Leveling Using the Bubble Level

[LukeFF]

 

[BMA_FlyingShark]

Nice, good to see they're still working on content for TC.

 

Have a nice day.

 

[[CPT]Pike*HarryM]

Very nice to see some new features...

[MajorMagee]

Nice to see something/anything  for TC, but this in particular would have been way, way down the priority list for most of us. The amount of work this reflects could have been used more effectively to do something like AI infantry detachments for all the rest of the countries / time periods. Makes me wonder if this is somehow related to the new development project...

[MajorMagee]

Today's developer blog mentions that this will be a new feature for all four SP Guns. Nice!

[MajorMagee]

Perhaps this new capability will support "TC2" eventually coming out as the Battle of Narva (1944).

 

An interesting Otto Carius mini-campaign would be possible in this area.

 

New Map coming in March 2024

 

 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2023 by MajorMagee

[21.Gr.CT.Ludovisi]

very nice but probably useless for VR users due to th shaky gunsight/lack of view stabilizer

[moustache]

On 12/9/2023 at 2:20 PM, MajorMagee said:

Perhaps this new capability will support "TC2" eventually coming out as the Battle of Narva (1944).

 

An interesting Otto Carius mini-campaign would be possible in this area.

 

New Map coming in March 2024

 

 

 

 

 

I read the interview, but maybe I misunderstood or missed something...:
is this a map made by a modder?
I haven't seen mention of a tank part?

[ACG_Bussard]

The map was created on a private initiative. I'm not sure whether it's also suitable for Tank Crew, but I hope it will.

 

You can read the thread regarding the Finland Map here:

 

and here:

 

 

Of course you can also contact the initiator, LLv44_Kanttori, via PN and asking your questions directly. I already had contacted him and he answered quickly and kind.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Bussard*
typo

[LukeFF]

Update is now up!

[MajorMagee]

Even with the tutorial above, it was not obvious how to mount the artillery sight. (Right Alt C from the gunner position)

[[CPT]Pike*HarryM]

I've tried it in the su-122 and su-152 and seems to work. It's the vertical element that is hard to get even with the right range set. 

[LukeFF]

Guys, there are very good tutorial missions explaining how these new features work. If something still isn't there after playing them, then post your issues here. 

[No_Face]

I'm not sure I understand, is this the view you're aiming for?

[ACG_Bussard]

1 hour ago, No_Face said:

I'm not sure I understand, is this the view you're aiming for?

Unfortunatly no. If you want to know why, just write me a PM.

 

 

[ACG_Bussard]

13 hours ago, LukeFF said:

Guys, there are very good tutorial missions explaining how these new features work. If something still isn't there after playing them, then post your issues here. 

You mean this sparse described mission and why you are writing about missions? Where is the German one for the StuG or Ferdinand with an working angle-of-site level bubble and the 360°=6400 Mil panoramic sight (i.e. in German: Rundblickfernrohr 36)? A comprehensible answer is appreciated.

 

P.S. The second question was revised, as I see now cross level bubble displayed. Therefore  the mirror in the graphics settings hast to be at least on medium. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Bussard*

[LukeFF]

@Bussard*, the process should be nearly the same for the Ferdinand and StuG. It's just that the SU-122 was chosen as the demonstration unit. 

[ACG_Bussard]

@LukeFF I´m quite sure that you are aware that this is not the answer to my two questions, right?

[LukeFF]

23 hours ago, Bussard* said:

@LukeFF I´m quite sure that you are aware that this is not the answer to my two questions, right?

 

I'm not quite sure what the whole issue is, no, so could you please rephrase what exactly the issue is?

[ACG_Bussard]

4 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

I'm not quite sure what the whole issue is, no, so could you please rephrase what exactly the issue is?

I think I'll look into the matter more in depth first and probably come back to you at a later date. For now, let's celebrate and enjoy the upcoming holidays with our families. That´s more important imo. Merry Christmas.?

[ACG_Bussard]

On 12/23/2023 at 7:51 PM, LukeFF said:

 

I'm not quite sure what the whole issue is, no, so could you please rephrase what exactly the issue is?

 

In the meantime, I have successfully completed the tutorial mission and have been able to familiarize myself with the Russian and German assault guns on the Prokohorovka map. Therefore, I can now rephrase my comments in more detail.

 

Unfortunately, I have to say that the solution for indirect fire presented for the German assault guns is incomplete compared to the Russian ones. In particular, the accessories for the angle-of-site mechanism (clinometer) with longitudinal bubble level and the artillery panaromic sight are missing. I have attached a complete illustration of the German sight mechanism with a translation of all components into English:

 

 

For the description of the 8.8cm Pak 43/2(L/71) aiming device used in the Ferdinand, I have attached a zipped PDF with excerpts from an detailed article in the "Waffen-Revue  No. 67" (published in 1987). If required, I can do a translation into English.

 

Waffen Revue 67 Porsche-Tiger Ferdinand.zip

 

 

I would also be happy to provide further German primary sources (technical descriptions, service regulations and leaflets) about indirect shooting with self-propelled guns if required. Of course with translation of the important parts into English.

 

As stated previously, the angle-of-site mechanism (clinometer) mounted for indirect firing and the artillery panaromic sight mounted on it aren´t modeled and simulated currently. The lack of the longitudinal bubble level means that it isn´t possible to center the gun muzzle of German assault guns on uneven ground. The German firing instructions for tank destroyer cannons (H.Dv. 473/10a part a Gunnery instructions from 1/1944) expressly point out aiming errors if the bubble levels aren´t centered. The question arises as to how an amining error in Tank Crew with the StuG III and Ferdinand can be avoided, if there is no level on the longitudinal plane to center the cannon on uneven ground?

 

Due to the lack of an panaromic sight with a viewing radius of 360°/6,400 mils, no aiming-point and deflection method or determination of the side direction is possible. The lateral lead of 20 mils, i.e. 1 degree to the left/right, which can be set in the telescopic gunsight for direct shooting, isn´t a sufficient alternative. For comparison: the two Russian assault guns Su-122 and Su-152 have the Goerz panorama sight with 360°/6,000 mil viewing radius. Therefore, a subsequent addition to the German assault guns should be quite possible, as the use of an panorama sight is already included in the simulation.

 

For more accurate shooting, I would also like to see the mil value indicated in the tech chat of the panoramic sight and when using the map ruler. Specifing degree numbers without an additional mil value is unfortunately far too unprecise for artillery requirements.

 

For modeling the German panaromic sight, I have included the following templates of the Rbfl. 36 device, which also shows the special reticle in detail:

 

https://arnhem44.com/shop.php?code=51329

 

https://www.adlermilitaria.com/product/wwii-german-army-optic-rb36-with-rubber-pak-and-cannon-main-gun-optic-90-dunkelgelb-paint-working-order/

 

https://militariaplaza.nl/new/wehrmacht-rundblickfernrohr-36-detail

 

Further I´m asking for an addtional function for the binoculars: The rotation of the binoculars from the horizontal to the vertical position to measure and calculate target sizes, target heights and cover heights with the vertical reticle.

 

Vertical turning for makeshift purposes was common back then, when a Battery commander´s telescope wasn´t at hand. See the attached screenshot:

 

It would be a great and awesome move, if the developers will take on this matters next year in order to enhance the inspiring idea of indirect fire. The orientation towards the historical model is also accompanied by an improved simulation of artillery shooting. It would be a gain for the entire Tank Crew community.

 

I wish us all a Happy New Year!
 

[MajorMagee]

Interesting that this new capability didn't even come up in the developer's update video. I appreciate the enthusiasm for them to properly finish what they started, but I have to wonder how important this really is to them.

 

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I still can't figure out why that didn't take the time to provide AI infantry squads for all of the countries when they brought out BoN. It seems like a trivial amount of work when compared to this project.

[johnwick4001]

How about filling out the remaining armor like the T-85,Sherman Firefly,IS-2,Tiger 2 with henschel and porsche turret, Jadgpanther,Jadgpanzer 4, instead of gliders and trucks...

[ACG_Bussard]

11 hours ago, johnwick4001 said:

How about filling out the remaining armor like the T-85,Sherman Firefly,IS-2,Tiger 2 with henschel and porsche turret, Jadgpanther,Jadgpanzer 4, instead of gliders and trucks...

This would be a great thing! Why you don´t head over to the  correspondening thread from the last day´s and backup my similar suggestion? Only saying, just in case...

[ShampooX]

The SU122 tutorial sucks.  All it says is "Assume Firing Position."  When you do that nothing else happens and there is noting in any of the notes that tells you how to get th artillery sight out and up.

[ACG_Bussard]

5 hours ago, ShampooX said:

The SU122 tutorial sucks.  All it says is "Assume Firing Position."  When you do that nothing else happens and there is noting in any of the notes that tells you how to get th artillery sight out and up.

Yes, that's right. Without the desire to familiarize with artillery basics and the procedures back then as well as good part of guesswork, you cannot successfully complete the tutorial mission and learn something out of it.

 

Let's hope for improvements to the tutorial missions and a complete implementation of needed accessories for artillery/indirect shooting. All this has currently only in fractions to do with artillery alignment and leveling.  Suggestions for improvements are already done.

 

It´s  now up to the developers to show the will to take what they have started to a  worthy level of simulation. One example of this, was the dive bombing system (BZA) of the Ar-234 and Me-410, which was implemented really impressively one and half year ago. Will it be possible to achieve this level of quality again?
 

[ACG_Bussard]

With reference to my post at the end of the year, additional information has surfaced.

 

From the description below it is evident that the Telescopic Gunsight Sfl.ZF1a from the German Aussalt Guns were intended for direct fire and not for indirect fire:

 

 

@LukeFF Had you in the meanwhile a chance to forward this issue to the developers and what is their reaction?

 

 

Edited January 10, 2024 by Bussard*
grammar

[czech693]

You are correct.  The tutorial video shows them using it for direct fire as they are aiming the sight at the observered target.  In indirect fire you are shooting at a coordinate given to you by an observer who can see the target, and who makes adjustments to your shot.  Zooming ahead to the target to observe the fall of shot sort of mimics an observer.  Using the measuring tool on the map sort of mimics the range and azimuth that your fire direction control would be giving you, only they would be giving it to you in an azimuth, elevation, and amount of charge.  I consider these vehicles to be assault guns and not artillery.  Are they using fixed ammunition or adjustable charge ammunition?

[ACG_Bussard]

2 hours ago, czech693 said:

 I consider these vehicles to be assault guns and not artillery.  Are they using fixed ammunition or adjustable charge ammunition?

Right, Assault Guns aren´t artillery, they operated best from a hidden location. However, if there were no other targets to engage by direct fire, it was permitted by the German operational guidlines back then to fire from a concealed position indirectly.

 

Assault Guns using their standard High Explosive shells during their indirect fire. Unlike a Howitzer, the propellant charge of this High Explosive shell wasn´t adjustable.

 

It should be also noted that the tutorial video not only showed direct firing instead the indirect fire capablilty mentioned in the patch notes.  In the shown situation the Su-152 shots  from the same height as the target (artilley emplacement with a factory nearby). Accordingly there was no difference in elevation, which had to be compensated with an additional angle-of-site correction when laying the gun. I don't know if the tutorial video was shown that way intentional?! The shown situation can be recreated very well using the AQM of the Prokohorvka Map. 

 

 

[LukeFF]

5 hours ago, Bussard* said:

Had you in the meanwhile a chance to forward this issue to the developers and what is their reaction?

 

I've let them know, yes, but I don't know right now what their plans are for this feature going forward.

[ACG_Bussard]

@LukeFF

 

As it´s getting towards eastern, so I´d like to ask, if you have any news from the devs on how to proceed with the described issues and suggestions for improvements to the indirect fire capabilities published in December?

Edited March 15, 2024 by Bussard*
typo

[Leady_Brickov]

Hi Guys

 

What is the key mapping called for tilting the artillery sight to center the bubble? Lshift Z and X don't work for me as I've got a whole bunch of custom key mappings.

 

Thanks in advance ?

[LukeFF]

19 hours ago, Bussard* said:

@LukeFF

 

As it´s getting towards eastern, so I´d like to ask, if you have any news from the devs on how to proceed with the described issues and suggestions for improvements to the indirect fire capabilities published in December?

 

I can ask, thanks.

[ACG_Bussard]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

 

I can ask, thanks.

Thank you too! Would be awesome, if we´ll get some news on this.

[Nickkyboy99]

On 3/15/2024 at 1:51 PM, LukeFF said:

 

I can ask, thanks.

So, anything?

[LukeFF]

Nothing new, sorry. 

[ACG_Bussard]

Sad really, but at the same time amusing to leave this feature in this state. No wonder it is hardly used and known in everyday online server life on the Axis side.

[Sturmgeschultz]

Hello All,

So I've been messing around in the Su-122 tutorial. You have to turn on icons, navigation, and some other settings to get the texts to prompt after pulling into the burm. However, the tutorial does not explain key commands for adjusting the dial sight or the panoramic reflector. At one point the tutorial is telling me to adjust 33-00 to another number and I can't find any key bind under tank controls or weapon controls that adjusts that. It doesn't help that some controls for the gunner station are hidden in other names. Tilting the sight for the gun is the compass direction for the Churchill, the su-122 is not even listed on that command in the key mapping.

 

I was able to hit the 3km target but have no idea how to hit the 9km one, matching range, leveling a sight, and facing an azimuth isn't enough. The gun moves off the mouse when it's unlocked, so I can set the gun range to 9km, and level the bubble in the level, but what elevation? Pointing at the horizon? Max elevation? Should I remove all mouse inputs to the gun? I tried mapping my keyboard to control the gun directly but that doesn't work, the gun won't move.

Can we get a confirmation on what default keys are supposed to be used for indirect fire?

Thank you

[Flyhighzz]

A year after its release, the indirect fire feature for the StuG and Ferdinand remains incomplete and seemingly forgotten. It's quite disappointing, to say the least.