VR

[cugel1]

I've been a very long Il2 pilot, and now...i'm using less and less this sim when I see the evolution of DCS in terms of performance. have a heafty pc and il2 is the worst performing sim in VR that I have on my system. seems like they the dev teams are more focused on delivrering more content versus an up to date sim with an optimized engine.

Release after release I keep hoping that it will come.....?.

 

[IckyATLAS]

On 10/29/2023 at 8:18 PM, IckyATLAS said:

I also noted the last point in the list, and that is that maybe the random Editor Crashes on large full 4K monitors may have been finally corrected ? STill to be tested.

But if true devs seem to have finally addressed this issue. Why now and not when we started asking for it many, many, many years ago. Recently I think it was Luke who mentioned that any addition to the editor object library was made according to devs needs. If they needed a new object for a campaign then okay they will add it in the editor.

Tested and Nope. Still got a crash out to desktop. Seems what has been corrected is not the only issue.

I am running on Windows 11 on a Intel 13900KS, with Asus Strix Nvidia 4090. Screen is full 4K. 

Maybe they have corrected the issue for 2K display, but not 4K.

 

On 11/4/2023 at 11:16 AM, cugel1 said:

I've been a very long Il2 pilot, and now...i'm using less and less this sim when I see the evolution of DCS in terms of performance. have a heafty pc and il2 is the worst performing sim in VR that I have on my system. seems like they the dev teams are more focused on delivrering more content versus an up to date sim with an optimized engine.

Release after release I keep hoping that it will come.....?.

 

Can you please comment about what do you mean in terms of "performance" as it is a vague term. Is it frame rate at certain resolution, latency, time dilation etc. or other. I am not yet with VR but slowly thinking of maybe do the jump one day so I am interested in your comment. Thanks

Edited November 5, 2023 by IckyATLAS

[kissTheSky]

23 minutes ago, IckyATLAS said:

Tested and Nope. Still got a crash out to desktop. Seems what has been corrected is not the only issue.

I am running on Windows 11 on a Intel 13900KS, with Asus Strix Nvidia 4090. Screen is full 4K. 

Maybe they have corrected the issue for 2K display, but not 4K.

 

Can you please comment about what do you mean in terms of "performance" as it is a vague term. Is it frame rate at certain resolution, latency, time dilation etc. or other. I am not yet with VR but slowly thinking of maybe do the jump one day so I am interested in your comment. Thanks

I’m not who you asked the question to, but my experience has been similar to @cugel1’s, so I’ll add in a tidbit.

 

ive been vocal about it and got myself in trouble because I feel strongly about this. For last three years that I’ve had IL-2, VR experience, especially in single player has been marred with micro stutters even though your frame rates were pegged at 90 Hz (shortly after take off). No matter how high of an altitude you’re flying at, you bank and look towards ground and you’d get stutters. 
 

Quite a few people reported it, even provided solid data to the development team, which finally made them admit the problem as they were pointing to player settings, computer spec and all that before that. What the development team had done after finally admitting there is a problem was even more shocking as they said (to the effect of), “well, we can’t do anything about it as it will take way too much resource (both hardware and human)”. Their claim was it was very difficult to get HMDs to Russia. This was even before the special military operation by the way. 
 

The problem is most evident in Bodenplatte bomber escort missions, but happens pretty much consistently. The latest hardware helps a lot, but it’s still there and development team not willing to fix it had put me off of the game in late 2021. I did download Normandy when it came out and tested it out since I preordered it quite some time ago, but since late ‘21, early ‘22, I don’t believe I’ve put in more than 15 hours in the sim.

 

To provide a bit more context, I have a Reverb G2, and my hardware progression is: 10700KF, RTX 2080, 32 GB -> 10700KF, RTX 3090, 32GB -> 13900 KF, RTX 4090, 32GB. Only with the latest system do I have somewhat passable flying experience. The same system kills it in iRacing with 40+ AI cars on most recent tracks and not even a stutter, or dropped frames. 

[IckyATLAS]

1 hour ago, kissTheSky said:

Their claim was it was very difficult to get HMDs to Russia. This was even before the special military operation by the way. 

It is time they have a collaboration with a dev team outside Russia for this kind of hardware, as things will not improve anyway in the short term at least.

VR hardware will continue improving there will be a moment (no cables, excellent resolution 4K per eye, 200° aperture horizontal and 130° Vertical, light to wear, no lag, perfectly fluid, , no screen-door effect, long autonomy, etc.) that not having it implemented perfectly will make you obsolete. Flight Sims are THE games where with the VR experience you go to another level. The dev team risks to fall behind in a couple of years.

When we see that Nvidia is not allowed to sell GPU chips to China, I wonder what limitation will come with Russia. 

[RedeyeStorm]

Well @IckyATLAS about VR. Ima a long time VR flyer. My first HMD was an Oculus and now I am using a Valve Index. I never had any issues with stutters of any kind. I am not saying that others do not have this issue but it doesn’t mean you will have stutters. For instance the VR performance in Il2 has been consistent over two computers and HMD’s. DCS on the other hand has always been a nightmare of finding a working setup where I suffered from wildly fluctuating fps. With the last patch I now have a smooth experience, finally. 
 

But then again I am not a very active online player and for SP I am quit content with a stable 45 fps. But fair warning if it works fine you will never go back to ‘pancake’ flying.

[kissTheSky]

6 hours ago, IckyATLAS said:

Flight Sims are THE games where with the VR experience you go to another level. The dev team risks to fall behind in a couple of years.

very true. If I were forced to stop VR, I could still do race sims with triple monitors, but would definitely stop flight sims. For me, at this point, it is VR flight sims, or no flight sims at all.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

1 hour ago, kissTheSky said:

very true. If I were forced to stop VR, I could still do race sims with triple monitors, but would definitely stop flight sims. For me, at this point, it is VR flight sims, or no flight sims at all.

I think opposite. 

[FuriousMeow]

12 hours ago, IckyATLAS said:

(no cables, excellent resolution 4K per eye, 200° aperture horizontal and 130° Vertical, light to wear, no lag, perfectly fluid, , no screen-door effect, long autonomy, etc.)

 

That's so far off, if even possible, I doubt I'll be alive let alone anyone still playing GB or even the next project or DCS. No cables especially, the amount of data that has to be transmitted and would need to be lossless just isn't feasible. As far as the rest, it's been a decade and there really haven't been much improvements with VR. The resolution has gotten better but the screens needed to produce details at such a small scale at high resolutions, current technology just won't do it. A whole new screen technology without pixels needs to come along.

[IckyATLAS]

5 hours ago, FuriousMeow said:

That's so far off, if even possible, I doubt I'll be alive let alone anyone still playing GB or even the next project or DCS.

Yes that is the ultimate perfection. On the road of that perfection probably some parameters are more important than others and so only time will tell at which moment I will jump in, or to say at which moment VR may become more mainstream with gamers. At the moment it is still a minority community.

 

Regarding feasibility, it is definitively feasible, it is just a matter of time, and technology moves by leaps and bounds, so we could be surprised about the time needed.

After all we talk about two key technologies: semicon and optics. There are very promising technologies in both brewing in the labs and I would not be surprised that some novel technology gives a strong boost to VR in about 4 to 5 years (at an affordable price), which is tomorrow.

Edited November 6, 2023 by IckyATLAS

[Jaegermeister]

14 hours ago, RedeyeStorm said:

Well @IckyATLAS about VR. Ima a long time VR flyer. My first HMD was an Oculus and now I am using a Valve Index. I never had any issues with stutters of any kind. I am not saying that others do not have this issue but it doesn’t mean you will have stutters. For instance the VR performance in Il2 has been consistent over two computers and HMD’s. DCS on the other hand has always been a nightmare of finding a working setup where I suffered from wildly fluctuating fps. With the last patch I now have a smooth experience, finally. 
 

But then again I am not a very active online player and for SP I am quit content with a stable 45 fps. But fair warning if it works fine you will never go back to ‘pancake’ flying.

 

I have been flying IL2 in VR for a few years now. I started with an Oculus Rift and moved up to a HP reverb G2 with an upgrade to my CPU, board and GPU (RX5700). I do not have any stutters but I do get time dilation (slow motion) visuals when certain effects like tracers from a destroyer or multiple burning airplanes are displayed. The stutters I used to get was from USB conflicts from having so many peripherals attached and so few USB ports. A new motherboard fixed that. I have spent a lot of time optimizing mission logic to reduce this effect and had some success but only to a certain limit. It has mostly to do with CPU rendering of complex vehicles and how many of them are active and "disabled" at any given moment. Optimizing single player mission logic improves and manages the problem but does not make it go away. 99% of the time it is perfectly smooth and playable and like those above, I would never go back to trying to fly missions on a flat screen. It really is much more immersive and the depth perception multiplies situational awareness significantly.

 

Regarding the HMD, I feel like the required cable, headset and HOTAS controls does a good job of simulating a flying helmet, speaker and microphone cable and goggles, so I'm OK with it. It does get a little warm sometimes though. Maybe like the sun shining through a perspex canopy at 10.000 feet on a sunny day?

 

@IckyATLAS, if you are considering getting into VR, your system is at least 1 generation ahead of mine and a top end VR setup will really change your game for the better. I can't recommend it highly enough. 

[blitze]

On 11/4/2023 at 12:16 PM, cugel1 said:

I've been a very long Il2 pilot, and now...i'm using less and less this sim when I see the evolution of DCS in terms of performance. have a heafty pc and il2 is the worst performing sim in VR that I have on my system. seems like they the dev teams are more focused on delivrering more content versus an up to date sim with an optimized engine.

Release after release I keep hoping that it will come.....?.

 

It's a mixed bag for me.  I upgraded my GPU to a RX 7900XT and VR can run exceptionally well with a caveat, large towns and cities still drop frames.  Playing a campaign in Stalingrad I get great fps looking in any direction than Stalingrad.  When I return my focus to Stalingrad my frames dip.  This is not as bad as on Normandy when I do a patrol over the landing zones my fps on my system tanks.  Yes, my CPU is a 3900X but it's a 24 thread CPU and not working hard on Il2.

 

Don't seem to have large drops on Western Front, Moscow or Rhineland Maps population centers.  I'm running 4444 x 3020 SS render resolution in SteamVR without FSR and normal frame rate is 75fps in Ultimate with High Shadows, Clouds 150km terrain distance and Med Mirrors.  No HDR, filters or AA. 

 

The engine has limitations and hopefully that is what they are addressing with their new project but without having to throw out the assets of the current series.  Loving the newly reworked La5.

 

Career issue is how other flights in my career squadron seem to return to base untouched with very mediocre action performance but when my flight goes up and we encounter the enemy, it's a death fest and we are lucky if half the flight makes it home.  I did notice in the current release that on a bomber escort mission, the bombers on their return flew close to the front lines and then hugged them on the return flight which I though was a wise move.  Would make sense to do that in the event we are intercepted and bomber crews go down and have to bail.  Will fly my next Bomber Escort Mission today which has us flying deep into enemy territory, see how that plays out with the AI.....

[blitze]

20 hours ago, IckyATLAS said:

VR hardware will continue improving there will be a moment (no cables, excellent resolution 4K per eye, 200° aperture horizontal and 130° Vertical, light to wear, no lag, perfectly fluid, , no screen-door effect, long autonomy, etc.) that not having it implemented perfectly will make you obsolete. Flight Sims are THE games where with the VR experience you go to another level.

 China is doing well in the VR Hardware department.  The Pimax 8K-X which I use is 170degrees horizontal which is what I run it at, 4K per eye and not to bad to wear regards to weight.  I swapped out the face foam with a faux leather one from China and not only is it much more comfortable but also lighter as well.  As for no cables - hmm no thanks.  I'll stay tethered because I am not keen on a high bandwidth WiFi device parked on my head, we have enough issues with EM Radiation as it is and to be honest, cables are more reliable at delivering high bandwidth data.  My wish would be for maybe higher res OLED panels with localised dimming.  Maybe lighter headset but I am not going for the Lucky Palmer Direct VR Experience with something that hooks my brain directly to external data input ?

 

Anyway, the devs can get some good VR equipment from their neighbors and China is also starting to enter into GPU and CPU production with some interesting results.  Although they are restricted from getting Western Tech - they are working on leapfrogging current silicon lithography tech going with optical processor development.  Who knows how it will turn out.  In the meantime, it seams ARM based CPU's are becoming the rage in the West.  Then again Power PC ain't dead either and x86-64 keeps stomping along.  Interesting times.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I had used VR headsets - from Gear VR, Samsung Odyssey plus , HP Reverb G2 and  now Quest 3 but never liked flaying il2  VR in competitive multiplayer scenarios, as I don't play single player I prefer 2D. I do enjoy other games in VR. 

[Lusekofte]

17 minutes ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

I had used VR headsets - from Gear VR, Samsung Odyssey plus , HP Reverb G2 and  now Quest 3 but never liked flaying il2  VR in competitive multiplayer scenarios, as I don't play single player I prefer 2D. I do enjoy other games in VR. 

Reason I am flying in VR is purely the feel of being in the cockpit 

not much else is a advantage. 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

10 minutes ago, Lusekofte said:

Reason I am flying in VR is purely the feel of being in the cockpit 

not much else is a advantage. 

I know but also I don't get it myself ,because I feel like flying a 1:1 toy model, lack of any kind of  vibration to airframe and objects inside it  significantly reduce immersion for me.

Never played DCS but new Phantom 2 from heatblur will have those vibration modeled, that what I want to test when it will be ready.

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[IckyATLAS]

Interesting comments from many. One thing pops out is once you have tried it you cannot go back. Kind of addiction. 

So yeah, I have still to decide if to take the blue or red pill !

 

Blue you stay in a 2D sim world. No change in your life. Things stay as the have always been and as they are and will be.

Red and you wake up open your eyes and you are in the sim's real 3D world. There is no coming back. 

 

Difficult decision. I have to think about a little bit.

 

 

 

[NiiranenVR]

1 hour ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

vibration

You know about simseat ?

Im used to it now - can feel when I'm shooting and really when one shooting me 

Groundbombs and so on 

I fly in G2 and simseat , and don't fly without both 

 

Ps - if you fly with G2 VR , try 60 Hz 

[Lusekofte]

40 minutes ago, IckyATLAS said:

One thing pops out is once you have tried it you cannot go back.

I can easily go back. In DCS you get more immersion by having system screens and a curved 47 “ screen with panels and a good eyetracker. I have much more immersion by good hardware like my custom made floor mounted stick than any vr will give you. 
My sense of immersion lies in operating the craft not in as Husar said looking into a cartoon. VR has its pros but I never really liked the humid closet feel strapping it on. Neither the inability to see the buttons you push. 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

3 hours ago, NiiranenVR said:

You know about simseat ?

Im used to it now - can feel when I'm shooting and really when one shooting me 

Groundbombs and so on 

I fly in G2 and simseat , and don't fly without both 

 

Ps - if you fly with G2 VR , try 60 Hz 

Yes I know for sure it add immersion, but I'm speaking about Inside sim vibration simulation - visual . I don't have G2 now. Why 60hz if I have good performance with 80/90 ?

Edited November 6, 2023 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[NiiranenVR]

2 hours ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

60hz

Im not sure i understand what you mean about inside vibration - it's a pc game and I use some things to make the game better - 

In my mind it can never be a real plane - you know about VR so not new for you ?

 

About the  60 Hz was for people who maybe feel the pc can make it 

I don't see so much diff between 60 and 90 Hz 

[SharpeXB]

On 11/4/2023 at 5:16 AM, cugel1 said:

I see the evolution of DCS in terms of performance. have a heafty pc and il2 is the worst performing sim in VR that I have on my system.

It’s funny you say that because everyone in DCS seems to say the opposite. Niether game was really ever meant for VR though. 

Edited November 6, 2023 by SharpeXB

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

I quit playing IL-2 in single player because of this issue, but don't really miss it at all. In competitive multiplayer find the performance to be reasonably good most of the time. Yes there is some occasional ghosting and stuttering, but overall it's a very good experience and way better than anything DCS can muster up. To play in single player is a no go for me because of the limited amount of units that can be run because of the poor AI cpu usage/optimization, which causes massive time dilation in VR. Single player would only be fun if one could run IL-2 1946 levels of units, ships, fighter aircraft, bombers, etc.

[IckyATLAS]

So a question here, what is the best VR set at the moment. I have the feeling it is the Pixmax Crystal: YES? NO?

Luke will move this to another forum I am afraid......

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

1 hour ago, NiiranenVR said:

Im not sure i understand what you mean about inside vibration - it's a pc game and I use some things to make the game better - 

In my mind it can never be a real plane - you know about VR so not new for you ?

 

About the  60 Hz was for people who maybe feel the pc can make it 

I don't see so much diff between 60 and 90 Hz 

I meant that there are no visual vibration in the cockpit, there is the 2D headshake option for monitor gameplay, but of course this  can't work in VR (the shake is applied to the screen - head, not to the airframe elements) and it doesn't.

Look at this video and see how cockpit elements do vibrate. This is absent in IL2 VR (headshake option do not work as it's just workoroud for real airframe vibration for 2D) and that is way I feel like flying 1:1 toy plane in IL2 VR.

 

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[NiiranenVR]

1 hour ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

visual vibration

It's always hard to go back from something were used to but have you tried a simseat ?? 

I have simseat and a buttkicker to my chair ... Fell the shaken plane are starting and stopping / rolling the take off / feel it's almost stalling and other stuff 

Today I can not fly without my simseat in VR  ( I have never played in 2d ) 

 

Well , I'll not make a short story long - but ppl in VR should really try simseat 

[kissTheSky]

2 hours ago, IckyATLAS said:

So a question here, what is the best VR set at the moment. I have the feeling it is the Pixmax Crystal: YES? NO?

Luke will move this to another forum I am afraid......

Consensus seems to be towards Varjo Aero. Especially now that it’s half its initial price. 
I am waiting to see how Somnium VR1 end user reviews are going to be like. It seems good on paper, but if my G2 died tomorrow, I’d be ordering an Aero since Somnium is not available yet. 

[AcidBath]

Here's an up and coming VR HMD: https://www.bigscreenvr.com/.  I hope they'll fix its issue with glare.

 

I've been using a HP Reverb G2 with a 3080 ti for the last two years.  By no means a perfect experience visually, but IMHO it's vastly superior (as in visceral) to using my 2k monitor running razor crisp with BoX full max settings enabled.  The biggest deal for me in VR is the gunnery.  Being able to track in your shots with stereoscopic vision is a joy to behold (and exploit ?).   Once I experienced this on a friend's build, I knew I had to have it.  In VR I have to turn down a lot settings, including the resolution, to get mostly 90 fps.  At least for the G2, any lower FPS than this significantly degrades the overall experience so I gladly take the image quality hit in exchange for fps.  BTW, I only fly online missions with my tiny little squad, using short missions (15-25 minutes) we wrote to battle against AI for both BoX and FC.

 

Edit:  A HUGE recommendation for G2 owners is to use the OpenXR toolkit mod in conjunct with the OpenComposite mod.  Check all of this out here: https://mbucchia.github.io/OpenXR-Toolkit/.  This takes SteamVR completely out of the loop (as in running steam is not needed) while providing some really useful performance enhancing and image quality tuning features.

Edited November 7, 2023 by AcidBath

[Riderocket]

Disable MSAA,

Turn down Shadows and Mirror Reflections

Distant Landscape textures set to x2 for 4GB VRAM, 3x for 6 and 4x for 8+

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Riderocket

[migmadmarine]

During the stutters described, to animation effects like rain on the glass, smoke and artillery splashes still play? On a flat screen I get these at least 3 times a mission, where time will freeze but these animations will run, then when everything resumes moving again the game runs in "fast forward" it feels like for the next little bit till it catches up to where I should have been when the hangup started. These have become frequent maybe around the release of Normandy, maybe a bit earlier, and seem to have replaced the sort of "slow motion" effect that I'd encounter when there were a lot of AI present in the past (at least that was playable, the current hangups have put me into the ground when flying low). I have more ram on the way, hope that will help some. 

[tvcasualty]

I would like to mention that I would LOVE to see the cockpit vibrations that are shown in the F-4 Phantom video.
This would be a huge addition to the sim and would be very noticeable in the VR space especially with base shakers (and FFB).

Not everything has to shake, just a few wires and some of the cables.

Imagine that coinciding with the telemetry data to the shakers.

[dannyGrim]

I have found it really requires a lot of tweaking to get your system dialed in for il2. I have a reverb g2 and I use 60 hz option over 90. My pc can hit 90 consistently but for some reason I discovered that stutters and other visual issues are non existent for me with my current setup running at 60hz. I use the open composite bypass steamVR. 
 

Il2 is sitting on a potential goldmine if they managed to do proper VR support for il2:1946. Copy paste the game just do some VR support. I would buy it in a heartbeat to be able to fly around with the numbers of planes we could have in the air in 1946. 

Edited November 7, 2023 by dannyGrim

[Lusekofte]

1 hour ago, dannyGrim said:

is sitting on a potential goldmine if they managed to do proper VR support for il2:1946.

It would require a total rebuild. 2 D can not easily be 3 D Beside I am sure the software require a bit more than copy paste in order to go vr. 

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

2 hours ago, dannyGrim said:

 

Il2 is sitting on a potential goldmine if they managed to do proper VR support for il2:1946. Copy paste the game just do some VR support. I would buy it in a heartbeat to be able to fly around with the numbers of planes we could have in the air in 1946. 

LOL, I've played IL-2 1946 in VR with VORPX. The cockpits, trees, terrain, plane models, etc. do not hold up at all.

[dannyGrim]

1 hour ago, drewm3i-VR said:

LOL, I've played IL-2 1946 in VR with VORPX. The cockpits, trees, terrain, plane models, etc. do not hold up at all.

Vorpx isn’t true VR support lol. 

[RedeyeStorm]

7 hours ago, dannyGrim said:

Vorpx isn’t true VR support lol. 

That is true but it works by reading the depthbuffer to simulate 3D. Tracers, gunsights and props have no depthbuffer and that would need to be changed too for inbuilt VR. Massive rework of the engine.

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

8 hours ago, dannyGrim said:

Vorpx isn’t true VR support lol. 

You're not understanding my point. IL-2 1946 looks terrible in VR...almost EVERYTHING is actually in 2D like cockpit bolts, gauges, etc. In VR that looks terrible and would have to remade.

[LukeFF]

7 hours ago, drewm3i-VR said:

You're not understanding my point. IL-2 1946 looks terrible in VR...almost EVERYTHING is actually in 2D like cockpit bolts, gauges, etc. In VR that looks terrible and would have to remade.

 

It was a similar issue as well when TrackIR started to become popular - people quickly noticed that all of the cockpits were not made with 6DOF in mind.

 

19 hours ago, dannyGrim said:

Il2 is sitting on a potential goldmine if they managed to do proper VR support for il2:1946. Copy paste the game just do some VR support. I would buy it in a heartbeat to be able to fly around with the numbers of planes we could have in the air in 1946. 

 

Alas, 1CGS does not hold the publishing rights to the original IL2 anymore. They belong now to Fulqrum Publishing.

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

Backwards is not forward...the way to fix the issues with GB is to move forwards and salvage what is good and even passable and marry it to new technologies and methodologies that will create the ultimate CFS to date for VR and flatscreen.

 

This is not to say that IL-2 1946 should not be used as inspiration and that its approach to certain things like AI flight models should not be considered/used, especially with AI heavy bombers (target drones that drop bombs and shoot back).

Edited November 8, 2023 by drewm3i-VR

[spreckair]

3 hours ago, drewm3i-VR said:

Backwards is not forward...the way to fix the issues with GB is to move forwards and salvage what is good and even passable and marry it to new technologies and methodologies that will create the ultimate CFS to date for VR and flatscreen.

And how do we know that the current efforts by the larger team of developers is not doing just this--moving forward?  Unfortunately, we do not know. However, we also do not know that this isn't happening.  So, in the absence of information, perhaps it is best not to assume anything and hope that the coming efforts are fruitful.

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

2 hours ago, spreckair said:

And how do we know that the current efforts by the larger team of developers is not doing just this--moving forward?  Unfortunately, we do not know. However, we also do not know that this isn't happening.  So, in the absence of information, perhaps it is best not to assume anything and hope that the coming efforts are fruitful.

I said nothing to the effect that the current efforts that will be coming down the pipeline won't be fruitful.