I'd love a FPV of the Pilot in the cockpit. Would this be possible in the future?

[Mysticpuma]

Gunfreak posted a P-47 video showcasing the Pimax. During that video there is a great shot of the pilots legs and arms. So much more realistic than the ghost view we have at the moment. Please consider it as an option for platers TFS. Vide is set to start at the pilot body sequence.

 

 

[OBT-Lionel]

That would be nice.

 

But I prefer that TFS focuses on more interesting things.

[Mysticpuma]

1 hour ago, OBT-Lionel said:

That would be nice.

 

But I prefer that TFS focuses on more interesting things.

One can have dreams

[Blitzen]

5 hours ago, Mysticpuma said:

Gunfreak posted a P-47 video showcasing the Pimax. During that video there is a great shot of the pilots legs and arms. So much more realistic than the ghost view we have at the moment. Please consider it as an option for platers TFS. Vide is set to start at the pilot body sequence.

 

 

There is a MOD for this in GB that works with VR,and it does work well & makes things a bit more immersive ..

[Dagwoodyt]

In-cockpit views look like the Varjo quad view DFR effect. Multi-threading plus DFR seems like the way to go. I wouldn't be interested in any VR hmd that does not support DFR capability.

[Mysticpuma]

2 hours ago, Blitzen said:

There is a MOD for this in GB that works with VR,and it does work well & makes things a bit more immersive ..

Which makes me think, if it can be nodded into GB, it should be simple for a team to create it? 

[PO_Baldrick]

4 minutes ago, Mysticpuma said:

Which makes me think, if it can be nodded into GB, it should be simple for a team to create it? 

If it is the mod I tried it wasn’t close to DCS quality. It takes yonks to get a pilot body in new DCS modules so I guess it isn’t that simple.

[Mysticpuma]

I wonder if someone who created the mod for BoX would be interested in doing it for CloD (officially)? 

[Gunfreak]

It's one of my main complaints of Clod and IL2, lack of pilot body.

In vr for me the pilot body helps immensely with immersion.

 

I love my F16 in DCS, but I'm sure my enjoyment of sitting in the cockpit would increase by 36.85% if it had a pilot body. And same would be true for all clod/il2 aircraft too.

[Dagwoodyt]

Then too, DCS has very granular capability WRT positioning pilot eyepoint at any time during flight. That's a great help setting up tail dragger like I-16 for landings.

[Blitzen]

19 hours ago, Mysticpuma said:

I wonder if someone who created the mod for BoX would be interested in doing it for CloD (officially)? 

You could always ask.The mod is in the GB MODS section of the Forum.

[Bussard_x]

Not a good idea when pilot has constantly left hand on the throttle.

[Mysticpuma]

11 minutes ago, Bussard2 said:

Not a good idea when pilot has constantly left hand on the throttle.

That's why it needs someone to model it who is interested and can set it to work for each aircraft ?

[Buffo002]

It is certainly not easy and it would take many years and people would only scold that something is not ready and that it is taking a long time, they would have to start slowly from the beginning of development ... I prefer to work on new airplanes and maps

[Volant_Eagle]

I certainly think it would be cool if this was a feature in CloD. But I have to agree with those saying it’s not worth the amount of effort to develop. . . at least not right now. It might seem that since there’s already crewmember models in the game that are visible externally, it could be a matter of simply allowing them to be visible in FPV and doing a bit of rigging. Unfortunately I don’t think it would actually be that simple. I’m not a programmer or a modeler but I imagine there would be quite a bit of extra work involved. . . at least in getting it to work at an acceptable non-glitchy level.

 

Completely besides the development workload and possible hardware rendering workload issues, there is also some gameplay issues that would need to be worked around. One has already been mentioned which is that the pilot’s body would be obscuring certain instruments, switches, or levers. IRL the pilot can simply move their arm/leg a few inches without even thinking about it. Or they can just reach around themselves. When it’s not actually your own leg and you can only interact with an item by clicking it using a mouse cursor overlaying your point of view, the pilot’s body suddenly becomes quite a hindrance.

 

I realize you could just activate those items via key/button binds but that’s not a complete solution. Not everyone wants to use key binds and sometimes it’s not even an option. Like when using VR and all your HOTAS buttons are already assigned to something. The only solution I can think of for this issue, is to make the body instantly visible-invisible via a key bind. Just like the mirror currently is right now. This would allow people who don’t want the body visible to simply not ever use it, and it would allow those who want it present to momentarily hide it whenever it gets in the way.

 

Another issue is how best to animate the body so that it actually increases immersion instead of detracts from it. This is a bit subjective from person to person, but many would find seeing a body that’s supposed to be theirs, but isn’t moving as they actually move their real body, as rather distracting or maybe even disorientating/sickening. Having motion sensors on every joint of the player’s body so the model moves exactly as the player moves is hardly practical or realistic. So the developers would have to decide what to animate/not animate and how. I don’t think there’s any way to do this which would satisfy everyone.

 

What if someone is left landed and their stick is in their left hand and their throttle quadrant at their right? What if the prop and throttle controls are in separate locations in the aircraft (hurris and spits) but the same location on someone’s rig? Or vice versa? Do you make the model move his hand to flick a switch or push a button or not? Is it worse to have the hand stay on the throttle and the switch/lever magically move? Or worse to have the hand moving to activate the item even though it most likely will move in a manner different to how the player’s actual hand moves? If you do model the movement of the hand, then it would take time for the hand to move from where it is to the button and back again, but you can’t start that animation until the player has already pressed the key or clicked the item. So is ok to have the hand moving after the fact? Does the item get activated when the player selects it or when the model actions it?

 

Obviously there is no right or wrong solution to a lot of these problems because at lot of them are subjective. What may bother /disorient one person may not someone else. And if you change it to please those people then you may break it for someone else. As much as I’d like to see this feature in the game I think it's wise at this point for TFS to avoid it. Too many potential issues for a lot of work when issues are already rampant and work very limited.

 

However, If I were to speculate at this point on how it should be done if it was to be done, then I think I would do as follows: Increase the visual quality of the already present pilot models (not massively but some improvement would be good), rig them so the right hand/arm follows the stick and the left hand/arm follows the throttle, ignore all other potential actions and just leave the hands in those locations, and create a key bind that would instantly toggle the visibility of the body (just like M does for the mirror). I think this would be good enough for most people wanting this feature.

 

Separate from the issue of whether a player sees their own character or not in game, I do think crewmember models should be getting some sort of upgrade given the B-17 is coming. I think this aircraft will be very popular and will necessarily be a very crew centric aircraft. Even if flown by only one person and all the other members are AI, players will constantly be having crewmember models in view. If those models are blurry, stiff, manakins, staring around blankly like a deer in the headlights, then that will detract significantly from the otherwise excellent aircraft model and interesting gameplay.

 

Also, the fact that you can’t see yourself is not that odd when in a single seat fighter, but is kind of weird in multi-crew aircraft; when you can see everyone else but you’re a ghost. In fact I remember scaring the living heck out of myself when I first started trying out bombers. I had been flying fighters for a while and had gotten accustomed to the empty cockpits. Many bombers have the crewmembers spread out a little so seeing an observer or a gunner out ahead wasn’t too weird. But the Ju 88 is a bit tight and has nobody in front of the pilot. When I was looking forward I couldn’t see anyone even myself. I had gotten so accustomed to not seeing people in cockpits that I hadn’t the slightest expectation of seeing anyone at that point. …and then I decided I wanted to look right… I immediately and very unexpectedly had a freaky manakin guy right in my face and I swear I was microns away from screaming like little girl and falling out of my chair… which would’ve been rather embarrassing for a 30yr old man playing a video game… I literally had to wait for my heart-rate to come down before I could continue.

[Mysticpuma]

DCS is seen as a study sim, they have a pilot body in the cockpit.... doesn't seem to affect players ability to play? 

[Buzzsaw]

Unfortunately we do not have the resources to focus on doing this.

 

It is a much lower priority for TF's 3D artists than actually creating new aircraft and objects.

 

Not to mention the fact our programmers would need to write a program to allow the movement implementation... and there would be an FPS hit.

 

If there is someone who has 3D skills in either Blender or 3dsMax/Autodesk, and who is interested in talking to us about the subject, they would be welcome to contact me... but no promises.

[Dagwoodyt]

3 hours ago, Volant_Eagle said:

Separate from the issue of whether a player sees their own character or not in game, I do think crewmember models should be getting some sort of upgrade given the B-17 is coming. I think this aircraft will be very popular and will necessarily be a very crew centric aircraft. Even if flown by only one person and all the other members are AI, players will constantly be having crewmember models in view. If those models are blurry, stiff, manakins, staring around blankly like a deer in the headlights, then that will detract significantly from the otherwise excellent aircraft model and interesting gameplay.

At least in the pilot and waist gunner compartments and in replays it would seem like quite a challenge to animate crew with acceptable detail and movement.  

[Mysticpuma]

@Murleen?

 

 

[Art-J]

10 hours ago, Mysticpuma said:

DCS is seen as a study sim, they have a pilot body in the cockpit.... doesn't seem to affect players ability to play? 

 

Only because you can disable the damn thing easily. Tried it years ago, but restricted acces to controls that needed to be clicked or instruments that needed to be checked (Mustang fuel gauges for example) quickly showed me why it was bad idea. As mentioned above, IRL one can just move his hand/leg out of the way, no such option in sim unless being able to switch body on/off on the fly. 

 

Pilot body can be a neat feature for non-clickable sims, or for these guys who prefer to have everything assigned to their HOTAS plus use some form of info bar / screen so they can afford not seeing all instruments correctly. Otherwise - it's a hindrance unless very specifically programmed to get around aforementioned issues. But this is where available resources come to play...

[Gunfreak]

I've never had an problem with the pilot body in any warbirds in DCS, but then I fly in VR.

In some of the jets you'll need to turn off the body during start up. But generally once in the air. They body can stay. The body does not affect performance at all.

[5th_Barone]

Honestly I never liked it.

I hate it back in BMS days.

And I always disable it in games when possible.

 

It's just personal preference.

Edited October 25, 2023 by 5th_Barone

[Mysticpuma]

Exactly, it's a personal preference and as VR is going to be such a prominent feature of the next update (or sooner), as can be seen by Gunfreak's video (link starts at the point the body is visible), the ability to move your head anywhere, makes the issue of it blocking views, no issue at all.

 

It's a preference, not an option that can't be disabled.

[Gunfreak]

It's a preference for sure. But for me in VR cockpits feel empty without the body. 

Now the ww2 bodies on DCS are simple and not very high detailed. But still better than no body. 

In aircraft like Harrier, Mirage 2000 and F15E the bodies are highly detailed. But that isn't needed. The simple ww2 bodies are good enough.

 

And no you don't need the body to be super complex. You don't need it move it's arms when moving the gear lever or adjusting the gun sight.

The body just helps a lot.

 

 

[343KKT_Kintaro]

Well... I'd love the Dover series includes that option BUT... first, I'd prefer we get better external 3D views of our currently existing pilots, copilots, gunners, etc. They should be 3D-remodelled, retextured, AND they should move and behave more realistically. If TFS's workforce was to be put on them, maybe, for the sake of time-saving, TFS could consider to remake them from scratch (the developers will tell). At any rate, at present, the 3D external views of our crewmen are an urgent priority when compared to Puma's request. That was my opinion only.

 

 

[OBT-Lionel]

I think Team Fusion has more interesting things to do than being a pilot corps.

[Mysticpuma]

No-one said they didn't, but at least they are shutting the subject down because it isn't something others aren't interested in? 

I'm not interested in Multiplayer so I'll ask them not to bother anymore, I mean, this is obviously a place to voice opinions off topic. 

18 hours ago, Buzzsaw said:

If there is someone who has 3D skills in either Blender or 3dsMax/Autodesk, and who is interested in talking to us about the subject, they would be welcome to contact me... but no promises.

 

[AKA_PumpkiCraterman1]

The pilot always has something in my way of seeing the switches and what not.  I turned mine off.

[Mysticpuma]

Even with VR? 

[343KKT_Kintaro]

We are, most of the time, comparing sims that do belong to the same generation... and not precisely a young generation, I mean sims being used now in the 2020s but that started to be developed during the 2000s: DCS, RoF/IL2GB and IL2CoD. These games give me the impression that their respective source codes are too old for the required level of detail and simulation that I'd like to enjoy in a combat flight sim that shows the avatar of my body seating in the cockpit. In the future, data gloves would synchronise the real space that surrounds the player with the 3D space in the virtual cockpit in the game so that the real fingers in the real world would instantly make that the virtual fingers in the simulated cockpit would press the buttons on the instrument panel. In such conditions I'd really love to see my avatar's body in my virtual cockpit. What we do have now in War Thunder or DCS is the "better-than-nothing" thing, with hands not realistically grasping the stick, nor the throttle, not allowing to push the buttons we'd like to push on the dashboard, etc. You may like the better-than-nothing thing as it is in other games but, personally, I don't really want it in Cliffs of Dover. Not at the current level of technology. And, again, taking into account the game's state, the player's body avatar in the cockpit view... really isn't a priority. Please no offence, Puma, but that's what I think.

 

 

[Mysticpuma]

That's fine, but I do want it, at least as an option. 

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

3 hours ago, Mysticpuma said:

Even with VR? 

For me, yes. Sometimes I even remove the control stick to gain access to stuff behind it (like in the Mi-24).

Edited October 25, 2023 by 9./JG52_J-HAT

[PO_Baldrick]

For me VR in cockpit is all that really matters, so I would take a pilot body over any external 3D views of characters, I would even prioritise single seater pilot bodies over improving AI bodies in multi crew aircraft. That is just me and we will have diverse opinions.

 

I do understand it is a resource intensive task and why TF would not wish to overload already limited resource. If it could be outsourced to a third party team or get more volunteer resource then all well and good.

[Buzzsaw]

9 hours ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

Well... I'd love the Dover series includes that option BUT... first, I'd prefer we get better external 3D views of our currently existing pilots, copilots, gunners, etc. They should be 3D-remodelled, retextured, AND they should move and behave more realistically. If TFS's workforce was to be put on them, maybe, for the sake of time-saving, TFS could consider to remake them from scratch (the developers will tell). At any rate, at present, the 3D external views of our crewmen are an urgent priority when compared to Puma's request. That was my opinion only.

 

 

Yes, we are hoping to re-do the external views of the existing co-pilots inside the cockpit as well as the pilot external models visible from outside the aircraft.

 

Faces are a particular focus... the existing faces are a little zombie/catatonic to put it mildly.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

Could not care less if pilot visible in cockpit or not. If an option and feasible to make, go for it. WarThunder has the pilot too, but there you do not have clickable buttons etc. Have not even paid attention to DCS implementation. There I prefer no pilot as it is slow enough to "clcikpit" without a pilot figure in the way. One reason I prefer WW2 planes and up to Korea, no button hell and can quite feasibly map almost all mostly needed buttons to controllers.

[Lorena_Scout]

and any change to implement this awesome and 'simple' feature? 

 

for VR that need to be a must for immersion sake. vr head movement

 

https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx5JOcVP8TSjOfDFFJiLCTWFD3RJyrM8CR?si=SoQUpgoNyHCDFm-i

[Dagwoodyt]

I just check marked the pilot body option and it doesn't seem to be available for the DCS I-16. What is routinely available in DCS though is an ability to adjust pilot eyepoint in very fine increments at any time duriing a mission. With an 8-way hatswitch on throttle assembly I can move eyepoint forward, backward and side to side. The viewpoint increment depends on how long the switch press lasts. By depressing a button on joystick a forward press of the hat switch will lower eyepoint and rearward press raise it. This fexibility is great for VR. During landing approach I can raise seat height to max and move eyepoint far enough forward to be able to view airspeed indicator and VSI via the ports above the I-16 instrument panel. Are there corresponding pilot viewpoint options in the VR beta? If not I would rather have a focus on that type of flexibility than on implementing pilot body for CloD.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Dagwoodyt