Radio Control Intercept

[LF_Mark_Krieger]

Just discovered this absolutelly magnificent, fantastic, atonishing master pierce of work from the comrades of Combat Box server and I still have my jaw on the floor. I was expecting for this for sooooo long... I really do think this is a great job of the community that should be implemented in the game, like the clouds or 4k textures. And not only in the next project. In the actual game. It suposes a giant lap in immersion and realism and think it could be even implemented in some way in single player missions.

What do you think about it?

Edit: I dont have any knowledge about programming and perhaps I have spoken from my desires and it isn't so easy. Anyway if Alonzo could do that in the CB server, there is a way to do something?

Edited August 25, 2023 by LF_Mark_Krieger

[LuftManu]

That is great indeed! ?

I hope team notices this! 

[[CPT]Crunch]

Too much information being gleaned, how is it WWII radar is able to discern the contacts are attackers vs fighters, friendly vs enemy, not to mention precise altitudes?  Range and bearing was about all that could be calculated as it was, yet there's call signs as if modern transponders were onboard the friendlies and enemies are marked by class of type, do not put this in to the game in this format, its way to sophisticated, modern, and detailed. 

 

It took hundreds of people and plotters to make sense out of the raw radar data feeds and make it usable, it certainly was never useful or even capable as an active battlefield GCI.  At this stage of the war Allied aircraft were prohibited from entering active radar zones unless utilizing the  required corridors to pass through the lines or they were shot down.  By this period in the war radar was integral to flak over the front and not much else, all it required was range and bearing to to direct gun batteries to open fire.  Everything entering these radar zones was a target, many an allied plane and even a few famous aces were lost when they accidentally entered those radar kill zones.

 

Nice concept but way over done and useful in a much too modern mode. 

[SYN_Mugue]

What [CPT] Crunch said!

 

 

btw Capton, I love you in milk! lol

[LF_Mark_Krieger]

17 hours ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

Too much information being gleaned, how is it WWII radar is able to discern the contacts are attackers vs fighters, friendly vs enemy, not to mention precise altitudes?  Range and bearing was about all that could be calculated as it was, yet there's call signs as if modern transponders were onboard the friendlies and enemies are marked by class of type, do not put this in to the game in this format, its way to sophisticated, modern, and detailed. 

 

It took hundreds of people and plotters to make sense out of the raw radar data feeds and make it usable, it certainly was never useful or even capable as an active battlefield GCI.  At this stage of the war Allied aircraft were prohibited from entering active radar zones unless utilizing the  required corridors to pass through the lines or they were shot down.  By this period in the war radar was integral to flak over the front and not much else, all it required was range and bearing to to direct gun batteries to open fire.  Everything entering these radar zones was a target, many an allied plane and even a few famous aces were lost when they accidentally entered those radar kill zones.

 

Nice concept but way over done and useful in a much too modern mode. 

I would not differentiate between fighters and attackers, and perhaps actualize it every 20 or 30 seconds instead of 10, but friendly and enemy could be identified by IFF system and information via radio. I'm sure that there were mistakes and accidents, but it worked. Altitude could be calculated and it is not exact anyway, and in the video they say that it's accuracy depends of the range and other factors. Of course it is different at the beginning of the war or at late war, but it is a very interesting idea. Of course much better than the actual visual radar that informs you of the location with exact number of planes in real time. Although it had limitations, radar technology was way more advanced than we usually think in WWII era.

Edited August 25, 2023 by LF_Mark_Krieger

[=BKS=Des1]

I think its awesome and i hope the devs see this, one person can say is too modern in certains aspects and other can say its fine. But in the end if they put this in the game and gives us the options to put the limits we want could be an excellent feature to atract new and old players and amplify new options for SP and MP.

 

Its like for example the HUD in-game and all the advices about engine power, damages, etc. Is not realistic ofc, but is good enough so players afraid of a hard learning curve can access and try the game.

 

 

[Sketch]

RCI System

 

 

 

 

 

Ladies and gentlemen, gather 'round, and lend me your ears! Attention all you brave pilots of the virtual skies! Today, on Combat Box, we proudly introduce to you the Radio Control Intercept system, a marvel that'll whisk you back to the thrilling days of World War II, where the art of air defense coordination was a matter of life and death!

 

This Radio Control Intercept system takes its inspiration from those iconic big map tables used during the Second World War, where the fate of nations hinged upon a swift and accurate response.

 

But, my friends, make no mistake, the radar in this system is no all-knowing oracle. Just like its real-world counterpart, it has its limitations. It's a tool, not a magic wand, and it still demands individual pilot skill and situational awareness.

 

Now, the radar's data-gathering speed is a finicky thing. It dances to the tune of aircraft proximity to radar stations and their flight behavior, just like in the good old days. These radar pings, they provide updates every 5-10 seconds to the Radio Control Intercept system, slowing the flow of information to a crawl.

 

And let me tell you this, folks, the RCI can only give you rough estimates. Aircraft locations and altitudes are approximated to the nearest 1000 meters. You might be guided toward an enemy blip on that screen, but it's up to you and your sharp eyes to pick them out against the vast sky. Oh, and here's the kicker, contacts can stack into a single radar ping, adding to the suspense and the strategic thrill of your missions. Will it be one bogey or a whole swarm?

 

But hold onto your hats, there's more. Those radar stations, they can be taken out by a clever foe, narrowing the RCI's field of vision. Remember, radar can be dodged by flying low, even by your own side. So, adapt your tactics accordingly, my fellow aces!

 

With all these challenges, communication is the lifeline. In the wild chaos of the skies, both friend and foe might initially appear as mere blips on the radar while it gathers its precious data. However, worry not, for friendly pilots on SRS with their established call signs will mostly be identified by the RCI, giving you a leg up in the coordination game.

 

Now, my friends, if your curiosity is piqued and you yearn to know more, watch the attached video.

 

The RCI system will be at your disposal throughout the Apollo Campaign, which isn't a standalone event but an integral part of our server infrastructure. (Just as TAW and FvP are not standalone events but part of our server's ongoing offerings.) So, seize the opportunity to immerse yourself in this exhilarating experience, exclusively on Combat Box!

 

 

 

Like what we at Combat Box do? Consider donating to our Patreon.

[357th_KW]

You guys have really outdone yourselves with this.  For anyone who hasn't experienced this yet, you should really check it out.  Even the AI controller is a game-changing experience, and having a human radar controller interacting with you is on another level.  The first time I used it with @Sketch playing the controller role, it blew my mind.  Even if you're not a multiplayer fan, this is really worth seeing and using.

[MAJ_stug41]

Wow, fantastic. Ive been hankerin to play again as the sun goes down earlier. The IL2 devs ought to copy what you guys do and bring all the neat things youve done for CB to the base game.

[357th_KW]

8 hours ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

It took hundreds of people and plotters to make sense out of the raw radar data feeds and make it usable, it certainly was never useful or even capable as an active battlefield GCI.  At this stage of the war Allied aircraft were prohibited from entering active radar zones unless utilizing the  required corridors to pass through the lines or they were shot down.  By this period in the war radar was integral to flak over the front and not much else, all it required was range and bearing to to direct gun batteries to open fire.  Everything entering these radar zones was a target, many an allied plane and even a few famous aces were lost when they accidentally entered those radar kill zones.

 

There's so much derp here it's hard to know where to start.  Radar wasn't used to vector friendly fighters onto enemies in 1940's Western Europe?   Are you joking?

 

Radar was used extensively, and you can find it mentioned regularly in AARs like this or this or this or this (MEW stands for Microwave Early Warning aka radar, and Nuthouse was a code name for an Allied radar controller).

 

Due to IFF and the ability to plot where friendly units were, it could often discern between friendly and enemy plots.  Obviously it wasn't perfect. 

 

But all of that overlooks the most important thing here, which is that what the new RCI is doing - discerning a target's altitude, heading, speed and being able to identify multiple targets - is IMPOSSIBLE with the basic MCU elements in the mission editor.  This is a literal game changer.  The minor details of what the AI/controller can/can't interpret from the radar can obviously be tweaked and developed further.  But this is a whole new element to the game that the CB guys just invented.

[-332FG-Wim]

Apologies @LF_Mark_Krieger I deleted the video not realizing people had linked to it here (I reuploaded a different version which is the one @Sketch linked)

https://youtu.be/_pry3LfId1k

Eurgh and I just noticed a bug with the render.
 

At 8.30 when I say "I can't see anything outside these circles" I'm referring to the circles that are dashed lines and not the white circles around the radar stations (they are quite faint and hard to see so I'd intended them to come up highlighted in green as I said that, but that effect seems to have been shifted to another part of the video...)

 

I'll try to fix it later today when I'm back at my PC.

Edited August 24, 2023 by -332FG-Wim

[LukeFF]

8 hours ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

Too much information being gleaned, how is it WWII radar is able to discern the contacts are attackers vs fighters, friendly vs enemy, not to mention precise altitudes?  Range and bearing was about all that could be calculated as it was, yet there's call signs as if modern transponders were onboard the friendlies and enemies are marked by class of type, do not put this in to the game in this format, its way to sophisticated, modern, and detailed. 

 

Altitude absolutely could be calculated with WWII-era radar. 

[LF_Mark_Krieger]

8 hours ago, -332FG-Wim said:

Apologies @LF_Mark_Krieger I deleted the video not realizing people had linked to it here (I reuploaded a different version which is the one @Sketch linked)

https://youtu.be/_pry3LfId1k

Eurgh and I just noticed a bug with the render.
 

At 8.30 when I say "I can't see anything outside these circles" I'm referring to the circles that are dashed lines and not the white circles around the radar stations (they are quite faint and hard to see so I'd intended them to come up highlighted in green as I said that, but that effect seems to have been shifted to another part of the video...)

 

I'll try to fix it later today when I'm back at my PC.

No problem! You guys did a wonderful job. Hope the devs apreciate if and import it to the game (if you agree, of course).

[AEthelraedUnraed]

16 hours ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

Too much information being gleaned, how is it WWII radar is able to discern the contacts are attackers vs fighters, friendly vs enemy, not to mention precise altitudes?  Range and bearing was about all that could be calculated as it was, yet there's call signs as if modern transponders were onboard the friendlies and enemies are marked by class of type, do not put this in to the game in this format, its way to sophisticated, modern, and detailed. 

 

It took hundreds of people and plotters to make sense out of the raw radar data feeds and make it usable, it certainly was never useful or even capable as an active battlefield GCI.  At this stage of the war Allied aircraft were prohibited from entering active radar zones unless utilizing the  required corridors to pass through the lines or they were shot down.  By this period in the war radar was integral to flak over the front and not much else, all it required was range and bearing to to direct gun batteries to open fire.  Everything entering these radar zones was a target, many an allied plane and even a few famous aces were lost when they accidentally entered those radar kill zones.

 

Nice concept but way over done and useful in a much too modern mode. 

I don't know too much about Allied radar, but essentially already by the autumn of 1940, German radar had progressed enough that night-time interceptions over the Low Countries were radar-guided. Because it nicely illustrates how these interceptions worked and what a good radar operator could do, here's a partial transcript from one such interceptions on the night of August 11-12, 1942:

Bandit detected, speed up, course 330. Enemy altitude 3200m. Remain at 3100m. [...] Enemy course 120. Enemy approaches head-on. Range 8000m. Turn right heading 120. [to end up behind him] [...] Enemy ahead, range 4500m. Turn 10 degrees left. [...] Another 10 degreees left. Range 2500m. [....]

 

11 hours ago, Sketch said:

RCI System

With all the nice things you guys are developing, I'm almost tempted to consider flying online again Even if your systems work only half as well as intended, they sound like tremendously good fun!

 

On 8/23/2023 at 11:11 PM, LF_Mark_Krieger said:

it could be even implemented in some way in single player missions.

What do you think about it?

Edit: I dont have any knowledge about programming and perhaps I have spoken from my desires and it isn't so easy. Anyway if Alonzo could do that in the CB server, there is a way to do something?

I'm working on a way to do these things in singleplayer missions using flash files, mainly to use in Nachtjagd scenarios. Essentially, I've got onboard radar working already, but there's still a couple of issues that make them unfit for release just yet.

 

I'm working on a couple of other projects too that right now have precedence, so I'm not sure when it'll be finished.

[Juri_JS]

2 hours ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

I'm working on a way to do these things in singleplayer missions using flash files, mainly to use in Nachtjagd scenarios. Essentially, I've got onboard radar working already, but there's still a couple of issues that make them unfit for release just yet.

This sounds very interesting for a nightfighter fan like me.

 

Have you found any information how creating flash files for the game works? I've asked the devs about it some years ago and Han said they might release detailed information in the future, but as far as I know this never happened.

[Alonzo]

All positions and altitudes are approximate, and they are then further rounded/obfuscated/merged before being given to the radar operator. In many ways the data the RCI officers are getting is worse than would have been achieved during the war. Altitudes are only displayed to the nearest 1000m / 2000ft, but real radar was accurate to ~50m altitude. Radars are revealed (triangulated) starting ~30m into each mission and can be destroyed by a lone fighter skilled enough to dodge the AA surrounding them, and radar is only available to the operators where a dish is active and in-range.

 

IFF was widely deployed throughout the war, with a very successful "mark III" by the time Combat Box's campaign takes place: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IFF_Mark_III

 

The radar also loses track of aircraft (both friendlies and enemies) if they maneuver too hard. Aircraft flying close together cannot be distinguished. There are many limitations to the system.

 

We've had a few pilots complain that "instantly the entire enemy team was on me!" and I think that's an exaggeration. First of all, this only works over SRS, and you're lucky to have 10 pilots on the radio at any given time. Second, and believe me when I say this, many pilots cannot spot a contact even if you tell them exactly where to look. Working the radar one evening there was a striking difference between highly skilled pilots who could be given a rough bearing and would immediately spot the bandit, vs other pilots who could be vectored right past an enemy without spotting them! Thirdly, I'd say about 40 - 50% of pilots pick a fighter and then orbit friendly objectives waiting for juicy bombers to come by. They're not on the radio, radar isn't helping them, but they'll jump on anyone attacking that location.

 

If you don't have a human RCI, you can still get help from the radar. We've recently added automatic flight following for any bomber that has declared a target, which will alert the bomber to nearby bandits. It's not as good as a human operator who might be able to vector you around potential threats, but it's way better than flying blind, and will give you an earlier alert than a tail gunner (subject to radar coverage -- remember, radar range is ~72km so it doesn't extend fully into enemy territory).

 

 

[senseispcc]

All true and never forget those how did stay at low or very low altitude and evaded most radar detection (not all or always !

And also once combat was joined the system was absolutely useless. 

And this only on the Western Europe front at the last year of the war. At medium range from radars.

Still, most combat were a question of luck and tactical maneuvering of the formations.

But never forget the single aircraft or pairs to single or pairs combats that were not so rare if you read the many combat reports.

Even mass battle ended fast in small individuals combats, always if you read the reports of those how survived.

My conclusion is, yes, it can be fun to reproduce the “en masse” encounters but never forget that in fighters combat that is the base of the game the single aircraft is your tool to destroy the enemy. 

 

[CIA_Matabo]

Don't like it. I've gone from getting killed now and then to killed 6 times on each map. There is no place to hide. Nice way to fudge up a great server.

[-250H-Ursus_]

On 8/31/2023 at 8:10 AM, CIA_Metabo said:

Don't like it. I've gone from getting killed now and then to killed 6 times on each map. There is no place to hide. Nice way to fudge up a great server.

Man, its a radar... Nothing outside the reality of WW2 specially in 1944-45 where Combat Box takes place oftenly

Just jump into SRS and you will get the benefits when the RCI officer is connected.

Well, kinda i saw you in SRS plenty of times so, is question of just communicate and beign active with the team.

In this Apollo i saw more teamwork in Allied side than in German side, i only did one sortie in German side and there was plenty of ppl, no one in SRS, or at least, not in the same scale as Allies, kinda give me a headache seeing so much ppl in a birthday party instead of teamworking in SRS. 

If that was the USUAL case in all this Apollo, like i could see by just checking SRS before flying, just hope they bring the cake. Well the results of the campaign are no doubts on sight. Allies wiped the floor with Axis 

Edited September 20, 2023 by -332FG-Ursus_