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Posted

I realise this is a known thing, but this has been a problem for years and is the single biggest issue with the game for me. Cliffs is not much of a multiplayer experience these days, and the singleplayer experience is borderline ruined by the AI. Yes, I'm talking about the UFO rolling.
Enemy aircraft usually react to you being behind them by rolling in style that would make Anakin Skywalker jealous. Constant rolls at impossibly high, abruptly changing rates, without loss of co-ordination or energy. Just today, I lined up on multiple 109s heading for bombers, watched them spin like 190s on crack for half a minute as they closed, still out-running me, and then watched them go straight into accurate attack runs. No human I have ever come across in a sim flies like this, or is capable of flying like this, and it is extremely frustrating to go up against. The AI is otherwise quite fun to verse, but when it decides to do this, and it often does, I throw my hands up. It's extremely damaging to my immersion too.
I would probably spend a good deal of time regularly flying singleplayer in Cliffs, but what happens is I remember how much I love about this game, load it up, fly one or two quick missions, and remember why I don't bother. Repeat cycle every few months. 
I spent some time looking to see if there was a commitment to fix this, or other people complaining about it, and I was surprised to find minimal references to it on the forums and, as far as I can tell, no plan to deal with it.
Just to avoid this being a complete bitchfest, I want to re-iterate that I love Cliffs, the ACG campaign I got to fly in it was great, and I really want the game to regain some prominence. Faux-BoB in IL-2 Normandy just does not match the areas covered by the map, or the aircraft you can fly, or the power of the Cliffs engine, and I really need my early war fix. I really think this problem should be high priority. It would drastically improve the quality of the singleplayer experience, ie for the vast majority of the (current and future) playerbase, and would go a long way, at least for me personally, to making Cliffs a viable sim.

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Posted
9 hours ago, ACG_Dubsy said:

I realise this is a known thing, but this has been a problem for years and is the single biggest issue with the game for me. Cliffs is not much of a multiplayer experience these days, and the singleplayer experience is borderline ruined by the AI. Yes, I'm talking about the UFO rolling.
Enemy aircraft usually react to you being behind them by rolling in style that would make Anakin Skywalker jealous. Constant rolls at impossibly high, abruptly changing rates, without loss of co-ordination or energy. Just today, I lined up on multiple 109s heading for bombers, watched them spin like 190s on crack for half a minute as they closed, still out-running me, and then watched them go straight into accurate attack runs. No human I have ever come across in a sim flies like this, or is capable of flying like this, and it is extremely frustrating to go up against. The AI is otherwise quite fun to verse, but when it decides to do this, and it often does, I throw my hands up. It's extremely damaging to my immersion too.
I would probably spend a good deal of time regularly flying singleplayer in Cliffs, but what happens is I remember how much I love about this game, load it up, fly one or two quick missions, and remember why I don't bother. Repeat cycle every few months. 
I spent some time looking to see if there was a commitment to fix this, or other people complaining about it, and I was surprised to find minimal references to it on the forums and, as far as I can tell, no plan to deal with it.
Just to avoid this being a complete bitchfest, I want to re-iterate that I love Cliffs, the ACG campaign I got to fly in it was great, and I really want the game to regain some prominence. Faux-BoB in IL-2 Normandy just does not match the areas covered by the map, or the aircraft you can fly, or the power of the Cliffs engine, and I really need my early war fix. I really think this problem should be high priority. It would drastically improve the quality of the singleplayer experience, ie for the vast majority of the (current and future) playerbase, and would go a long way, at least for me personally, to making Cliffs a viable sim.

We are working on improving the fidelity of the AI behaviour... especially roll behaviour.  Will be part of the TF 6.0 release.

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No.54_Reddog
Posted

Toning down the advanced flying slider I think helped back in the day with this but I don't know what else you lose. 

Posted
6 hours ago, Buzzsaw said:

We are working on improving the fidelity of the AI behaviour... especially roll behaviour.  Will be part of the TF 6.0 release.

TF 6.0 details apparently cannot be announced without Fulqrum approval. What has been acknowledged regarding TF 6.0 to date has not made mention of "AI behavior" as far as I am aware.

Posted
9 hours ago, Buzzsaw said:

We are working on improving the fidelity of the AI behaviour... especially roll behaviour.  Will be part of the TF 6.0 release.

Glad to hear, thank you for the response

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Posted
10 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

TF 6.0 details apparently cannot be announced without Fulqrum approval. What has been acknowledged regarding TF 6.0 to date has not made mention of "AI behavior" as far as I am aware.

There is a difference between 'Content' and code in the promotions world.

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Posted

AI is the... ;) 

 

cropped-image-of-the-elephant-under-the-

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Posted (edited)

I've always felt that AI fighter pilots were all former stunt pilots. The Bf 109 that spins like a pinwheel inches away from the sea is impressive to watch but frustrating to engage.

 

Edited by Feldgrun
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Posted

I have the same frustration, Dubsy.  I love the Battle of Britain scenario, but the AI ruins single player.  Why don't the AI just have scalable experience levels, from rookie to ace?  This is the only sim I've ever played that didn't have that.

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Posted
2 hours ago, Randy_Leggett said:

I have the same frustration, Dubsy.  I love the Battle of Britain scenario, but the AI ruins single player.  Why don't the AI just have scalable experience levels, from rookie to ace?  This is the only sim I've ever played that didn't have that.

The game has the most scalable experience levels of any Simulation out there.

 

There are 10 skill levels for pilots... from basic flying skills to gunnery, ability to spot the enemy, etc. etc.  These are rated from 1-10.

 

All of these are customizable in the Full Mission Builder when creating missions.  So you can basically create a unique pilot... there are an infinite number of combinations.

 

Or if you don't want to customize, you can select one of four different basic experience levels... from Rookie/Average/Veteran/Ace.

 

Many mission builders do not understand how these skill levels work... so for example, they set 'Basic Flying Skill' too low, and the pilot can't even land his aircraft.   Even inexperienced pilots should have a 'Basic Flying Skill' up in the area of 7 points out of 10 so they can take off and land.

Posted

It's relatively easy to test the merits of AI skill level settings if you can set up a simple mission in the FMB. A 2v2 mission can give you a good idea of the usefulness of the skill level settings. Give your wingie max in all categories and both enemy AI moderate skills in all categories. Do multiple runs of the mission and note how long your wingie lasts in fights over the Channel.

Posted

I see now.  Thanks, I'll work on it.

  • 4 weeks later...
Posted
On 8/15/2023 at 10:36 PM, Buzzsaw said:

The game has the most scalable experience levels of any Simulation out there.

 

There are 10 skill levels for pilots... from basic flying skills to gunnery, ability to spot the enemy, etc. etc.  These are rated from 1-10.

 

All of these are customizable in the Full Mission Builder when creating missions.  So you can basically create a unique pilot... there are an infinite number of combinations.

 

Or if you don't want to customize, you can select one of four different basic experience levels... from Rookie/Average/Veteran/Ace.

 

Many mission builders do not understand how these skill levels work... so for example, they set 'Basic Flying Skill' too low, and the pilot can't even land his aircraft.   Even inexperienced pilots should have a 'Basic Flying Skill' up in the area of 7 points out of 10 so they can take off and land.

 

Buzzsaw: "CloD has TEN experience levels! You can access them in a separate application but it does not matter because the game offers TEN skill levels!"

Also Buzzsaw: "Well, you should use only 4 levels but it is better to stick to one of the two skill levels to make AI behave somewhat realistically in the air."

 

@Buzzsaw, why do you even keep level 1-6 in game if AI can't properly land and take off with those settings??‍♂️

 

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Posted

Also, are the AI skill levels only available in the FMB? Not in QM?

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Posted

Hi jcole,

The skill levels are all modifiable in FMB. As far as I know, not able to do so in QM BUT......

Using something like Windows Explorer one can copy and transfer Campaign and QM missions into your MISSIONS folder.

Once in the folder you can use FMB to edit and alter to your hearts delight, test the mission and then transfer it back into the QM or Campaign folder.

As far as the AI behavour goes..... yes it can be a bit quirky for some aircraft but in most cases I have always managed to find a balance in FMB by using the sliders in the skill level settings. Using the Rookie, Average, Veteran & Ace settings will give a certain degree of skill to the AI pilot but I find that to get the best out of the AI, I modify the 4 basic settings [ again, different for different aircraft ] to get what I want.

Posted
1 hour ago, Bf109Ace said:

Hi jcole,

The skill levels are all modifiable in FMB. As far as I know, not able to do so in QM BUT......

Using something like Windows Explorer one can copy and transfer Campaign and QM missions into your MISSIONS folder.

Once in the folder you can use FMB to edit and alter to your hearts delight, test the mission and then transfer it back into the QM or Campaign folder.

As far as the AI behavour goes..... yes it can be a bit quirky for some aircraft but in most cases I have always managed to find a balance in FMB by using the sliders in the skill level settings. Using the Rookie, Average, Veteran & Ace settings will give a certain degree of skill to the AI pilot but I find that to get the best out of the AI, I modify the 4 basic settings [ again, different for different aircraft ] to get what I want.

There is no skill setting related to AI "drone" behavior that I am aware of. Seems one would have to test skill level settings multiple times in the FMB to assure the desired behavior for both friendly and enemy AI. I don't see much potential to get any major changes in AI behaviors whether TF 6 or TF 10. The "can" will likely always get "kicked" ?

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Posted

Hi Dagwoodyt,

Yeah the 'drone' behavior, which kicks in usually after combat when enemy aircraft return to base, is as you say, not editable. One of CoD's little quirks.

Be a good idea if the Devs sorted that out one day....................

Skill settings, seem to me, are all editable and have the desired effect before and during  combat, but as you say one has to " test skill level settings multiple times in the FMB"

 

 

 

Posted
4 hours ago, Bf109Ace said:

Hi Dagwoodyt,

Yeah the 'drone' behavior, which kicks in usually after combat when enemy aircraft return to base, is as you say, not editable. One of CoD's little quirks.

Be a good idea if the Devs sorted that out one day....................

Skill settings, seem to me, are all editable and have the desired effect before and during  combat, but as you say one has to " test skill level settings multiple times in the FMB"

 

 

 

So if I make a 2v2 mission from the "low level - even" QM, flying Spitfire 1A 100 Oct, make my wingie an ace and fly against two early 109's with all skill levels at 5 to 7, I and my wingie should be in good shape?

Posted
53 minutes ago, Dagwoodyt said:

So if I make a 2v2 mission from the "low level - even" QM, flying Spitfire 1A 100 Oct, make my wingie an ace and fly against two early 109's with all skill levels at 5 to 7, I and my wingie should be in good shape?

Depends if you're any good really. No point calling out the AI if you're utterly useless and couldn't hit a barn from the inside ?

 

Posted
56 minutes ago, No.54_Reddog said:

Depends if you're any good really. No point calling out the AI if you're utterly useless and couldn't hit a barn from the inside ?

 

If that's the issue those users probably don't stay long enough to bother learning the FMB and that still leaves the issue of how the "ace" wingie fares.  ?

Posted

Thanks, guys. Think I got my answer……

Posted
On 9/13/2023 at 6:29 PM, Bf109Ace said:

Yeah the 'drone' behavior, which kicks in usually after combat when enemy aircraft return to base, is as you say, not editable. One of CoD's little quirks.

Be a good idea if the Devs sorted that out one day....................

I may be in the minority here, but I prefer it. I wish there was more "drone" AI settings. It's more realistic that way. The majority of fighter vs fighter Axis kills in WWII were when one pilot snuck up on another from above (Erich Hartmann) or below (Saburo Sakai). When AI always knows where you are, and acts accordingly, it's unrealistic. 

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Posted
1 hour ago, Feldgrun said:

I may be in the minority here, but I prefer it. I wish there was more "drone" AI settings. It's more realistic that way. The majority of fighter vs fighter Axis kills in WWII were when one pilot snuck up on another from above (Erich Hartmann) or below (Saburo Sakai). When AI always knows where you are, and acts accordingly, it's unrealistic. 

No idea how accurate it is but I recently read that "Over 85% of WWII pilots never saw who shot them down", regardless I think surprise was a key factor as you say.

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Posted
15 hours ago, Feldgrun said:

I may be in the minority here, but I prefer it. I wish there was more "drone" AI settings. It's more realistic that way. The majority of fighter vs fighter Axis kills in WWII were when one pilot snuck up on another from above (Erich Hartmann) or below (Saburo Sakai). When AI always knows where you are, and acts accordingly, it's unrealistic. 

If you want AI opposition with a lack of situational awareness, there is a modifier in the settings to adjust their ability to spot opponents.

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Posted

Ive never learned the FMB as i preferred MP in clod but I hear often about what people can do in the FMB to address their woes. What I dont understand is that, if its as simple a procedure as touted, why in 4 years the devs have not apparently done it to the Quick missions? 

 

This is probably one of the first things a new player will use and effectively forms a shop window for the game. If the experience isnt good in missions supposedly crafted by the devs to showcase the product why would anyone bother delving deeper?

 

 

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Posted
6 hours ago, Buzzsaw said:

If you want AI opposition with a lack of situational awareness, there is a modifier in the settings to adjust their ability to spot opponents.

Thanks, but I have yet to delve into the FMB. It looks daunting at first glance. Is there a good reference video? I've watched a couple that address bits of it.

 

I think we'd be more excited about minor changes in quick missions. I've been pretty impressed with GB's QMB, but I do miss 1946 for its simplicity.

Posted
1 hour ago, BOO said:

Ive never learned the FMB as i preferred MP in clod but I hear often about what people can do in the FMB to address their woes. What I dont understand is that, if its as simple a procedure as touted, why in 4 years the devs have not apparently done it to the Quick missions? 

 

This is probably one of the first things a new player will use and effectively forms a shop window for the game. If the experience isnt good in missions supposedly crafted by the devs to showcase the product why would anyone bother delving deeper?

 

I guess we need to equate addressing their woes with personal preference. Having AI with a lack of situational awareness is something you can tune in the FMB but if this is the default quick mission stance there is risk the AI are deemed too dumb.

 

It would be nice if as part of the aircraft selection in quick missions we could select some basic AI capability though. That said the FMB is more accessible than it first might appear.

Posted
Just now, PO_Baldrick said:

I guess we need to equate addressing their woes with personal preference. Having AI with a lack of situational awareness is something you can tune in the FMB but if this is the default quick mission stance there is risk the AI are deemed too dumb.

 

It would be nice if as part of the aircraft selection in quick missions we could select some basic AI capability though. That said the FMB is more accessible than it first might appear.

I would be prone to agree however this stance comes from a place where one hs already learned to love and forgive. I beleive that, if all is as it us said to be, a happy medium could be acheived in most missions with a few additional varriations added from dumb as mud to AWACS connected gameplay. 

 

In terms of the "ooo is that the time?" switch to drone mode, given its predicabily currently, a limitiation of the fuel in the player aircraft could resonably proide a good reason to break off using  a believable perameter (though this tends to fall apart as 6 hurrcances crash around you on landing).   

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