Se5a Viper Windsock Datafile - Pilot Reports.

[ST_Catchov]

There was an old, extensive thread on the Se5a FM issues now lost somewhere in the wormholes of time so I shall not resurrect it because a) it is forbidden/considered bad form to do so and b) 1C is under new management. So, a fresh start then ....

 

Firstly, my curiosity has been piqued by recent talk of Windsock Datafile pilot reports being responsible for changing the Siemens-Schuckert FM and requests for the same consideration in relation to the N28 FM. This is an encouraging step forward as the previous management seemed only interested in computational aeronautical calculations in preference to pilot reports/anecdotes.

 

And so, I have made it reasonably clear in the past that I'm not a fan of the Se5a Viper FM, in particular the rapid loss of energy in any maneuver. Loss of energy in any aircraft is understandable of course however it is the rapidity of it that is alarming.

 

Does anyone have any Windsock pilot reports or other data that can shed any light on this peculiarity one way or the other? I would hope that the Viper could be tweaked a bit if there is compelling evidence that this bewildering energy loss is not a thing or at the very least it has been exaggerated.

[US103_Baer]

13 hours ago, ST_Catchov said:

Does anyone have any Windsock pilot reports or other data that can shed any light on this peculiarity one way or the other? I would hope that the Viper could be tweaked a bit if there is compelling evidence that this bewildering energy loss is not a thing or at the very least it has been exaggerated.

 

WW1 Aircraft Performance, Anders F Jonsson, ISBN 9789198774801.

 

https://www.lulu.com/shop/anders-f-jonsson/ww1-aircraft-performance/hardcover/product-yp6g8r.html?q=ww1+aircraft+performance&page=1&pageSize=4

 

It's all there, including zoom height retention for all the aircraft modeled. You'll be amazed how badly they all zoom! References to actual test data are included for comparison also. 

Of course I know you know ?, just another referral to this superb piece of work from @Holtzauge It's very comprehensive and, honestly, should be purchase #1 for anyone interested in WW1 aircraft performance. 

 

All the planes need revising even if there are some worse than others.

It's clear now that while there are a couple of aircraft that underperform the models (notably the N28), most overperform, especially as altitude increases.

This has created a distorted view of relative in-game performance.

 

I guess its human nature to feel that the under performers need improving,  whereas in reality,  it's the OPs that need the reality check.

Edited May 31, 2023 by US103_Baer

[BMA_Hellbender]

8 hours ago, ST_Catchov said:

And so, I have made it reasonably clear in the past that I'm not a fan of the Se5a Viper FM, in particular the rapid loss of energy in any maneuver. Loss of energy in any aircraft is understandable of course however it is the rapidity of it that is alarming.

 

Does anyone have any Windsock pilot reports or other data that can shed any light on this peculiarity one way or the other? I would hope that the Viper could be tweaked a bit if there is compelling evidence that this bewildering energy loss is not a thing or at the very least it has been exaggerated.

 

It's hard to do an apples to apples comparison for the SE5a using Windsock Datafiles, which we now know is an acceptable source.

 

I have the SE5a Windsock Special and SE5/SE5a Squadrons Windsock Special, but it mostly mentions teething issues with the Wolseley Viper, nothing about its fighting prowess. It does mention that it was considered obsolete by 1921. As we know it was phased out in favour of the Sopwith Snipe.

 

Other than that there is the SE5(non-a) Windsock Datafile 30, which I don't have (and is notoriously hard to find), and I believe it mostly mentions the fact that the early 150hp SE5 was unable to climb as high as the Albatros scouts. There might also be some notes on its overall maneuverability compared to the Albatros, but the only thing I ever remember reading of the SE5(a?)'s maneuverability and dogfighting capability, is that it was worse than the Sopwith Dolphin. If you're looking for a quote specifically regarding its zoom climb and energy retention, that may be hard to find.

 

As it stands our current SE5a is very, very fast, perhaps faster than it has any right to be -- especially at sea level. I'd also prefer to see an SE5a that is slightly slower, but holds energy better and has a slightly better turn (relative to the Albatros, not to the DVII), but it's not an unusable machine in its current form, and its rate of climb is quite accurate.

[ZachariasX]

The N.28 datafile is available, it's 40 quid:

https://www.windsockdatafilespecials.co.uk/datafile-36-nieuport-28-1073-p.asp

[BMA_Hellbender]

1 hour ago, ZachariasX said:

The N.28 datafile is available, it's 40 quid:

https://www.windsockdatafilespecials.co.uk/datafile-36-nieuport-28-1073-p.asp

That one I have, it’s the SE5 I don’t as it’s out of print. The SE5a Special and SE5a Squadrons special I have as well, but doesn’t have any relevant information.

Edited May 31, 2023 by =IRFC=Hellbender

[ST_Catchov]

13 hours ago, =IRFC=Hellbender said:

If you're looking for a quote specifically regarding its zoom climb and energy retention, that may be hard to find.

 

That's exactly what I was hoping for. Bummer.

 

                                                                                           ~   important notes   ~

 

• If the real Se5a Viper had such poor energy retention (as depicted in FC) it would have been highlighted by WW1 pilots during the war.
• There is (apparently?) no documented evidence nor complaints of such traits by WW1 pilots during the war.
• Ditto post-war pilots.

                                                                                               ~  conclusion  ~

 

• The Se5a Viper did not have poor energy retention.

                                                                                               

                                                                                                  ~  solution  ~

 

• Devs to correct the FC Se5a Viper FM accordingly. 

 

[BMA_Hellbender]

46 minutes ago, ST_Catchov said:

 

That's exactly what I was hoping for. Bummer.

 

                                                                                           ~   important notes   ~

 

• If the real Se5a Viper had such poor energy retention (as depicted in FC) it would have been highlighted by WW1 pilots during the war.
• There is (apparently?) no documented evidence nor complaints of such traits by WW1 pilots during the war.
• Ditto post-war pilots.

                                                                                               ~  conclusion  ~

 

• The Se5a Viper did not have poor energy retention.

                                                                                               

                                                                                                  ~  solution  ~

 

• Devs to correct the FC Se5a Viper FM accordingly. 

 

Let's be clear: the SE5a was a monster compared to anything the Germans could field until the internally braced Fokkers appeared on the scene. Regular dogfights between the SE5a Viper and Albatros wouldn't even have been that common, as the Albatros was more or less phased out by the time the Viper was available in any number, and the (Clerget) Camel was getting phased out.

 

The current SE5a vs. Fokker D.VII (vanilla) is pretty much spot on, but nobody flies the D.VII because it's garbage compared to the Albatros and Pfalz, which are slower but have better turn and energy retention (bit of a stretch, but okay, they're slow), or especially the Fokker Dr.I, the dead slow king of turn and energy. And of course the SE5a can't realistically compete against the Fokker D.VIIF. There's a reason the RAF went back to Sopwith and were prepared to strap a rotating mass of 230hp to a beer keg with wings.

 

It's almost if... I don't know. Maybe a plane is missing? Like the most common Fokker D.VII the SE5a Viper would have faced in the late Spring / Summer of 1918?

 

I wouldn't overly compress myself about it.

 

 

[ST_Catchov]

6 hours ago, =IRFC=Hellbender said:

I wouldn't overly compress myself about it.

 

I was devastated, absolutely gutted when the devs nerfed the Se5a in RoF in the guise of fixing the "glass engine". Oh yes, I was one of the proponents advocating to correct the ridiculous glass engine, even going to Gene DeMarco for his opinion. But, can you imagine my horror when the result of my protestations was a limp noodle, (still masculinely rampant in looks yet with the beauty of a woman's caress of course), a sickly dog with the energy of a scurvied sailor.

 

And this monstrosity was ported right into FC!

 

And you ask me to compress myself! 

 

It ruined my life. 

 

 

[No.23_Starling]

Hey dude, I posted a thread last month around confusions on the SE5a engines. To be clear, the best performing version was the high compression HS8Bc-e used by McCudden in early 1918. The Viper didn’t output more HP - it was a modified spad VII HS8A 150hp engine. The reason it was important was because it wasn’t geared and mechanically reliable, and could be mass produced in Britain without getting in line for the French HS8B:

As for energy retention and turn, if you read @Holtzauge’s book, the bigger issue is the turn and energy retention of the Dva, Diiia, and even DVII (at lower altitudes) being too good.
 

It’s a good example of why you can’t just rework one FM without balancing across the board. We have the same issue now with the Snipe’s more modern FM.

The most broken FM however is still the N28.

[ST_Catchov]

2 hours ago, US103_Rummell said:

Hey dude, I posted a thread last month around confusions on the SE5a engines.

 

Thanks dude. I like your work about engines and stuff. ? 

 

Yes, I'm aware of Holtzy's conclusions regarding overperforming crates and the dilemma that creates. But to keep things simple, in this thread I'm only concerned about the poor energy retention due to the dramatic rev loss of the 200HP Viper Se5a as we have in-game. And not just in sustained turns. She just bleeds revs like oil in a '66 Ford Cortina 2-door "Coupe". 

 

I'm not sure if @Holtzauge zeroed in exactly on all aspects of this specific feature? Which is why I was hoping Windsock Datafile documents may shed some light, alas to no avail. In any case, I believe her performance in all maneuvers (apart from running away) is negatively affected by this issue. Not exactly scientific sure but she can't be that bad surely? Just a little tweak for her is better than re-doing all the overperformers. Imagine the outrage! Brutal. It doesn't bear thinking about.