Any FW190A5 duel strategy?

[bycomet]

I played duel with ACE AI. I used FW190A5, AI was yak1. Yak1 turned very fast. If I turn slowly to maintain speed, yak1 will quickly come around behind me, and if I turn fast, my speed drops and easy to spin.
I know FW190 has a good roll rate, how can I take advantage of this in duel? Are there any other features of the FW190 to help with dogfighting?

Historically, other than ground attack and BnZ, was FW190 used to fight against fighter aircrafts?

[ShamrockOneFive]

The FW190 isn't really a dueling fighter airplane. Its a hunter.

 

The strategy that was employed in the war and that also works in IL-2 is that you stay fast and preferably above your opponent. You spot them, swoop in at speed, take a shot, disengage and then repeat as often as is needed. You never get in close for more than a few seconds. Once you start turning at slow speeds its more of a dogfight and something that an airplane like the Yak-1 excels at.

 

In a 1v1 in the Fw190 I'd make a firing pass head on if possible (one of the few airplanes where I would consider doing that) and then extend away. Use speed to gently climb and gain an energy advantage over the Yak-1.  Then turn around and reengage, hopefully with an advantage, and then again repeat as needed.

 

The roll rate is tremendously useful in this kind of fight because you can very quickly change your lift vector and ensure that you have options on the disengage to present minimal or no ability for the enemy to return fire.

[Dr_Molem]

With 190 you don't fight like if u were flying a 109 i mean trying to vampirize your opponent energy by pushing sustained vertical turns and such things.

 

On defensive you have to principally rely on scissors, they can be horizontal, vertical, and even mix of both. Play with throttle and flaps during scissor to maximise your chance to make your opponent overshoot at the propice moment, then the 190's big guns do the job.

 

21 minutes ago, bycomet said:

Historically, other than ground attack and BnZ, was FW190 used to fight against fighter aircrafts?

 

Of course it did.

 

[357th_KW]

I’d argue that historically, the Luftwaffe’s tactics didn’t change at all going from 109 to 190 - they generally tried to avoid dogfights with the British fighters.

[[CPT]Crunch]

I'd argue our simulated world is not historical, and history never plays out in simulation.  Develop your own tactics to adapt, that's the historically relevant thing to do.  Because if you change the simulation your currently using much of your tactical trick bag won't work in their either.

[LukeFF]

6 hours ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

I'd argue our simulated world is not historical, and history never plays out in simulation.  Develop your own tactics to adapt, that's the historically relevant thing to do.  Because if you change the simulation your currently using much of your tactical trick bag won't work in their either.

 

If you try to engage in turn fights in the Fw 190, regardless of the model, you will quickly end up dead. Same thing in the real world. 

[Jaws2002]

36 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

If you try to engage in turn fights in the Fw 190, regardless of the model, you will quickly end up dead. Same thing in the real world. 

 

The Russian 1942 report disagrees with you. The report clearly states that the 190 will usually try a headon pass and then go into horizontal turning fight. 

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt/russian-combat-fw190.html

 

There are also plenty British and US reports that tell us the 190 was a fighter that could do pretty much everything a fighter should be able to do. The difference was small enough that the fast roll rate of the 190, allowed it to initiate the turn faster and keep up.

The whole idea that 190 couldn't turn is result of the massive, after war, "Nothing good came out of nazi Germany" propaganda campaign.

 

Edited May 1, 2023 by Jaws2002

[DD_Arthur]

5 minutes ago, Jaws2002 said:

The whole idea that 190 couldn't turn is result of the massive, after war, "Nothing good came out of nazi Germany" propaganda campaign.

Hardly. There was no “after the war propaganda campaign “.

Why would there be?
 

Germany and it’s people were prostrate before the allies.
They had to be fed and sheltered. Pretty soon it became apparent Britain and France were in no position to do this and Germany would have to be reconstituted to pay it’s way, feed itself and play it’s part in fending off Uncle Joe.

 

Remarkably, at this time no one gave two hoots about the turn performance of an obsolete aeroplane.

 

 

[PatrickAWlson]

I don't really fully agree with any of the above.  The idea that the 190 couldn't turn and was limited to diving passes is IMHO false.  However, engaging in a sustained horizontal turn fight in a 190 vs a Yak is not a good idea.

 

Good things about the 190:

Great roll rate

Great high speed control

Great instantaneous turn

Great firepower

Great ammo load

Rugged

Good speed

Good acceleration

 

Bad things about the 190:

High weight to lift ratio means bleeds speed in sustained turns.

Performance degrades above 20K feet.

 

In this game we can mostly ignore the second problem, but not the first.  So how to fly in the FW190:

Mostly like @ShamrockOneFive said, but with one significant caveat: your attack doesn't have to be a straight line.  Get your speed up.  Predict where your target is going to be.  Make a single turn to bring your guns across his path (Great instantaneous turn, Great roll rate).  Put up a wall of lead in front of him (Great firepower, Great ammo load).  Straighten out, regain speed and try again (Good speed, Good acceleration).

 

How 190 pilots really fought (I think)
See above, but now add teamwork.  Given its rugged build and outstanding firepower, a 190 could generally blow an enemy out of the sky faster than vice vera.  This makes the 190 a fantastic plane for team flying.  The AI is the AI, but this can still work.  If you are in a many on many fight, try to use drag and bag tactics if you get into trouble.  Your speed can keep you safe from many planes and hopefully your AI mates clue in and pick off a few of the bad guys chasing you.

 

I don't think that any of the above is unique to the 190.  Lots of pilots in lots of planes tried similar tactics that emphasized teamwork (see Thach weave).  The thing about the 190 is that it excelled in this kind of fighting.

[ShamrockOneFive]

7 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

Mostly like @ShamrockOneFive said, but with one significant caveat: your attack doesn't have to be a straight line.  Get your speed up.  Predict where your target is going to be.  Make a single turn to bring your guns across his path (Great instantaneous turn, Great roll rate).  Put up a wall of lead in front of him (Great firepower, Great ammo load).  Straighten out, regain speed and try again (Good speed, Good acceleration).

 

I should have been more descriptive. I'll often turn as you describe with a sharp instantaneous turn to lead a target before rolling my lift vector away as I pass by.

 

Everything you wrote there is pretty much what I do with the Fw190 and is good advice. Do as Patrick does!

[Guest]

Ya'll talk about RL as if every pilot back then was a master of his machine. Most of them weren't so it's pretty irrelevant what machines opposed them.

[Lusekofte]

I currently fly blazing steppe campaign. You fly yak 1 and Get beaten a lot by skilled 109 ai that use climbing turns. 
fly yak in that campaign and you quick enough learn it’s shortcomings. 
190 is speed and weapons. Loose any of those you are no good. It should also have a good roll rate. But I am not sure if devs have improved it

Edited May 1, 2023 by Lusekofte

[PB0_Roll]

FW190 vs Yaks is super fun in 2 vs 2, 190s can use their speed to escape and if yaks try to follow each 190 can quickly dispatch his wingman's follower. Many vs many is trickier because efficent drag n bag needs good SA.

 

In a 1 v ? , flying the solo 190, I'd use my speed to get back into friendly line and get my opponent(s) outnumbered.

 

However, 190A vs P-47 is fun in 1 v 1, and 190A vs F-4U would be fun too if we had it.

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

The only thing I really find usable against 190s is that they lose energy quickly in turn fights and are slow to rebuild energy except in a pretty strong dive.  Other than that, 190s do almost everything better than ANY Allied plane at high energy and almost everything worse at low energy. (at least in this sim.)   

 

Usually, it's probably best to fly 190s more gently with wider turns and be patient until you can get a good slashing shot on the enemy instead of trying to directly get on their 6. 

Unfortunately, in single player, AI is almost always acutely aware of your relative position and its own orientation making it easy for the AI to pull max-rate last-second breaks right before you can get them into a shooting solution.   

 

If you're fighting a 190 though, the best bet is to make them turn, twist, side slip and wiggle until their energy is burnt.  At that point, even if you're also slow but, on their 6, you should (in most Allied planes) have the advantage of both acceleration and deceleration in the engine throttle/power/thrust-to-weight department.  Just don't be low energy with them on your 6.  If you try to throttle up and run, you'll most likely just put yourself into a shooting range that's easier to hit with the 190 with less risk of being too close.