New Engine Timers

[Crocogator]

Just in case people didn't know, in the last patch 5.101, engine timer recovery (but not limits) were changed. What I'd like to know / disseminate is how they were changed. Here's the source:

39. Recovery time of time limited engine modes have been adjusted (now the required recovery time is proportional to the time limit itself);

 

here's what @Gavrick says:

 

Quote

A little clarification about engine timers.
Now all engines with a limit of 1 minute - have the same cooldown, with a limit of 3 minutes - the cooldown is different, but also the same among themselves, engines with a limit of 5 minutes are also the same ... and so on.
Prior to this, two motors with the same timer could have different recovery times.
It's a small step forward, yes. But still, the mechanics of the timers should become a little clearer for the players.

 

Now for some examples.

In the case of the La5FN, boosted power had a 10min limit. Is this now a 10min recovery, in proportion to the limit?
In the case of the 109F2, does that 1min 1.42 ata limit now have a recovery of 1min?

Finally, do the recovery timers work the same for combat power? I also assume that emergency power timers still also use combat power timers, as before, and that combat recovery also entails emergency recovery.

Thanks to anyone who clears this up.

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

 

I explain how they recharge in that post. Looks like anything with a 1 min WEP timer, and all 109s recharge in 5 mins. All the other WEP timers from all 4 nations are 10 mins so far.

 

Combat has different timers. 109s/190s recharge their 30 mins in 15 min. The 110 G2 recharges in 20 mins, the E2 is 15. The USA 15 minute timer recharges in 15 mins, and the RAF 60 min timer recharges in 30 min. 

 

I've only tested 2 or 3 planes in each category, so there could be more exceptions (like the 110 G2), but they're supposed to have standardized the timers, so the pattern should hold, and I don't wanna test all the dozens of planes individually.

 

Edit

 

I forgot to answer your other question. Using emergency will still also eat into your combat timer. The rate it eats your combat timer will still vary plane by plane and is a whole new level of headache vs the recovery timers. For example 1 minute of WEP in an A8 will only eat around 30 secs of combat time, while in the default A6 1 min of WEP will eat around 5 min mins of combat. 

 

WEP will recharge at the same rate while using either combat or continuous, and both combat and WEP will recharge at the same time in continuous.

Edited April 1, 2023 by =MERCS=JenkemJunkie

[CountZero]

If they bather to fix bug with techchat messages that inform player when timer expired and when it got recovered not showing up when techchat is on, all this would not be problem. You would not need to know how long is timer or how long is recover time, like real pilots didnt have to care about them, you can just see it as message, like any other trivial stuff that is les important but shown in techchat.

 

 It's a small step forward, yes. But still, the mechanics of the timers should become a little clearer for the players

 

But for some reason they keep avoiding this fix for years... that fix would clear up all confusion if that was their intention with this change to duration of recovering time in last update, as most play online with techchat on if you look at servers, and in SP you can just turn of timers with unbrakable option, so this is no issu for SP, only MP problem as this is where you maximise you airplanes performances and where it mathers to know timers times.

 

Why is techchat message that my engine is owerheating important to show in it, when i can see its overheating from white smooke from my radiators or from gauge in cockpit build to inform real ww2 pilot about engine overheating. BUT messages that tell me when my recover/expire timer is on or off dont show up. Recover/expire timer dont have gauge in cocpit, as its invented thing for game, they dont show player any other way in game when they are on or of, BUT they kill engine if player makes mistake. This is mutch more important thing to be shown in techchat , and work correctly, then any other engine related info techchat shows.

 

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by CountZero

[the_emperor]

yes, I big issue is, that we have no way of telling how much WEP and/or combat time has been used up or has been recovered. pair that with not working techno chat...

having the option to turn off that mechanic (just the option) or have the option (again just the option) for an artifical "energy bar" would be nice (not very simulation like but so is the engine timer mechanic itself in my opinion)

 

[Blutaar]

Please give us the option to disable the timers without making the engine indestructable! Options, whats wrong with options? Damn, after all these years. Frustrating!

[Crocogator]

21 hours ago, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

I explain how they recharge in that post

You don't really. If, from that post alone, I wanted to figure out what the recovery timer is for the A-20 (for example,) I would have no hope. I appreciate you trying, but we need a more regimented account of the timers.

[CountZero]

2 hours ago, Blutaar said:

Please give us the option to disable the timers without making the engine indestructable! Options, whats wrong with options? Damn, after all these years. Frustrating!

With Unbrakable option ON in realisam settings, your airplane can be shoot down by guns dmg or over speed or over G, its engine can be destroyed by gun dmg, fuel loss, oil or watter overheat or loss, over reving rpms, to high ata/MP and so on... only engine timers expired damage have no effect on engine damage. Only problem is main reason for this option, airplane cant be destroy in colision with ground or anything els.

So if this option shows that engine timer can be off in game, why then they just dont separate it from no colision destruction, and make no timer option only. This option proves no timers can work with everything els on, it makes no sence to not make timer of/on option only. Untill then this is option i use in SP to turn off stupid timers.

 

2 hours ago, Crocogator said:

You don't really. If, from that post alone, I wanted to figure out what the recovery timer is for the A-20 (for example,) I would have no hope. I appreciate you trying, but we need a more regimented account of the timers.

spec say 5 min long so now recovery is 10min (was 15min before last update), so basicly for every 1 min use you have to wait on lower engine mode 2 min to get that 1 min back.

 

Didnt test it in new update, but also rule before was if emergancy/boosted recovers in 1:2 ratio (1 min used, recovers in 2 min while on lower mode) then combat also falows this rule for that airplane.

 

Edited April 1, 2023 by CountZero

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

Count got it, it's called combat time in the spec page, but it's really considered WEP in-game, so it has the flat 10 minute recharge. 1 minute on, 2 minutes off will only work if you're using it at the spec page boost/rpm for 5 min. If you're using your energy bar at a faster or slower rate, like in the F4 example I show, then the 1 minute on, 2 minutes off won't work. In the A20 in particular it's important to remember that you can burn your energy bar in around a minute if your using your stage 2 supercharger down low, and in that case the rule would be 1 minute on, 10 minutes off. There's no way to really give a blanket X:X ratio, you have to do math </3. There's no indication showing at what rate your burning your timer though. Using the F4 again, I know that 79% (combat) throttle lasts ~30 min, 83 (max combat) lasts ~24, 90 (WEP) lasts ~5, and 100 (WEP) lasts 1. I only use those percentages, then I do some very loose rounded math in my head to figure out how much of the energy bar I've used. Yes it's horrible, and I hate doing this, but I can't stand not knowing what's going on with the timer.

[Mtnbiker1998]

Sounds like its different but not all that much better.

 

A realism option to simply turn them off would do wonders instead of more arbitrary recharges

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

The timers work exactly as before, the only thing that changed is that the recharge times on a lot of them was lowered. You still are left with two choices. Memorize/write down arbitrary numbers and do math, or smash your computer in rage when your engine dies on you out of nowhere again.

[CountZero]

there is reason why we dont have random failuers like in real equipments , not even as option, even devs know how unpopular it is , and at same time the way they implemented this engine timers make it look like random failure for some airplanes and not for others.

Edited April 2, 2023 by CountZero

[gimpy117]

I'm confused why some timers (that as far as I understand are arbitrary) aren't consistent. For example: why can the 109 recharge 30 min. timer in 15 min, but 15 min. combat timer for the USA takes 15 min. what gives on that? seems like a clear edge to the 109/190 when it comes to working the timers.  

[ZachariasX]

2 hours ago, gimpy117 said:

I'm confused why some timers (that as far as I understand are arbitrary) aren't consistent. For example: why can the 109 recharge 30 min. timer in 15 min, but 15 min. combat timer for the USA takes 15 min. what gives on that? seems like a clear edge to the 109/190 when it comes to working the timers.  

If you have one hour of fuel, recharging for 30 mins after 30 mins timer usage can make a go-around during landing an interesting affair.

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

7 hours ago, gimpy117 said:

I'm confused why some timers (that as far as I understand are arbitrary) aren't consistent. For example: why can the 109 recharge 30 min. timer in 15 min, but 15 min. combat timer for the USA takes 15 min. what gives on that? seems like a clear edge to the 109/190 when it comes to working the timers.  

They weren't intended to be consistent as in having a balanced X:X recharge ratio, just consistent in that all timers of the same length will have the same recharge time. It is a small step forward though, the USA 15 min used to recharge in 30, and the 109s 30 used to recharge in 20, and the 190s in 30. Still, timers need to be extensively reworked/thrown into an abyss.

[Crocogator]

On 4/4/2023 at 8:13 PM, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

need to be extensively reworked/thrown into an abyss.

The consequence for exceeding the timer just needs to be less than engine death. Perhaps a rapid increase in engine heat, or a knocking sound warning, something other than technochat. And it can't be that you have already killed the engine by getting to the point where the engine sounds give you feedback.

 

As an aside, realistically, if I were in the war and this could happen, the one thing I would do is tell the factory to put a stop on the throttle, since all these young pilots keep killing their engines mid-fight. Since there's a risk of catastrophic failure just by pushing the throttle an extra few millimeters up, I'm going to save hundreds of lives by forbidding it from being exceeded.

 

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

1 hour ago, Crocogator said:

The consequence for exceeding the timer just needs to be less than engine death. Perhaps a rapid increase in engine heat, or a knocking sound warning, something other than technochat. And it can't be that you have already killed the engine by getting to the point where the engine sounds give you feedback.

 

As an aside, realistically, if I were in the war and this could happen, the one thing I would do is tell the factory to put a stop on the throttle, since all these young pilots keep killing their engines mid-fight. Since there's a risk of catastrophic failure just by pushing the throttle an extra few millimeters up, I'm going to save hundreds of lives by forbidding it from being exceeded.

 

Yeah, I'd settle for a better way of reading the engine life than counting Mississippi's, or noticing a wiggling RPM needle AFTER the damage is already done. (Some planes wiggle before its damaged, others your plane is a dead plane flying.) I'd love for the timer to be hidden in the gauges, like fuel pressure is WEP, and oil pressure is combat. Purists might not like that, but the engine modeling is what it is. 

 

The pilots would just have to get used to the timers in real life though, if they worked like this. Gimping your pilots to only fly in safe settings, would lead to them being slaughtered by pilots who know how to push their engine.

[the_emperor]

I would really like to know, what it is that is tried to simulate with the engine failure if you exceed your WEP time. 

The P-51s engine is allowed to accumulate a total of 5h hours of WEP time before tear down for inspection.
The only explanation therefore can be, that we are flying badly serviced engines at the end of their life cycles.

new engines can run their rating as long as the temp limits are kept and fuel and oil (and water/mw50) is supplied. 
the only negativ would be, that the engine will be worn out. But wear and tear is or random failure (its still 1940s tech) are not part of the game. 
i would really know the idea behind that mechanic, and what is tried to simulate here?

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

They're not trying to accurately sim anything. It's just a mechanic to force people not to use WEP the whole flight.

[CountZero]

The thing is you run out of fuel mutch faster if you do try to fly on full power all the time, 10-20min sorties ok, but 40-60min you would not be able to do.

[III/JG52_Otto_-I-]

On 4/5/2023 at 10:11 AM, the_emperor said:

I would really like to know, what it is that is tried to simulate with the engine failure if you exceed your WEP time. 

The P-51s engine is allowed to accumulate a total of 5h hours of WEP time before tear down for inspection.
The only explanation therefore can be, that we are flying badly serviced engines at the end of their life cycles.

new engines can run their rating as long as the temp limits are kept and fuel and oil (and water/mw50) is supplied. 
the only negativ would be, that the engine will be worn out. But wear and tear is or random failure (its still 1940s tech) are not part of the game. 
i would really know the idea behind that mechanic, and what is tried to simulate here?

I agree with you, the engine timers in game are not realistic in any way.  I think the game need a good engine thermal modelling what increasing the engine water, oil, and cylinder heads temperature when flying a full throttle excessive time, and like real life occurs, cause detonations, and misfiring prior to total failure, or pistons grip. In same way engine would be over cooled in dives, causing oil pressure oscillation, and misfiring if you set full throttle with engine too cool.

It is very know that WWII engines were prone to over temp, spark plugs and pistons failures using 150 high octane fuels with hight manifold pressures. 

By the way in real life engine overrev cause unpredictable damages such us, cylinder head over temp , misfiring, detonations, rods or timing gears failure, throwing parts outside the engine block….. followed with oil spray around the engine.

[the_emperor]

A good start imho would be to rework  the very very arcadic mechanic where reducing rpms at high/max MAP setting is rewarded with longer time on that MAP setting when this is not advised, to say it mildly, by the manuals, and that you would have follow a certain procedure when tapping into high/max MAP setting (a reason why single lever or rpm/map interconnections are preferable in combat):

 

[BlackBadger]

Hey Guys, so on a fw190 a3, if i'm flying it at 2600 rpm instead of 2700rpm how much time do i get? 2400 is combat, 2700 is full on wep. (WEP allowed for 3 minutes)

 

If on a f4 i get at least 3 minutes, someone mentioned 5 on 2600.... when 2500 is combat, 2700 being full on wep (WEP allowed for 1 minute).

 

Do i get 6...12?...8? I guess I'll have to test it.

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

Yeah just test it, but that's an engine you might not want to cheese, because every minute you spend at any level of WEP on the 1.42 ata Antons will also eat up ~5 mins of combat, so extending your WEP might cost your entire combat timer too.

[BlackBadger]

really? hmm. interesting. so I just got 10 minutes on the fw190-a3 2600rpm, which is astounding. But does that mean i got a 50 minute penalty on combat? doesn't make sense...

 

Also does the same apply to the 109s? that is, does WEP eat into combat?

Edited December 30, 2023 by BlackBadger

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

If you turn on the instrument panel option in the custom settings, it'll give you a message in technochat when your timer is used up. If you run WEP for 10 mins then drop down to combat, it should also tell you your combat timer is used up as well. Eating up 50 mins of combat without dying is a lot, maybe it eats it at a lower rate than 5 mins of comber per 1 min of WEP. I tested it a long time ago pretty loosely. But it is something you want to be conscious of.

 

For pretty much every plane WEP will also eat your combat timer at a different rate depending on the plane, except the MW-50 109s AFAIK. For them WEP supercharges the combat timer because reasons. Every minute you spend in WEP will recharge ~5 minutes of your combat timer, and you can recharge your combat timer to last over 30 mins if you supercharge it with the WEP recharge. 

 

Happy testing! Welcome to timer hell.

[the_emperor]

As long as we dont get an artifcial boost bar, that shows us how much WEP/Combat time is left/replenished we will never now for certain and our engines might die mid flight without any warning, you just ran out of time in your brand new air plane (oil pressure, and temps can be in the green and give no heads up).

In this regards the game is more arcade than simulation.

Edited January 3, 2024 by the_emperor