Junkers Ju-52 - workhorse of Stalingrad?

[Heywooood]

ok - yes

 

but I think we are at odds over whether or not they need to be included in this flight sim from the outset

 

My heart wont be broken unless I can NEVER target a resupply flight of TanteJu's in any incarnation of BoS  - or any similar aircraft of any participant in any future addon thereto

 

Thats what I think we're discussing anyway

[TheBlackPenguin]

In any case, this thread has showed us that there are drawbacks to the concept that every plane needs to have the same FM as a player controlled aircraft. A bomber or transport plane can have a simple version of the FM and yet retain realistic performance and behaviour. We are now pretty much stuck with planes which a lot of players want to fly, but miss aircraft like small unarmed transports or reconnaissance planes which can 'fill up' missions. By  losing this content the appeal to fly long campaigns and play the sim for several years drops off quick. This is has been my experience with ROF in the past, I hope the team reconsiders using simpler FM for simple AI aircraft (relative). 

 

Sounds decent enough at face value, my only concern being just how much work it is to program and place a simplified FM at this point of time vs a full FM, considering they maybe on a tight value, but I like the idea (not that it matters ).

 

[Freycinet]

Not sure why you laugh about making yourself look like a fool. Jason himself felt the need to dig out a better picture on a weekend night to prove that the shot they had chosen was crap and had to be replaced with a better one to actually show the details as it was blatantly obvious that my conclusion was drawn rightfully due to the lack of perspective and lighting in the original. So please, don't try to make me look like a fool, you won't succeed with such pathetic attempts.

 

Why this overly aggressive style of posting, accusing others of being fools, saying you cannot stand how dumb others are, etc, etc.

 

You, Zorin, are really polluting this forum with a terribly antagonistic tone of conversation. It totally ruins any point you want to come across with.

[Bearcat]

I think quite a few folks in this thread need to:

 

A-Step away from the keyboard for a spell.

B-Think before they hit send and read whatg they are typing.

C-Loose the attitude and ratchet down the personal rancor.

D-Remember that this is a process and the devs have a plan.

 

Zorin please check your PMs..

[Freycinet]

In any case, this thread has showed us that there are drawbacks to the__cbhmc concept that every plane needs to have the same FM as a player controlled aircraft. A bomber or transport plane can have a simple version of the FM and yet retain realistic performance and behaviour. We are now pretty much stuck with planes which a lot of players want to fly, but miss aircraft like small unarmed transports or reconnaissance planes which can 'fill up' missions. By  losing this content the appeal to fly long campaigns and play the sim for several years drops off quick. This is has been my experience with ROF in the past, I hope the team reconsiders using simpler FM for simple AI aircraft (relative). 

 

You and I and most other forum posters and flight sim enthusiasts live in a perfect world, where we have lots of dreams and they can be realised at no cost whatsoever. Realised in our heads, that is. Actual flight sim developers have to make ends meet and feed their families while trying to earn a living in a segment that has a very limited earnings potential, compared to much more lucrative genres.

 

1C/777 Studios is well on the path to releasing a hi-fi sim on time, under budget, which in itself is quite an accomplishment. There's going to be a limited plane set in the beginning. No way around that fact in the real world.

 

I'd love to have the Tante Ju in BoS and I agree that it is an essential plane in the actual battle. But with a limited team, limited time and limited budgets, there is no way that ALL the essential planes can be ready for the release of the first iteration of the "new" Il-2. In the original Il-2 there were no multi-engine planes, no FW-190, etc, etc on first release.

 

The best way to ensure that the Ju-52/3m will be in the sim is for the sim to be succesful. RoF has gotten quite a few "crap" planes along the way, even though they probably haven't led to a lot of sales. As it is, the He-111, which was used extensively in the transport role during the BoS, will be a place-holder for the Tante Ju. I think that is very acceptable.

 

Did the team actually say outright that there will never be AI-only planes? Or is it just their business decision for the first release?    

[Bearcat]

They said that .. or something like it .. but I read that as.. every plane in the sim that moves can/will one day have a cockpit you can buy.. I can't see this sim moving west without B-17s .. or even without flyable He-111s but then I am more of a glass half full kind of guy.. I think the statement can best be paraphrased as it takes the same amount of resources to do an AI plane as a flyable.. Considering the variety we have in RoF I see no reason why BoS will be less than... which is why I still go   when people say that they won't try RoF to get a glimpse of BoS.. when the devs have said from day 1 of this venture.. RoF is the best demo at the moment to give yo an idea of what is possible/coming in BoS.. but just from two videos alone.. the one with the lods and the other one with the cockpit I can see that this is gong to be that groundbreaking landmark thing that we all have been waiting for for over 5 years.. whether some of us realize it or not.

[Freycinet]

Well, when RoF was established and - I guess - somewhat comfortable, financially, they made a flyable R.E.8. you don't get a much more crap plane than that. Also, they have made lots of flyables that were really of secondary importance in WWI. Should give us all hope that we will get a nice full plane-set down the line, if the sim is succesful. 

[Heywooood]

I read their plan as : a player will be able to fly EVERY plane we make...whether they CHOSE to do so is up to them...but ALL planes are flyable and ALL are present in game to everyone - the ones you do not buy are there as AI

 

When you buy a plane in RoF - all you are buying is the cockpit and FM / ability to control it

 

this will be the same in BoS for which - once the customers start to come forward - the list will grow and will not be limited

Edited August 2, 2013 by Heywooood

[Neil]

Gents, You want a trasport aircraft, flying wich iwould be interesting?

 

Here You are.

he111.jpg

 

He111H-6 was much more suitable for transport missions than Ju52 because of:

-it is simply faster, and not such a "sitting duck" for soviet fighters as Ju52 (keep in mind that some Il-2 were engaged in "anti-transport-missions" ) 

-better defencive weapon

-more suited for winter conditions, better navigation in bad weather.

-could be a BOMBER aircraft if need (mid-december bomber operations in Kotelnikovo area, supporting Wintergewitter)

 

There were following He111 units:

KGrzbV5

KGrzbV20

KGrzbV23

KGrzbV25

 

III./KG4

 

Stab./KG27

I./KG27

II./KG27

III./KG27

 

II./KG 53

 

Stab./KG 55

I./KG 55

II./KG 55

III./KG 55

 

I./KG 100

 

So, it would be interesting, trust me

Hi guys, sorry to take this old post, but I want to know more about the Junkers 52,

Panzerbar stated (above) that the He111 is "more suited for winter conditions, better navigation in bad weather"

Do you have some document about that?

Because I am so curious about the use of the Junkers 52 in winter conditions, how it was performing

Thanks and sorry again!

[Feathered_IV]

Ju-52s were brought in from as far away as North Africa. They must have been doing something right. Turn around time for loading and unloading would have been a fraction of that of an He-111. They didn't require modification either. As far as navigation goes, that was a matter of crew experience and no reflection on the aircraft.

[ShamrockOneFive]

To combine threads a little... I wasn't really super interested in flying a transport aircraft although I firmly believe secondary (to combat aircraft) should be featured. The Ju52, FW189, Fi152, Li2, Po2, etc. But my thinking has changed somewhat... the thread about objective based multiplayer suggests it could be interesting if gameplay modes were setup so that a target objective could be achieved by landing supplies at a base. Or dropping parachutes or paratroopers or cargo into the target zone. Suddenly it's a lot more interesting to me.

 

The same could be said of an actual recon aircraft performing recon duties. I'm not sure how viable this all is from player interest levels (most want to dogfight) but it could be interesting in single and objective player gameplay.

[MarcoRossolini]

Totally agree that the JU-52 should be included.

 

Shamrock, the Po-2 (U-2 at this point) is definitely not just a transport aircraft.

 

A career flying U-2 night bombers to me would be very interesting IMO. It's a shame that I sincerely doubt it'll appear.

[Feathered_IV]

(most want to dogfight)

 

I find most want to dogfight, purely because those people are the only ones left. Modern flight sims do such a bad job of catering for other roles that people who prefer non-DF tasks have no incentive to take part.

[ShamrockOneFive]

Totally agree that the JU-52 should be included.

 

Shamrock, the Po-2 (U-2 at this point) is definitely not just a transport aircraft.

 

A career flying U-2 night bombers to me would be very interesting IMO. It's a shame that I sincerely doubt it'll appear.

Yes I know the Po-2/U-2 is not a transport but I'm referring to it in the "secondary" roles that it and the others I mentioned play. Night harassment, artillery spotter, squadron hack, etc. are all interesting pieces of aviation history too.

I find most want to dogfight, purely because those people are the only ones left. Modern flight sims do such a bad job of catering for other roles that people who prefer non-DF tasks have no incentive to take part.

It's true...

 

And TBH I'll probably be more likely found inside a Pe-2, Yak-1, or Bf109 than a Ju52 but if I can't populate my skies with aircraft other than direct combat aircraft I might find it a little boring too.

[Frequent_Flyer]

But 50 cals won teh war, how will we flip tigers without them?

 

I want a mustang whah!

I know you are being sarcastic, but really how old are you ? It looks like you found your way around the " parental controls" on the home PC.

[Neil]

It will be kind of challenging guys!

[MarcoRossolini]

Hmm... so when are we going to receive snowstorms in BoS eh...?

[=38=Tatarenko]

There are snowstorms now.

[Brano]

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/844-tante-ju/

 

Vote,read thru,comment.That is a poll.You can express your opinion by voting for/against.I do not understand why there always must be topics popping up about same issues,inevitably turning into ''mine is the truth''.No,the truth is that of majority expressed in poll.No one is interested in your personal insights into issue you have no idea about

Edited July 20, 2014 by Brano

[Feathered_IV]

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/844-tante-ju/

 

Vote,read thru,comment.That is a poll.You can express your opinion by voting for/against.I do not understand why there always must be topics popping up about same issues,inevitably turning into ''mine is the truth''.No,the truth is that of majority expressed in poll.No one is interested in your personal insights into issue you have no idea about

 

 

The poll was created after this thread.  Quite possibly as a response to it.

[III/JG53Frankyboy]

To combine threads a little... I wasn't really super interested in flying a transport aircraft although I firmly believe secondary (to combat aircraft) should be featured. The Ju52, FW189, Fi152, Li2, Po2, etc. But my thinking has changed somewhat... the thread about objective based multiplayer suggests it could be interesting if gameplay modes were setup so that a target objective could be achieved by landing supplies at a base. Or dropping parachutes or paratroopers or cargo into the target zone. Suddenly it's a lot more interesting to me.

 

The same could be said of an actual recon aircraft performing recon duties. I'm not sure how viable this all is from player interest levels (most want to dogfight) but it could be interesting in single and objective player gameplay.

without all the AI bombers, transporters and recons the COOP onlinewars in old IL2 would have been very booring IMHO. They made the scenario missions alive actually........

But i guess these times are over, i am glad i was part of it

[Neil]

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/844-tante-ju/

 

Vote,read thru,comment.That is a poll.You can express your opinion by voting for/against.I do not understand why there always must be topics popping up about same issues,inevitably turning into ''mine is the truth''.No,the truth is that of majority expressed in poll.No one is interested in your personal insights into issue you have no idea about

You are right, I choose to post in this topic because it was very popular, and Feathered IV wrote nice idea about including gamplay option with Tante Ju. I expresed my vote in the dedicated topic

[C-Bag]

thanks for getting things more into the spirit of what I think the original idea of BOS was Feathered IV. Seeing Zak and Jason on the review show drove home for me how much love of history and drive these guys have. And having these historical places and equipment bring all that home for me.

 

The whole mission to try and save the German 6th army and the pivotal role the Ju52 played in that are such amazing stories. The one thing Feathered left out was not only did they do that, just like he described, but they flew back to base and did it again, and again. wow.

 

I can see why having powerful air superiority fighters is very necessary to mass appeal, but it's not as harrowing as flying an overloaded Ju52 at ground level, often in bad weather with ground fire and enemy fighters hunting you, the Russians jamming your radio nav only to get to the airfield and have to circle till you could find a place to land because the field was clogged with downed aircraft and bomb craters. Not only did they take off the supplies, they drained some of the fuel out of the tanks to help fuel the vehicles! These pilots had some stones.

 

Same with IL2 pilots flying into the teeth of anti-aircraft fire. I never would have gotten to know what the IL2 pilots went through if not for this sim.

 

The Ju52 was in almost every major assault if IIRC. The accounts I read in Luftwaffe War Diaries by Bekker of dropping paratroops at 500ft, flying in formation through pea soup fog to invade Norway and of course the doomed 6th Army. I don't see how anybody could see it as boring. But historically you ran a really high risk of not making it, so I guess that's a hard sell. But it's too bad.

 

I'd still like to see the Ju52 eventually. And while I'm at it, I wish for the Yak7 instead of the La5. It least it was at Stalingrad.

[migmadmarine]

I would love to see (and fly) the Ju-52 for the challenge of it. 

[Duckman]

If you reduce project focus on monetary issues you could limit the planeset to a Spit, a Fw 190, a Bf 109, Jug, Stang and Lightning and be done with it ... Flying transport aircraft is one key task for AI so I'm not completely sold on "no AI-only aircraft" policy of 777. It seems to be centered too much on online thinking.

 

I think this is spot on. If you're doing WWI then "no AI only" makes more sense because the majority of aircraft types are fighters, and the recon planes and bombers are not overly complicated.

 

However in WWII there are a plethora of bomber, recon, transport and utility aircraft that are perhaps not interesting or economically viable (especially since they are a lot more complicated than WWI aircraft) as flyables but still important for campaigns and overall realism and immersion. The Ju 52 is a good example.

 

Perhaps it's time to look at the business model from ROF and see if there needs to be changes, like making AI packs. Two AI only for the price of one flyable? 1,5? I have no idea what the answer is, but the issue needs to be discussed.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Duckman

[=38=Tatarenko]

 

I'd still like to see the Ju52 eventually. And while I'm at it, I wish for the Yak7 instead of the La5. It least it was at Stalingrad.

 

The La5 was at Stalingrad too, plenty of them.

[Feathered_IV]

Cheers C-bag.

 

If the Ju does find its way in game, I hope the devs add some scoring that makes transport flying worthwhile. Flying into a supply area and netting a certain amount of points would be one thing. Sitting on the ground, waiting for the unloading time to end and wondering if you should end there or dare gamble your score for the jackpot winnings of a round-trip would be another entirely.

[migmadmarine]

Like that idea, not much of a MP player, but I would give that a try. And possibly air dropped supplies could be a good idea, trying to find a drop zone, and get the crates dropped in the zone properly. 

[III/JG53Frankyboy]

lets hope that the He111 will get cargocontaoners as a load option - and they were dropable

[C-Bag]

The La5 was at Stalingrad too, plenty of them.

 

yes you are right of course, I was trying to not stir up the Fw190 fans, as I can't find where it was at Stalingrad and that's what I was hinting at.

 

I also saw a quote somewhere that one of the Russian aces given the choice took the Yak7 over the La5. All these planes have such different character that it takes a while to get to really know them. Of the Russian fighters(which is what I'm concentrating on) I do the worst in the La5 for whatever reason. And from digging around on this forum, I'm not the only one. I guess you just have buck up and use what you're given and do the best you can.

 

I know the Dev's are trying to maintain some kind of balance and I'm sure it's hard with everybody wanting their pet project. I should have just stuck with adding my voice for the Ju52 and left it at that.

 

Just to add to the historical view, they had to quit dropping supplies because this got so scattered that the Russians ended up with the supplies more than the Germans. Add to this the Germans were getting too weak to go out and search for the drops along with the lines moving all the time it was dangerous. It was an incredibly desperate situation. That's why they had to land. Plus they had no way to drop the fuel safely.

[Brano]

Perhaps it's time to look at the business model from ROF and see if there needs to be changes, like making AI packs. Two AI only for the price of one flyable? 1,5? I have no idea what the answer is, but the issue needs to be discussed.

 

This is only viable for offline.You buy,you have it in your game.But not viable for Online.Some will have it,some not,just another diversification of servers to meet conditions.

[ST_ami7b5]

^^

Check your PM.

[Feathered_IV]

This is only viable for offline.You buy,you have it in your game.But not viable for Online.Some will have it,some not,just another diversification of servers to meet conditions.

Wrong. Like RoF, everybody gets the new aircraft. Those that pay for it get the cockpit.

[Shitigi]

Why u want this plane?

 

It easy dead kill for russian flies. I think u want to make russia get easy kill, yes. This only reason plane need be make added to game.

 

But russia make better the germany. We have easy time right now. Dont make things too easy to die i think ))))))))))))))

 

We have fun time now with 109. Can patient to make 190 kill too)))))))) dont make thing too easy us)))))

[LukeFF]

 

 

Why u want this plane?

 

Because it was one of the most important planes in the battle for Stalingrad? 

[ShamrockOneFive]

Why u want this plane? It easy dead kill for russian flies. I think u want to make russia get easy kill, yes. This only reason plane need be make added to game. But russia make better the germany. We have easy time right now. Dont make things too easy to die i think )))))))))))))) We have fun time now with 109. Can patient to make 190 kill too)))))))) dont make thing too easy us)))))

 

Vital for the strategic airlift effort trying to keep the army at Stalingrad supplied. They tried and largely failed but it was a major effort and large numbers of the Ju52 transports were lost here and were never to be replaced. Historically significant. I also think that the Russian Li-2 transport would be a useful aircraft as well but not nearly as poignant as the Ju52 is.

 

Not everything is about online dogfights. That's one narrow worldview. There's offline campaign mode and online objective based multiplayer that provide different experiences and can make use of greater variety of aircraft and situations.

[Neil]

Cheers C-bag.

 

If the Ju does find its way in game, I hope the devs add some scoring that makes transport flying worthwhile. 

 

Agree, we must get point for supply mission, like we get points for bombimg mission or dogfight missions

 

Why u want this plane? 

Historicaly important.

Battle of Satlingrad would NOT be the same without it.

 

 

Not everything is about online dogfights. That's one narrow worldview. 

That is so true.

Everything was about dogfight with Combat flight Simulator 1 et 2

Since IL2 , We got bombers with was a true revolution for me.

So the community was doing level bombing .

Now it is time to widen and to offer transport drop supply missions. in addition to dogfight and bombing.

The demand from the community is here and REAL (see the poll)

[Brano]

Wrong. Like RoF, everybody gets the new aircraft. Those that pay for it get the cockpit.

 

He was speaking about purchasing AI packs.That is not viable for online for reasons I posted above.

[kestrel79]

I'd fly a transport plane online. But give me an actual gameplay reason to do it.

 

Some PE-2s bomb a a german airfield. The airport is now closed you can't spawn from there until you fly a Ju-52 to the airfield itself to rebuild it, or fly it to another airfield where the stuff gets loaded onto a train that gets taken to the damaged airfield. Now the mission to reopen the airfield is to protect the train...just some random ideas

Edited July 22, 2014 by kestrel79

[Brano]

There is only one reason.Flying from Tacynskaja airfield with supplies (condomes,medals etc) to Gumrak or Pitomnik.There you pick up survivors and fly back.And mail (must have stamp on it,ofcourse).