Junkers Ju-52 - workhorse of Stalingrad?

[slm]

I was wondering if they could first include it as "static object"?  You could place them to air fields in Mission Builder, but it wouldn't be able to fly. So much less work would be required.

 

IMO missions including air fields would be quite strange without any transport planes.

[707shap_Srbin]

Pretty sure they recycled all applicable ground objects and even the He111 will have been simply altered to become a later H series plane instead of being an entirely scratch built one.

 

False.

 

Viks told me, that 3D model is a "one week business", and is only 10% of building entire aircraft to game engine.

[FlatSpinMan]

Zorin - would you calm down in your posts, please? Your comments towards Luke are unnecessarily hostile, whether or not that is intention.

[JtD]

The Fw 190 as fighter on the Eastern front was limited to JG 54 (except III. Gruppe which left for Germany in late 1942), JG 51 (minus II. Gruppe which was transferred to Tunisia, rest reverted to Bf 109 except for the Stabsstaffel in late 1943/1944) and a short stint by I./JG 26 near Leningrad. The majority of the Fw 190s on the Eastern Front were ground-attack aircraft.

Do you have a list of ground attack squadron as well, in particular for the BoS period?

[kestrel79]

Count me in for some supply missions in a transport plane! We need more gameplay options other than fighter and bomber. RoF has recon and arty spotting missions so I don't why why BoS won't have something similar in it down the road after release if all goes well.

[csThor]

The switch from Bf 109 E to Fw 190 came only in 1943. First in combat were SchG 1 and SchG 2. Then, in late 1943, the old Stukageschwader (and both SchGs) were renamed and amalgamated into the new Schlachtgeschwader (SG) and the bigger part was successively reequipped with Fw 190s.

[Uufflakke]

I was wondering if they could first include it as "static object"?  You could place them to air fields in Mission Builder, but it wouldn't be able to fly. So much less work would be required.

 

IMO missions including air fields would be quite strange without any transport planes.

 

+1 

 

I think adding the "Tante Ju" as a static object is a good compromise.

[Zorin]

False.

 

Viks told me, that 3D model is a "one week business", and is only 10% of building entire aircraft to game engine.

 

So they build all LODs, inner structures and cockpits for a multi station plane in one week? Interesting, indeed, so in violation with everything we have been told before but still  interesting. I will certainly hold that against them the next time they tell us they wont include a plane cause it is too much work for too little gain.

[SvAF/F16_Goblin]

I don't believe the statement "one week business" contains the hole plane model with cockpit and LOD/DM but just 3D modell as in outside shell.

The rest is probably far more complicated but I could be wrong  (I have been before), My brother is an industrial designer and 
produce 3D models and renders for the industry (ATLAS Copco) f.i. mining equipment and diggers, drills and stuff like that. Yes, they 
have designers making an aesthetically pleasing modell of diggers and drills  .

I know the amount of work that takes and it's by no means a "one week business"  

[Zorin]

I don't believe the statement "one week business" contains the hole plane model with cockpit and LOD/DM but just 3D modell as in outside shell.

The rest is probably far more complicated but I could be wrong  (I have been before), My brother is an industrial designer and 

produce 3D models and renders for the industry (ATLAS Copco) f.i. mining equipment and diggers, drills and stuff like that. Yes, they 

have designers making an aesthetically pleasing modell of diggers and drills  .

I know the amount of work that takes and it's by no means a "one week business"  

That is my understanding as well. Would love that Viks guy to come here and give us his first hand take on this "one week business".

[Foobar]

False.

 

Viks told me, that 3D model is a "one week business", and is only 10% of building entire aircraft to game engine.

 

Building a complete 3D model (including all LODs and textures) in just one week is something I don't believe.

[theOden]

Maybe there's some over-analyzing done to the answers down on letter level?

[Uufflakke]

Maybe there's some over-analyzing done to the answers down on letter level?

 

Besides over-analyzing this thread is was about the inclusion of the Ju-52 in BoS.

Nothing more nothing less.

 

It starts to get

 

     

[Zorin]

Besides over-analyzing this thread is was about the inclusion of the Ju-52 in BoS.

Nothing more nothing less.

 

It starts to get

 

     

 

That is what usually happens when the people in the know don't grace a thread with their presence.

 

I guess we all need to fight the urge to fill that void with our own assumptions.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Zorin

[SvAF/F16_Goblin]

Sorry for adding to the  part but to get back in line I'm one that would gladly pay to fly the old "Tante Ju" and drop 
paratroopers or supplies to my "cameraden" in the trenches 

[slm]

In IL2 I remember flying missions where the goal was to escort such slow supply flights to a far away base.

Protect those Ju-52 planes from interceptors.

A nice addition to the more common fighters vs bombers or dog fight scenarios.

So transport planes get my vote as well.

[Dooga]

Some people here seem to know so much about what should be possible and how to run a business (why pay for the 109? It was in x other recent titles after all!), why don't they start their own flight sim company?

 

As was mentioned repeatedly already: CloD has nothing to do with BoS, eight planes plus a game around them in just 18 months is fantastic (bearing in mind that 777 usually honour their deadlines, unless some other titles that some people can't seem to let go of), and the one valid project with which to draw comparisons (RoF) has released the majority of content and gameplay features in a continual stream four years after initial release.

 

 

So please relax, look forward to fall this year, and stop whining! If people want the Ju it will be made, along with many other airplanes.

And please forget CloD already - I'd really love a 777 driven western-Europe WW2 scenario, but if I was Jason and reading the continuous whining and naysaying whenever that game is mentioned, I wouldn't go anywhere near it! (People would expect to get everything for free, for starters)

 

P.S.: I liked CloD, especially with add-on missions - simply love the Spitfire in almost any guise. It still doesn't matter for BoS.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Dooga

[ShamrockOneFive]

Some interesting stuff in here... I do question the philosophy that every plane must be a flyable. Everything with direct combat relevance I'd love to see flyable. I think that's a viable argument for 777 Studios to make and I think I understand the rationale behind it. But there are types of aircraft that "fill out the scenery" that aren't necessarily required to be flyable. Army co-operation types, transports, etc. For the love of flight they are interesting but from a combat perspective they aren't... they are however viable strategic targets and a key stage of the Stalingrad battle cannot be replicated without at least some of the Luftwaffe transport aircraft present.

 

How they do it is up to them but I would like to see that stage of the battle represented.

[TheBlackPenguin]

Some interesting stuff in here... I do question the philosophy that every plane must be a flyable. Everything with direct combat relevance I'd love to see flyable. I think that's a viable argument for 777 Studios to make and I think I understand the rationale behind it. But there are types of aircraft that "fill out the scenery" that aren't necessarily required to be flyable. Army co-operation types, transports, etc. For the love of flight they are interesting but from a combat perspective they aren't... they are however viable strategic targets and a key stage of the Stalingrad battle cannot be replicated without at least some of the Luftwaffe transport aircraft present.

 

How they do it is up to them but I would like to see that stage of the battle represented.

 

The aircraft flown by the AI aren't just going to be shapes with a basic flight model, but will be identical to the ones we get to fly, in other words even if they make AI only planes it will require a lot of work besides the 3D shape to bring them up to high enough standard that I think we want to see, and then having got the FM down you might as well add in the cockpit and make it flyable by that point. I do understand what you're saying, however we need to be patient and if we get to vote, to do so wisely.

 

I hope that made sense

[Heywooood]

I agree its not perfect, and i would love the Ju52 to be there, and i agree its a limiting factor for offline play.

 

But at the start of the release i can understand it.

 

Lets hope BOS is a winner and these things can be added at a later date.

this is what I think also

maybe we can convince the devs to make the Ju flyable - but only for online or offline pilots who get killed stupidly...leaving their gear down, or belly tank on in a dogfight - or flying into a wingman in formation...leaving gear up on landing..etc

[71st_AH_Hooves]

IS there anyone out there that has some documentation on the Escort missions that fighters flew for JU-52's?  Id think that some things like that might help conceptualize inclusion of that Aircraft.  

 

  I think doing cargo air drops would be very dooable and fun, if they can be tied into a mission, IE recon in RoF.    Example  GET X amount of supplies to Y and get access to a number of Plane Z.  Similar to how many missions are written and play out in RoF.  Very effective, and adds a want to accomplish some missions.

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

Well 777 managed to set up recon flights and arty spotting in ROF, so i would imagine that setting up ju52 supply missions could be done.

 

Its just how popular would they be and would it be worth the time and effort for the team to do so?

[Feathered_IV]

Imagine playing the Ju-52 online on a supply run into the kessel. Staggering into the air, dangerously overloaded. Other Tante's are taking off too and head out after you as you do your best to stay low and read the landmarks on the way into Gumrak.

 

A player joins you and takes over the gunner position. Another joins in the co-pilots seat. Between them they call out the location of distant bandits, steering you out of harms way. Visibility from the pilots seat is limited and several times they save you from interception. Four other transports were following, but only two manage to stay with you.

 

As you get closer to Gumrak, things start getting busy. LaGGs and Yaks are in a killing frenzy. German flak is mixed with Soviet AAA. Russian fighters are in the landing pattern with the transports, and 109's are fighting desperately to keep them off.

 

Several Ju-52's are on the ground. Waiting for their progress-bar to wind down, showing when they are emptied of cargo and refilled with wounded to be evacuated. They are acting as forward observers, keeping a commentary of enemy contacts and calling in the next wave of transports in the moments when the air seems clear.

 

No time for niceties. When there is an opening you take it. Straight in and taxi as close to the unloading area as you can get. The closer you are, the less time on the ground (no points for you until you get the wounded aboard and return to your home base).

 

What feels like an eternity on the ground. Your gunner is firing. Sturmoviks are strafing. Three more Ju-52's have landed. Five more didn't make it, and you finally get the signal to roll again. A LaGG latches onto you as soon as you're airborne, but shears away as a 109 rolls onto its tail.

 

You were hit three times on the way out. The gunner was killed and that position and the dubious protection it afforded is lost to you. In relatively clear air you bank left and set a course for home. Taking an anxious look at the gauges you ask yourself, who the hell said flying transports is boring?

[SYN_Lt_Dan]

Now I want one after reading that 

[SYN_Ricky]

Now I want one after reading that

Me too!

[SvAF/F16_Goblin]

+1 

[79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer]

Count me in for some supply missions in a transport plane! We need more gameplay options other than fighter and bomber. RoF has recon and arty spotting missions so I don't why why BoS won't have something similar in it down the road after release if all goes well.

 

Oh, I can quite see a few very hair-raising missions in He 111s re-supplying the Wehrmacht. They did that in real life too, and the accounts I have read are hair-raising.

[csThor]

IS there anyone out there that has some documentation on the Escort missions that fighters flew for JU-52's?  Id think that some things like that might help conceptualize inclusion of that Aircraft.

 

"Stopped at Stalingrad "(page 256) lists that III./JG 3 was specifically placed at Morosovskaya-West by VIII Fliegerkorps to provide the bulk of escort duties for the supply flights to Stalingrad (and at least 1 Staffel of I./JG 3).

[TheBlackPenguin]

Me too!

 

And me!

[ImPeRaToR]

Building a complete 3D model (including all LODs and textures) in just one week is something I don't believe.

This must be a misunderstanding as I have contradictory information from their lead artist, my bet is the one week timeframe is for a static ground object which would be a lot simpler to make without the bump map and all the animation work as well as less LODs, not to mention the simplified damage model.

Edited July 31, 2013 by hq_ImPeRaToR

[=FB=VikS]

So they build all LODs, inner structures and cockpits for a multi station plane in one week? Interesting, indeed, so in violation with everything we have been told before but still  interesting. I will certainly hold that against them the next time they tell us they wont include a plane cause it is too much work for too little gain.

 

Not one but around two weeks (depending on model and plane type), and its ONLY about external 3D + mapping, otherwise all models are redone alot.

Its like if to take any MSFS 3D models to build into different engine, as there is different textures mapping approach, different model cutting (for damage model) different LOD`s detalisation, different animation, different polycount, different matherials assign and so on.

So - just forget about myth about "they just took that - and put it into BoS" - thats nothing.

As a fact - IL2 - was redone from scratch - cause of old 3D, and that is the only one of examples.

[Heywooood]

Not one but around two weeks (depending on model and plane type), and its ONLY about external 3D + mapping, otherwise all models are redone alot.

Its like if to take any MSFS 3D models to build into different engine, as there is different textures mapping approach, different model cutting (for damage model) different LOD`s detalisation, different animation, different polycount, different matherials assign and so on.

So - just forget about myth about "they just took that - and put it into BoS" - thats nothing.

As a fact - IL2 - was redone from scratch - cause of old 3D, and that is the only one of examples.

thank you for the insight VikS - nothing is ever easy really - not once you take into account all the angles

 

may I ask your position on the inclusion of such peripheral (if not KEY) aircraft as AI only going forward in the BoS theatre of war

Edited July 31, 2013 by Heywooood

[707shap_Srbin]

"Stopped at Stalingrad "(page 256) lists that III./JG 3 was specifically placed at Morosovskaya-West by VIII Fliegerkorps to provide the bulk of escort duties for the supply flights to Stalingrad (and at least 1 Staffel of I./JG 3).

 

Also 4./ZG1.

[=FB=VikS]

thank you for the insight VikS - nothing is ever easy really - not once you take into account all the angles

 

may I ask your position on the inclusion of such peripheral (if not KEY) aircraft as AI only going forward in the BoS theatre of war

 

 

There is another problem - all airplanes uses the same flightmodel and damage model system, so it will be just another aiplane - but w/o cockpit, so there is no sence between only AI airplane and flyable airplane - as it would take same amount of time for FM/DM.

[SYN_Lt_Dan]

That's ok I'm up for flying thee old girl if the A.I ain't up to it  

[Zorin]

There is another problem - all airplanes uses the same flightmodel and damage model system, so it will be just another aiplane - but w/o cockpit, so there is no sence between only AI airplane and flyable airplane - as it would take same amount of time for FM/DM.

 

So basically we will never see a sinlg e one of these planes (recon, liaison, transport) in game PLUS all planes that do not have enough documentation to build all stations and the cockpit for. Nice, that will certainly limit the number of planes in the game. So bascially we are talking pure dogfight airquaking, I am sure that will go down well with the simulation crowd...

[ATAG_Slipstream]

Zorin why the hostility? BoS is what it is, if you are not interested it might be better to step away now.

[BraveSirRobin]

It's pure dogfighting, except for all the bombing and strafing.  It does appear that there won't be a lot of flying of transports or liaison aircraft.

[LukeFF]

I will certainly hold that against them the next time they tell us they wont include a plane cause it is too much work for too little gain.

 

Why do you insist on having this sort of attitude?

[BMW801]

I realize that the FW 190 was not at Stalingrad, but I preordered the premium edition to fly it using the excellent BoS model because it is one of my favorite aircraft. Call it impatience, but I wanted it at least for single missions even if it will not be used in the campaign. I am hoping it will also act as a springboard for further expansions. The La-5 is a good counterpart. This will sell many premium preorders. It worked for me.