When will the B25 become flyable?

[Wardog5711]

Sigh....

How another request for a flyable B-25 ended up as another CloD argument is mind numbing. ?

Lets at least try to keep the discussions in the sections they belong in.

[R33GZ]

This is like an epic game of Chinese whispers on roids... I might start a topic on CLoD and see if it ends up as a B-25 thread ?

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

9 hours ago, Enceladus said:

RoF, IL-2 1946, Battlestations: Midway and CFS3 are more dead than CloD.

I can assure you IL-2 1946 has WAY more players than 23-45 a day...

[percydanvers]

I am once again asking for there to be another Great Battles module

 

[Irishratticus72]

[Robli]

7 hours ago, Lusekofte said:

Those flying clod is very passion about it.

 

That is clearly visible here on the forums also, whenever somebody even mentions CloD.

 

7 hours ago, Lusekofte said:

And events bring full servers with waiting list.

 

If I remember correctly, full server for CloD meant 128 players. Looking at Luke's link, last time when peak player amount exceeded 128 players playing CloD in total was January 2022. Before that it was May 2021. So these events must be very rare and all the players must be going to just one server during these rare events to get a full server and a waiting list.

 

8 hours ago, Enceladus said:

Don't mention it and if somebody brings it up in a post then don't respond, and don't even react to the post.

 

Is it some kind of sacred game whose name shall never be mentioned? It was quite a good game once Team Fusion fixed it and SoW campaigns were great fun. Maybe the game has become even better now, but the numbers still show that it is in practice a dead game, no matter how great or awesome it is. It does not mean that some people could not enjoy playing it even now, just like some people are still enjoying games from the early 90's, when games were sold on floppy disks, like Sid Meier's Colonization (which btw also has about 5 times bigger player base than CloD on Steam currently).

[Lusekofte]

1 hour ago, Robli said:

I remember correctly, full server for CloD meant 128 players

Latest events host 84. But I been on servers capable of 128. I know not on stats you are on about. But when I am at my second house I fly clod exclusively, just because it is a better simulation both in fm and dm complexity. And these times I been there I could not get in because of full server. But it is a long time since last Saturday event. 
I just say this because like it or not GB is suffering same fate as clod did when gb came on marked. A slow constant decline of interest. 
One can hope this new thing they say is coming will change that. 
To be clear, even if I do not use GB anymore I still hope and have interest in its growth. 
Because some people ditching it do not continue with other flightsims. They are lost. 
meaning it will be less customers for the genre both in software and hardware. 
To me it is important that interest for msfs, gb, Woff, DCS and clod keep growing. For that matter wt too. 
So I have no patience for this inter flight sim war tendency happening. 
Sworen DCS players tend to buy Gb and enjoy it for something new. GB is not for me but I do recommend it to everyone asking. Not for me is not equal to bad

[Robli]

Absolutely, I also have no need for inter sim war. Anyway, sometimes I tell my own observations about various sims and sometimes I also tell my opinions of what I like or dislike and that does not mean that everybody else should like or dislike the same things.

What comes to CloD, I quite liked it, once it was fixed by TF and SoW was running. It had some "clodisms", but it did not really bother me much. I also had BoS in it's early days, just with a winter map of Stalingrad, but most of my flying time was in CloD at that time. SoW ended and CloD was not getting anything new, while BoX was getting more and more content, so myself and people that I used to fly with moved over to BoX slowly and even when I occasionally launched CloD to remember the fun times over ATAG server, it was more and more empty every time I went back there, until I did not even bother launching the game any more.

BoX is in a different situation as even if it is clearly in the decline, there is no clear cut game to take it's place. DCS is better at aircraft simulation, but the WWII combat simulation is lacking (my opinion), CloD is still dead (my observation). Maybe BoX is expecting something major from MicroProse and preparing something bigger to counter that, but the big drop in customer communication is letting it's current customers slip away.

Luckily for myself, flying Hornet or Huey in DCS is filling the void for me quite nicely for now.

[IckyATLAS]

12 hours ago, Wardog5711 said:

Sigh....

How another request for a flyable B-25 ended up as another CloD argument is mind numbing. ?

Lets at least try to keep the discussions in the sections they belong in.

You are right, but there is a way to avoid that, and it is to communicate two way. Jason was good at it, to keep the community alive and hooked up. The rhythm of one short post per week, plus un update per month, was unheard of and that was what made me stay for so long. And Jason would from time to time exchange on the forum. No communication or very little, gives the impression (and maybe it is even true) that the community is there just for dishing the money. It sounds extreme ? not so. We had an what I would say enthusiastic Q&A session what seems already long ago about fantastic things coming in the future, with a major increase in the size of the development team. Excellent, but today due to the lack of true communication all this seems smoke and mirrors.

[343KKT_Kintaro]

2 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

 

And how about you stop promoting Clod in every thread you post in here?  Fair is fair after all.

 

 

This is why I said "what if we got out of the boxing ring?", but nobody paid attention to what I was saying...

 

Back on topic then: there won't be a flyable B-25 in Great Battles because:

 

1) The developers, apparently, rather than supporting Great Battles, are supporting the development of a new core engine.

 

2) The experience of a subcontracted C-47 has shown that a flyable B-25 would be excessively expensive, slow-developping and not proffitable enough. This item "2" is pure speculation of mine, thus I do admit I may be wrong.

 

3) The claim "we only make hard core simulators" is only a commercial claim. The real thing is that Great Battles is a WWI simulator in disguise, and the claim ("we only make hard core simulators") simply means (which is very respectable) that 1CGS refuses to produce "even more" limited simulators. This is why I said, about Loft's statement ("we only make hard core simulators"), that I think he's right.

 

Please you people be patient. 1CGS may be the future... or not. Let's trust them, let's be patient. But do not expect further development of Great Battles. It's over... and this is good news. You Cliffs of Dover haters were very happy back in 2013/2014 at release of Stalingrad. For the same reason you'll be happy, if everything goes well, at release of the next project of 1CGS. All depends on your patience. But apparently this, I mean patience, is not something you really have...

 

 

[BlitzPig_EL]

28 minutes ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

 

 

Please you people be patient. 1CGS may be the future... or not. Let's trust them, let's be patient. But do not expect further development of Great Battles. It's over... and this is good news. You Cliffs of Dover haters were very happy back in 2013/2014 at release of Stalingrad. For the same reason you'll be happy, if everything goes well, at release of the next project of 1CGS. All depends on your patience. But apparently this, I mean patience, is not something you really have...

 

 

 

On this we are in agreement.  I just don't see another developer out there that can,or will, deliver a new air combat sim experience that will have an enjoyable balance between rivet counting operational procedures and a fun to play experience.  I look forward to the next installment.

 

[[CPT]Crunch]

A B-25 would go great lengths to extend the lifespan of what we have, for any online war all the western alliance has for level bombing is the bastardized A-20 with a limited soviet bomb selection for the bay.  Meanwhile the axis enjoys multiple levels of level, dive, and purpose built attackers including jets.  Ironically flips the entire gaming strategic bombing war abilities bassackwards.  When it comes to tonnage delivery the Luftwaffe in game can deliver more punch and faster, proving again in the game world, history will never play out.

[ITAF_Rani]

They statetd next theatre will be always with prop planes...so I expect a next DLC for GB...no big towns are involved so I wonder what will be....and if Africa?

[BlitzPig_EL]

North Africa has already been ruled out.  So has the Pacific.  I'm merely guessing here, but I think we should move our calenders ahead a few years.  Remember, the devs said it would be mostly prop based.

Edited February 28, 2023 by BlitzPig_EL
Spelling error

[Canvas25]

3 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

an enjoyable balance between rivet counting operational procedures and a fun to play experience.

 

I think that's the best concise description of GB I've ever seen. Whatever the future holds, that same balance would make it a success.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Flown online for years, seen the numbers drop quite significantly in the last year or so. I seriously hope that the Devs give some serious indications of where GB is headed. Will they release more Flyable bombers? Will they sort out the awful AI? Will they take another look at the damage model. Will we get more realistic flight modelling? Will we get Heavies as AI? Will we get Malta or the Pacific or news of anything?  Will we? It's getting to the point where I'm beginning not to care and I never thought I'd reach that point but there it is .

Edited March 1, 2023 by 6./ZG26_Custard

[CountZero]

25 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

Flown online for years, seen the numbers drop quite significantly in the last year or so. I seriously hope that the Devs give some serious indications of where GB is headed. Will they release more Flyable bombers? Will they sort out the awful AI? Will they take another look at the damage model. Will we got more realistic flight modelling? Will we get Heavies as AI? Will we get Malta or the Pacific or news of anything?  Will we? It's getting to the point where I'm beginning not to care and I never thought I'd reach that point but there it .

I do not understand how ppl can think they will do any of that for this game when they will work on new game, if it was broken before when they had to work on only one game how in heck are they gona get all that when they work on two games... how its now its how its gona be , only thing to hope for is that new game is better then this one or its not gona be worth it then mess it will bring to this game.

[Gambit21]

5 hours ago, ITAF_Rani said:

They statetd next theatre will be always with prop planes...so I expect a next DLC for GB...no big towns are involved so I wonder what will be....and if Africa?

 

Nope!

 

Think of another place prop planes were utulized.

 

 

 

 

[Oboe]

15 hours ago, Robli said:

Absolutely, I also have no need for inter sim war. Anyway, sometimes I tell my own observations about various sims and sometimes I also tell my opinions of what I like or dislike and that does not mean that everybody else should like or dislike the same things.

What comes to CloD, I quite liked it, once it was fixed by TF and SoW was running. It had some "clodisms", but it did not really bother me much. I also had BoS in it's early days, just with a winter map of Stalingrad, but most of my flying time was in CloD at that time. SoW ended and CloD was not getting anything new, while BoX was getting more and more content, so myself and people that I used to fly with moved over to BoX slowly and even when I occasionally launched CloD to remember the fun times over ATAG server, it was more and more empty every time I went back there, until I did not even bother launching the game any more.

BoX is in a different situation as even if it is clearly in the decline, there is no clear cut game to take it's place. DCS is better at aircraft simulation, but the WWII combat simulation is lacking (my opinion), CloD is still dead (my observation). Maybe BoX is expecting something major from MicroProse and preparing something bigger to counter that, but the big drop in customer communication is letting it's current customers slip away.

Luckily for myself, flying Hornet or Huey in DCS is filling the void for me quite nicely for now.

 

The bolded phrase in this quote describes me pretty well.   I don't often linger reading posts here anymore, and there is a lot to be said for the anticipation and excitement a well-executed development update can create.  I don't know this sim as well as most of you, to be sure, but the impression I receive is one of little interest on the part of the developers to connect with the customers.   My interest in following IL-2 has nearly flat-lined.   

[MAJORgoonMADLOU]

48 minutes ago, Oboe said:

 

The bolded phrase in this quote describes me pretty well.   I don't often linger reading posts here anymore, and there is a lot to be said for the anticipation and excitement a well-executed development update can create.  I don't know this sim as well as most of you, to be sure, but the impression I receive is one of little interest on the part of the developers to connect with the customers.   My interest in following IL-2 has nearly flat-lined.   

Personally, I couldn't care less whether the developers want to connect with customers, whether their customers are losing interest or whatever.  All I know is that currently I love this GB and will probably continue to love it for a long time. All that other noise is meaningless.

[343KKT_Kintaro]

3 hours ago, MAJORgoonMADLOU said:

Personally, I couldn't care less whether the developers want to connect with customers, whether their customers are losing interest or whatever.  All I know is that currently I love this GB and will probably continue to love it for a long time. All that other noise is meaningless.

 

 

Definitely agree with the above. Those not having known other times than the internet era, apparently live as if they'd need to be permanently nursed by the developers' news and goodies. Unbelievable.

 

 

[Tomi_099]

1 hour ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

 

 

Definitely agree with the above. Those not having known other times than the internet era, apparently live as if they'd need to be permanently nursed by the developers' news and goodies. Unbelievable.

 

 

 

Well,.. yes I would like to know if the B-25 gets a chance.

And an old man like me is always happy when you help him across the street. ☺️

 

The B-25 is usually a must for such a sim. 

[343KKT_Kintaro]

43 minutes ago, Tomi_099 said:

 

Well,.. yes I would like to know if the B-25 gets a chance.

And an old man like me is always happy when you help him across the street. ☺️

 

The B-25 is usually a must for such a sim. 

 

 

I understand that, it's one of my favourite planes, you know... one of my favourite planes ever. But, for the reasons I already explained in this thread, I don't think we'll get it in this game.

 

 

[Livai]

On 2/27/2023 at 11:17 PM, LukeFF said:

I will keep laughing so long as people keep defending a game that, in whatever mode you want to describe it - online, offline, connected to the telegraph line - cannot break more than two dozen average daily players in the world's biggest PC game distribution platform. It's sad, and it comes across like a dude that insists the girl down the street is totally into him, even though she dropped him like a bad habit 12 months ago. ?

 

maintain the status quo, right???  -  IL-2 Great Battles is already a side project.............but still defending it

--> Compare DCS, CloD, Great Battles with WarThunder Series daily player play it - sad but true what players enjoy more is WarThunder = IL-2 1946 style

 

Back to topic - Why we don't have these B-25/26 flyable. The only thing what we always hear are excuses - if the money part not works then the amout of work it cost compared to the few sales in the end if everything else not work then everything is quiet on the developer front

[PatrickAWlson]

On 2/27/2023 at 2:22 PM, R33GZ said:

I did notice a while ago that on the BoBp career mode, the b26 squadrons that moved in are listed as flyable... I just had to purchase it lol. Not sure if this is still the case as I've been using PWCG

 

If they are then it is a configuration error.  The plane is not flyable, and, unfortunately, PWCG saying otherwise does not make it so  

[Gambit21]

2 hours ago, Livai said:

 

- if the money part not works then the amout of work it cost compared to the few sales in the end if everything else not work then everything is quiet on the developer front

 

 

...this is absolute gibberish ☝️

 

 

[R33GZ]

2 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

If they are then it is a configuration error.  The plane is not flyable, and, unfortunately, PWCG saying otherwise does not make it so  

No, no, your safe Patrick. It was on the GB career mode. And since I haven't used it for some time now Ii don't know if it is still there ?

[Rjel]

4 hours ago, Livai said:

 The only thing what we always hear are excuses - if the money part not works then the amout of work it cost compared to the few sales in the end if everything else not work then everything is quiet on the developer front

 

1 hour ago, Gambit21 said:

 

 

...this is absolute gibberish ☝️

 

 

I think that meant in answer to the OP was  maybe? Or maybe not? 

[Blitzen]

This is slightly OT.I'd love to have flyable B-25's and B-26's but from everything said here they are a long way off, so in the meantime would it be possible to have at least AI B-17's and B-24's? It would open up both the BoN and the BoB maps for a lot more missions with the other single seat fights we have now? I'm not sure but tinkering with what drives this sim might someday give us a larger plane count as well .

It seems to me these new 4 engine bombers can't be too tough to work in, after all CloD has had a perfectly acceptable AI Do-200 Kondor for years.Just yesterday while flying a campaign mission a formations of them flew overhead and  they are available for quick missions as well.

( A confession  I have played CloD  for years now and for me it has been a satisfying experience.If and when /if it incorporates VR ,I think it will be a worthwhile partner to BoX. I say that in full knowledge that the people over there are also concerned about their future as stated earlier in this post.)

Just sayin'

[Gambit21]

7 minutes ago, Blitzen said:

This is slightly OT.I'd love to have flyable B-25's and B-26's but from everything said here they are a long way off, so in the meantime would it be possible to have at least AI B-17's and B-24's? It would open up both the BoN and the BoB maps for a lot more missions with the other single seat fights we have now? I'm not sure but tinkering with what drives this sim might someday give us a larger plane count as well .

It seems to me these new 4 engine bombers can't be too tough to work in, after all CloD has had a perfectly acceptable AI Do-200 Kondor for years.Just yesterday while flying a campaign mission a formations of them flew overhead and  they are available for quick missions as well.

( A confession  I have played CloD  for years now and for me it has been a satisfying experience.If and when /if it incorporates VR ,I think it will be a worthwhile partner to BoX. I say that in full knowledge that the people over there are also concerned about their future as stated earlier in this post.)

Just sayin'

Game engine in the current state cannot handle more than a handful of bombers (especially considering you’ll also need escorts and attackers) without massive TD/time dilation.

Thus no point really.

 

Even if there was as we speak an AI B-17, the dream of escorting even an unrealistically tiny formation of 40 (never mind 400) bombers over the continent could not be realized.

 

 

 

[IckyATLAS]

12 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

Even if there was as we speak an AI B-17, the dream of escorting even an unrealistically tiny formation of 40 (never mind 400) bombers over the continent could not be realized.

Yes, true but even having the possibility maybe to have a flight of say max 10 without much time dilation, would allow for some interesting missions after all, and would be a huge plus for the game. But an AI bomber must have the AI behavior of pilots and gunners separate with a Priority parameter for each, and this should be applicable for all the bombers or planes that have gunners and pilots. Otherwise forget it I am not interested except if it is a flyable B17, in which case behaviors are managed correctly for the plane where the player is the pilot.

This said we are speculating here as it seems anyway that we are going nowhere and except a few technical updates and maybe the already committed plane/s it seems that these will be the last nails hammered in the BoX coffin.

[Tomi_099]

13 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

Game engine in the current state cannot handle more than a handful of bombers (especially considering you’ll also need escorts and attackers) without massive TD/time dilation.

Thus no point really.

 

Even if there was as we speak an AI B-17, the dream of escorting even an unrealistically tiny formation of 40 (never mind 400) bombers over the continent could not be realized.

 

 

 

 

Maybe you're right .. filling up the objects would eventually lead to the collapse of the engine ..
Perhaps they are not interested in inserting so many objects.

I also think a new boss and a new management .. a new direction ..

and in which direction do you go ..

all this delays the reactions ..

we have nothing else to do but hope that the new boss will do better ... hope and pray ! 

 

 

[343KKT_Kintaro]

3 hours ago, IckyATLAS said:

except a few technical updates and maybe the already committed plane/s it seems that these will be the last nails hammered in the BoX coffin.

 

 

The developers said several times that the plan of "Rise of Flight" converting into "Flying Circus" will go to through to the end. What is left? the full access release of FC2 (it's early access right now), FC3 and 8 collector WWI planes out of the overall 10 that will be necessary to complete the 40 flyables of "Rise of Flight" (three modules presenting 10 planes a module each + 10 collector planes). They also said that, in the meanwhile, further improvements and a few new WWII collector planes will be brought to the series. So no nails nor coffins... not yet.

 

 

[Blitzen]

Forgive me, but hasn’t there been talk of changing or modifying the engine to support larger missions or did I just dream this up ? Even with its limits I’d pay for AI heavy bombers. We have a plethora of German fighters that already deal with ( mostly) B-26’s and B-25’s over Normandy, so it seems to me even smaller formations of Heavies would fit in.We may never get the large formations & flak seen in CloD,but facing even a few B-17’s would be a formative challenge,?

[Livai]

19 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

Game engine in the current state cannot handle more than a handful of bombers (especially considering you’ll also need escorts and attackers) without massive TD/time dilation.

Thus no point really.

 

Even if there was as we speak an AI B-17, the dream of escorting even an unrealistically tiny formation of 40 (never mind 400) bombers over the continent could not be realized.

 

 

@Gambit21 when bundling the Bomber - Ai into squads - this minimise the amout of times where this or that Ai requesting information that it needs to make decision. This change allow to increase the Ai - size. BTW bundling Ai into squads allow each squad to share information between each squad what again minimise the amout of calulations and are updated when necessary, it works like a Plinko Machine where each Ai-Squad assign themselfs to tasks. This allow the Ai to appear more intelligence and coordinated...............

[Gambit21]

7 minutes ago, Livai said:

 

@Gambit21 when bundling the Bomber - Ai into squads - this minimise the amout of times where this or that Ai requesting information that it needs to make decision. This change allow to increase the Ai - size. BTW bundling Ai into squads allow each squad to share information between each squad what again minimise the amout of calulations and are updated when necessary, it works like a Plinko Machine where each Ai-Squad assign themselfs to tasks. This allow the Ai to appear more intelligence and coordinated...............

 

Everything I said applies...I have just a bit of experience with this stuff as it turns out.

 

 

 

 

[Livai]

4 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

Everything I said applies...I have just a bit of experience with this stuff as it turns out.

 

Because it is how it is and Jasons already said that this game engine was not designed for large-scale battles. However how much can be changed is hard to tell.

Fact is the amout of calculation that are done for each Ai need to decrease when we want more Ai planes in the air or larger bombers like the B-17.

 

Nothing is impossible. To save calculation the Ai need to be bundling into squads. Other Games did this and increased their Ai size.

[DD_Arthur]

On 2/27/2023 at 7:48 PM, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

In IL2CoD, players playing off line are not included in those stats.

 

 

On 2/27/2023 at 9:41 PM, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

I wasn't talking about single player. I was talking about OFF LINE game sessions. They are not counted.

The Steam stats for CLoD reflect ALL players using the game whether online multiplayer or offline single player. 
This means both IL2 1946 and RoF have a bigger user base.

 

Incredibly, European Airwar multiplayer - a mod made nearly twenty years after development of the original game finished - is more popular than CLoD multiplayer.

[343KKT_Kintaro]

I wasn't talking about single player. I was talking about OFF LINE game sessions. They are not counted.

 

 

[FuriousMeow]

I'm sure there's thousands of players that go through the effort of setting up Steam for offline mode that aren't being included in the stats. Although I'm pretty sure when Steam does reconnect it resyncs stats.