DVIIF operational numbers

[No.23_Starling]

Hey all, 

 

I'm trying to find good data on the BMW iiia engine and the number of DVIIFs active on the front in late 1918 vs DVII (au). PM Grosz in the Pfalz D.XII Windsock Datafile gives 223 BMW engines shipping from April - October 1918, with the majority going to Fokker (see extract photo). Some of these engines must have been used for testing and purposes other than front-line fitting as we have German test records from the fighter competitions confirming as much. The only number I have of operational DVIIs on the front is 828 by August 1918 (see Jack Herris, Germany's Fighter Competitions of 1918) - there must certainly have been more by the end of October. Anyone have figures?

 

We know that the first BMW Fokkers arrived by 22nd June as Ltn Richard Wenzl mentions in a surviving letter as having seen them being issued to Jasta 11, and also to the top aces of other Jastas (see Jon Guttman, Spad XIII vs Fokker DVII). By the end of June, Herris records 407 DVIIs being on front line strength, so we'd anticipate only a handful by early July to have the engine if roll-out had started ten days prior.

 

If Grosz is correct, we would expect a maximum of 1 in 4 DVIIs to have had the BMW by the time of the armistice, and a maximum of half the D.XIIs (Herris gives a figure of 168 XIIs on the front by the end of August). This fits with other sources I've read speaking about how pilots scrabbled to get the BMW, and often they were prioritised to only the best pilots.

 

This begs the question as to the likelihood of Allied pilots meeting the BMW Fokker vs the Merc version.

 

This also highlights how big the gap is currently to FC in 1918 without engine variants, as we seem to have one late-war exceptional plane among a number of under-powered cousins.

 

S!

 

 

Edit: I did read somewhere that often the DXII BMW engines were stripped out at the front and given to DVIIs, making the BMW DXII rarer and bumping the numbers for the DVIIF, though I have no record of how many were cannibalised in this way.

Edited February 12, 2023 by US103_Rummell

[BraveSirRobin]

Spad drivers complaining about how unfair RoF/FC is might be my favorite thing about this forum.

[=IRFC=Gascan]

It also kinda highlights how important it is to get the proper Mercedes DIIIau engine in the game for the DVII and Albatros.

[No.23_Starling]

3 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

Spad drivers complaining about how unfair RoF/FC is might be my favorite thing about this forum.

I don’t fly the SPAD any longer and there’s no complaint in the post - this post is about engines; there’s the same

case to be made for the Hispano 220hp late war.
 

If you’ve got data you’d like to share please do, otherwise take your warts and go back under your bridge before you turn to stone.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

3 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

Spad drivers complaining about how unfair RoF/FC is might be my favorite thing about this forum.

You are making false assumption this time , you don't know the guy, he is  not whining and do good vs any Central power plane. 

[J2_Trupobaw]

Quote

 The only number I have of operational DVIIs on the front is 828 by August 1918 (see Jack Herris, Germany's Fighter Competitions of 1918) - there must certainly have been more by the end of October. Anyone have figures?

84 Jastas, each 6-12 pilots strong,  is pretty much the upper limit. They were not the only fighter squadrons, but they were the only frontline squadrons - planes were on inventory of training and home defence units too. But we can assume that the D.VIIs were on the front while Albies and Rolands dominated behind the lines.

One thing to remember is that Germans stopped bothering with inventories by August. Nobody had idea what exactly they had by Black September or October, then or later. My best bet would be to go through post-armistice protocols of planes surrenderred to Entente by frontline units (they flew their planes to surrender them personally, while planes behind the front were delivered later).

IIRC there were 200is Albies still in service (probably not on frontlines), 70 Rolands, 175 D.XII were surrendered to Entente; about 60 SS D.IV and 85 were ever operational (not at same time). So among 1300ish opearional airframes about 830 were D.VIIs , while Jastas required  840-1000 airframes to keep them in full strength - this pretty much corresponds to number of operational D.VIIs and surrendered D.XII alone, especially since they were rarely at full strength. 

Now, the BMW engine. Like all good things (Dreideckers, ace pilots) they were likely drained into Jagdgeschwederen. I'm not sure about JG3, but JG2 was equipped with BMW D.VIIs according to Norman Franks. We should check with not-JG but elite squadrons (Jasta 5, Jasta 7) to see if BMW was present outside JGs at all. I would not be surprised if JG1/2/3 were almost fully equipped with BMW while regular Jastas had to do with Mercedes. Again like with Dreideckers, you didn't see one-two BMW machines leading a formation of Mercedes planes - if you run into BMW Fokkers, they came in 40-strong formations.

You can start by checking RoF career mode to see which squadrons use BMW there and then find author ( @LukeFF ? ) and ask him where the info came from.

Jasta B was predominantly equipped with them, anyway.



 

Edited February 13, 2023 by J2_Trupobaw

[No.23_Starling]

This is great, thank you! Which Norman Franks book are you referring to? I think I need to buy the two DVII aces ones from Osprey too.

 

Do you have anything on engines? The source above is the only one I have which points at 223 BMWs going to Fokker between April and October, which given your 800 odd number of airframes would have around 1 in 4 with the engine before the war ended. Also, Ltn Wetzl notes some of the aces got one in June - would have it been possible for one or two pilots per Jasta to have one initially? I guess it wouldn’t have made sense to mix and match given the difference in performance.

 

Thanks Trupo, a fountain of knowledge as always.

[J2_Trupobaw]

I'm mostly compiling common knowledge sitting at work away from books; make sure to cross-verify it . The 200ish Albatros airframes I remember from Osprey Aircraft of the Aces series  Albatros, volume 2. Other numbers are from Wikipedia .

Franks describes Jasta 2 as flying BMW equipped D.VIIs in August-October 1918. Most of these fights involved entire, and their performance was pretty equal JG2. 

[No.23_Starling]

1 hour ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

I'm mostly compiling common knowledge sitting at work away from books; make sure to cross-verify it . The 200ish Albatros airframes I remember from Osprey Aircraft of the Aces series  Albatros, volume 2. Other numbers are from Wikipedia .

Franks describes Jasta 2 as flying BMW equipped D.VIIs in August-October 1918. Most of these fights involved entire, and their performance was pretty equal JG2. 

Thank you! I’ll order a copy of this too. My Jasta library needs enhancing. I feel like the community would benefit from a reading list of books and good online articles for us all to share - you’d be a good candidate on the Central history subject. I feel 3PG could do a good job on the USAS side

[No.23_Starling]

Update: Trupo, I’m just reading the Franks book on the DVII aces. Goering complains in July about having to field a mixture of Merc and BMW engines causing sections to fall behind - looks like initially there was a mixture of types until more engines became available. There is also letters from Lothar vR advising strict care for the precious BMWs around the same time, asking for 2x per plane. Other interesting quotes around the AU engine giving the boost above 2km but that the French seem to also be adopting higher compression engines to counter.