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Bf109 3D cockpit model not accured


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Roland_HUNter
Posted

Greetings!


I am not a professional modeler, nor do I have exact data on the dimensions of the cabin, so I would like to ask the experts for help on this problem or its current correctness.


If the problem can be verified, the newly arrived G-6/AS could be affected, as well as all Erla Haube cabin machines.

 

I tried the DCS K-4 the other day and was struck by the difference in the position of the armour and canopy behind the pilot compared to the BOS.

(In both cases I looked back from the maximum top right or top left corner.)

                                                                                                         BOS - DCS

 

BOSK4left.thumb.jpg.0282c26319ed6b24b87eb6866e95b618.jpgDCSK4left.thumb.png.bffe0311106fa5acf081c10c2ed180ba.png

 

BOSK4right.thumb.jpg.a33c1889a9c9971573a2f4fd6fdfc09e.jpgDCSK4right.thumb.png.a3d94d2f3e69f6f65ea0941e49bb1693.png

 

                                                                                             Finnish G-6 - BOS G-14

 

Fin-G-6.jpg.b49d7331918ba0248cc410951ab15ee5.jpg832379444_ViewerG-14.thumb.JPG.f2741b869e6cafa883fb3b4b694111ab.JPG

 

                                                                     Bf 109 G-14 WNr. 462707 - BOS G-14

https://www.jagdgeschwader4.de/index.php/flugwerft-hauptraum/jaeger/messerschmitt-bf-109/g-14-462707

 

1548307122_Bf109G-14WNr.462707.thumb.JPG.2e6c47e787960c2ed7375bcdf1b54e6f.JPG1729885531_ViewerG-14-2.thumb.JPG.f63a80a25bd39b41104ca0c00ca71501.JPG

 

You can see the difference.

 

Please provide evidence of these discrepancies,
Or their current correctness, with the help of experts.

 

With thanks, Roland_HUNter.


Additional pictures::

Ilmari Juutilainen 1944:
288188779_IlmariJuutilainen.png.814fb9a5c2c3a89c0cf98688d63294ad.png

 

                                                                                              Bf 109 G-6 - BOS G-14

1382843486_erlahaube_retrofit_G6_.jpg.d39216eaaed9a9bc3f0081e1f5b3ed5d.jpg171741895_ViewerG-14-3.thumb.JPG.96c8dc13908d6473c79d6de182bdd11f.JPG

 

Airfixer_Erla_03.jpg.733334d5aa60c857f4209f178d9a08aa.jpg

 

                                                                                    E.hartmann G-10 - BOS K-4

 

Hartmanntulip-G-10.jpg.171d41b50eff609abc958137b3220759.jpg1234730442_ViewerK-4.thumb.JPG.0ee6005c5657c2332a916834d096fcbf.JPG

 

                                                                     Bf-109 G-10 W.Nr.491501 - BOS K-4

Bf_109_G-10_W_Nr._491_501.png.34e7554fe0d591d76e987a56cc0a7b42.png401820031_ViewerK-4-2.thumb.JPG.0d742a8987042b4ab8a8ac91a594b572.JPG

 

 

 

Alternatively, it is also worth reviewing the G-2-4-6 models for the glass armour.

 

                                                                     Bf-109 G-6/R3 National Space Museum, USA - BOS G-6

1053708337_G-6-R3NationalSpaceMuseum.jpg.8b16d866ea3f05073f36ff1403ac87d4.jpg719838458_ViewerG-6.thumb.JPG.22a62d175107b90b4a2efdf6e44b2ab2.JPG

 

Austria - Aviaticum Aviation Museum Bf-109 G-6(14) WNr. 784998 - BOS G-6

 

426352941_AustriaG-6.thumb.JPG.0efa98bc998e5cf36b5ffea12ad732c5.JPG1965726311_ViewerG-6-2.thumb.JPG.ed2c4f6a6a845d4cab3f025671d5e3f0.JPG

(part rebuild, part replica of Herbert Maxis' Bf 109 G-14 'white 13' of IV./ JG 53 (WNr. 784998) photographed at the Aviaticum museum, Wiener Neustadt Ost near Vienna, Austria where it has been on display since 2006 as a "G-6".)

image.png1706405025_ViewerG-6-3.thumb.JPG.7248528b6cb3a721cd4b0d67e3b8d232.JPG

I tried to take the picture from the same angle, but it's not easy.

 

Bf -109 G-6 W.Nr. 411 902 MT 417 HLeLv 34, Maj. Eino Luukkanen, Immola, 15 June 1944. - BOS G-6

2040469037_Bf109G-6W_Nr.411902MT417HLeLv34Maj.EinoLuukkanenImmola15June1944..jpg.cf318248fda07dd8907f838086f8b806.jpg1645531246_ViewerG-6-4.thumb.JPG.395a947d50d299ec093a1ba5db7b2b54.JPG

Here I discovered another difference:
The top longitudinal lines of the G-6 are wider than in reality (marked in yellow)(But appearances can be deceiving.)
And the armour glass is different here too.

 

                                                         Bf -109 G-6 Oblt. Heimo Emmerstorfer - BOS G-6

6525440_Oblt.HeimoEmmerstorfer.jpg.69ae6a28ac11bbf339353a1aefad09ce.jpg1365205065_ViewerG-6-5.thumb.JPG.6b7f27e02de27db28d133b2a078d40f2.JPG

 

The head armour of the G-2 also looks different in several places on the surviving aircraft.

 

                                                                     Bf-109 G-2 RAF Museum London - BOS G-2

 

235391892_RafMuseumG-2.thumb.JPG.c1002322df3880ba3caf55c72f28c280.JPG1388584826_ViewerG-2.thumb.JPG.76dc1723e56d768dd5dcbe8e02e76be3.JPG

 

                                                                     Bf-109 G-2 Canada Air and Space Museum - BOS G-2

206745122_CanadaAirandSpaceMuseumG-2.jpg.c302af5b2f128510d7bb0998ce151bf4.jpg1388584826_ViewerG-2.thumb.JPG.76dc1723e56d768dd5dcbe8e02e76be3.JPG

 

Messerschmitt Bf 109F-4/Z, (Wk. Nr. 10132), coded "CD+LZ", 2./JG 5, Stab II./JG 54, is on display in the Canada Air and Space Museum, Ottawa, Ontario.  This aircraft incorporates parts of (Wk. Nr. 26129). --->G-6.

  • Upvote 6
  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

 

Could just be a visual oddity created by user game settings.  If the game measurements and geometry match real life then the model is corect. Play around with the in-game head position and it looks like being in a a 109 (I managed to sit in Red 7 and in-game feels pretty similar to how I remember that.

 

von Tom

  • Confused 1
Roland_HUNter
Posted
18 hours ago, von_Tom said:

 

Could just be a visual oddity created by user game settings.  If the game measurements and geometry match real life then the model is corect. Play around with the in-game head position and it looks like being in a a 109 (I managed to sit in Red 7 and in-game feels pretty similar to how I remember that.

 

von Tom

You really can't see the difference between the IRL and IL-2 headglass?
it's not point of view problem, it's modell problem.


Funfact:
The War Thunder modelled it right.
Even the head armor for G-2.

Roland_HUNter
Posted

BOSK4left.thumb.jpg.0282c26319ed6b24b87eb6866e95b618.jpg20230106103129_1.thumb.jpg.c06e3a25d2e8550670245ea1536264d7.jpg

1234730442_ViewerK-4.thumb.JPG.0ee6005c5657c2332a916834d096fcbf.JPG75485565_WarThunderScreenshot2023_01_06-10_41_06_20.thumb.png.73709f1c6540165b866bf4211d9d245d.png

 

As in IRL the armored glass does not end at the cabin bracing, but before.

 

Posted
4 hours ago, Roland_HUNter said:

You really can't see the difference between the IRL and IL-2 headglass?
it's not point of view problem, it's modell problem.


Funfact:
The War Thunder modelled it right.
Even the head armor for G-2.

 

I can see various images taken from different games that are taken from angles or head positions that don't match, or with what amount to differences in perspective that could skew what you see.  See the first 2 images for an example.

 

I appreciate that you don't have the measurements etc but my suspicion is that the game model design (aircraft framework anyway) is taken from original technical drawings and or original documents and photographs and most likely correct.   Variations in cockpit armour position may have ben accounted for.

 

Ergo, it could be the in-game cockpit position.

 

The best place for this thread is here - 

 

 

von Tom

Roland_HUNter
Posted
1 hour ago, von_Tom said:

I appreciate that you don't have the measurements etc but my suspicion is that the game model design (aircraft framework anyway) is taken from original technical drawings and or original documents and photographs and most likely correct. 

Unfortunately, I doubt it, because this is not the first time:
https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/41814-bf109-3d-cockpit-model-not-accured/

 

And when this was fixed, it was not listed in the patch log:

 

  • Like 1
354thFG_Drewm3i-VR
Posted

Of all the things to worry about in IL2, this should be very low on the list. What about the p-51s short, stubby wings for example (also unimportant)? What about the massive, blinding sun that reminds me of IL-2 1946?

 

The short is that I think some of these perceiveable oddities are not caused by errors in the 3d models (would have to extract the files and load them into something like 3ds or blender), but rather the rendering engine itself and how it renders the 3d models in game. This interplay causes a fair bit of distortion here and there and what is most important is that the values of the armored glass in question are covering the pilots head with the same specifications as the real thing and therefore working as they did in real life.

  • Like 1
  • Confused 1
  • Upvote 1
  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

all of these should be fixed. the problem is that box's staff are divided between both dev and patching.

  • Sad 1
  • 4 months later...
Roland_HUNter
Posted

More evidence, this is wrongly modelled:

Ingame:

il2k4.thumb.JPG.41c06f84c81099c6dfbcd8cfa1aaf012.JPG

DCS:
dcsk4.thumb.png.33233ee73d44f09680a4aee743b29f68.png

Modell:
Modellcanopy.jpg.847f5a0d3d7c70c4685854c205169bff.jpg

G-10 US museum:

g10us.thumb.JPG.f9f0569ca5078cf591b9b7f117051167.JPG

G-14 what is in still flying condition:
g14paddypatrone.thumb.JPG.52df7e9b6c9bdf5599be95e1752d9240.JPG

 

You can see that there is a big difference between the game and the real cabin!

  • Like 1
Roland_HUNter
Posted

Armored Glass in regular canopy:
g6late.thumb.JPG.0f17bcea4cc00ee335ed9b332b6ba6ce.JPG

 

IRL:
g6.jpg.5ec3e37bd8f2539decfc4b819d9ed127.jpg

  • 6 months later...
  • 1 month later...
Roland_HUNter
Posted

Any one has dimension datas for the Erla Haube, like this?

3.thumb.jpg.11df3b89e0b6c40b697a32cd0e826bfd.jpg

4.jpg.d09dd026c0adae2e9cd62e60b8e443f2.jpg

Roland_HUNter
Posted

Dear, @LukeFF

Will this topic get reviewed any time in the future?

  • 1CGS
Posted

I'll ask

  • Like 1
  • 2 weeks later...
Roland_HUNter
Posted

Removable headrest modi for Erla Cabins?
 

headrest1.PNG.ebe51d1a3ab141878ef8e2389b732c36.PNG

 

headrest2.thumb.PNG.2743a6bffb6a6e3bcbe4102adf81db75.PNG

headrest3.thumb.PNG.04bed80276d61a1be36245613a58ba00.PNG

 

 

 

Armoured headrest:

headrest4.PNG.a0ac03bd3e6d182a680917b6baf73370.PNG

headrest6.PNG.e7b01c721a5ec8ff49fc1e37eb641018.PNG

  • Like 1
  • 1 month later...
  • 1CGS
Posted

No, there isn't, sorry. 

  • Sad 2
  • 2 months later...
Roland_HUNter
Posted

Still nothing? 😢 

FTC_ChilliBalls
Posted
On 1/6/2023 at 4:09 PM, Roland_HUNter said:

Unfortunately, I doubt it, because this is not the first time:
https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/41814-bf109-3d-cockpit-model-not-accured/

 

And when this was fixed, it was not listed in the patch log:

 

Tbh, these issues are only somewhat comparable.
 

Changing an already existing mesh isn‘t as complex as adding new mesh to an already existing one and creating textures for that addition.

 

I am with you in that I would love to have this changed to be more historically accurate, but given the limited development capacity of any developer, and other, more pressing needs, I don‘t think this would be high on the list of priorities.

  • Sad 1
  • 5 months later...
Roland_HUNter
Posted

We are waiting for this almost 2 years...please...

  • 1CGS
Posted

No plans, guys, sorry. 

  • Sad 1
  • 2 months later...
Roland_HUNter
Posted

Will it be fixed?

 

  • 3 months later...
Roland_HUNter
Posted

Anything?

  • 1 month later...
Roland_HUNter
Posted

With so many 3D modeling improvements planned for IL-2 this year, is there any timeline or update regarding the proper modeling of the rear armored glass?

  • LukeFF locked this topic
  • 1CGS
LukeFF
Posted

No. If there is an update we will provide one.

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