Bf-109G on gun camera

[Terror_6]

Hello!

I would like to ask anyone who is knowledgable on 109s of their opinion on these pictures. I've been trying to figure out what the exact type is and the possible squadron it belonged to, but Im confused. Seems to have White 23 on it's side, white rudder, tall radio mast, long(?) rear landing wheel, and the tail doesn't seem to be early G-6 either because the rudder doesn't have that half Y shape to it. Also the white stripes on it's wingtips puzzle me too, and seems to have 1944 camouflage pattern. Similar to a G-10 with diana camo?

Anyways, here they are. I found them in the 1949 movie 'Twelve O'Clock High' on Youtube. Timestamp is 1:50:43.

 

Also, one more very interesting thing about that movie. A few seconds after this footage a 190 can be seen being shot down. If the source is right, it is none other than Oblt. Egon Mayer's final moments.
Source : https://acesofww2.com/USA/aces/gresham/

 

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by Terror_6

[Terror_6]

After more searching I could find some potentially relevant stuff.

 

 

 

Notice the very similar camouflage patterns, and the white/light grey stripes near the wingtip. Also, reviewing the footage more it seems most of the tail was painted white, just like on the illustration.

 

Could it be that this White 23 also belonged to III/JG1 in late 1943? Maybe even the same batch of G-6s as Eberle's. 

Edited December 7, 2022 by Terror_6
Pic with Swastika removed

[dbuile]

At the moment, I'd just say it's a G6.  Also, be very conservative about conclusions from the gun camera film.  For example, the "white" lines near the wingtips appear/disappear depending on angle; the same effect is visible on other parts of the structure which we don't feel are white also.  So, it could be light reflection that the film shows very brightly.  Same with the tail.  When it is light in color, which might lead you to hypothesize it being white, the same/similar "value" is visible on other areas (end of the right wing, for example in your first still) which we don't believe are white.  

[sevenless]

Could be a late 1943 or 1944 staff plane with 20-25 numbering like this oneof III./JG 1:

 

or numbering like III./JG 26 staff like Mietusch:

 

http://luftwaffeinprofile.se/Bf 109 vs P-51 3.html

http://luftwaffeinprofile.se/Bf 109 vs P-51 2.html
 

Numbers appear of light colour that excludes III./JG 26 for me. Obvious is the white tail which afaik was used by Groupcommanders like Eberle or Hackl (III./JG 11)

 

Asisbiz Messerschmitt Bf 109G6R6 Stab III.JG11 Anton Hackl Gruppenkommandeur Oldenburg Germany Jan 1944 0A

 

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by sevenless

[Terror_6]

1 hour ago, dbuile said:

At the moment, I'd just say it's a G6.  Also, be very conservative about conclusions from the gun camera film.  For example, the "white" lines near the wingtips appear/disappear depending on angle; the same effect is visible on other parts of the structure which we don't feel are white also.  So, it could be light reflection that the film shows very brightly.  Same with the tail.  When it is light in color, which might lead you to hypothesize it being white, the same/similar "value" is visible on other areas (end of the right wing, for example in your first still) which we don't believe are white.  

I agree that it's hard to tell, but the one on the footage does look pretty similar to the patterns/markings on Eberle's G-6 from late 1943. The camouflage, white/light grey stripes on the wing (which seem to be consistently visible throughout the footage, despite the low quality), and the large white numbers. Also the tail, to me atleast, seems strikingly bright compared to the rest of the plane. Ecspecially since the left side wasn't illuminated by the Sun and it's still visible. You can even see the swastika.

I wish the cockpit was more visible, it's impossible to tell if it's standard or Erla hood.

 

 But again you are right, it's very hard to say anything for sure. 


 

1 hour ago, sevenless said:

Could be a 1944 staff plane of III./JG 1 like this one

Yeah I guess it could be 1944 too. Patterns look more like late 1944 than 1943. Although the description of Eberle's plane does mention it was a non standard camo. Not sure how reliable these things are, so yeah. Hard to tell.

And if it's not a JG1 plane, I wonder what it could be.

 

 

Either way, I appreciate the comments

Edited December 6, 2022 by Terror_6

[Wardog5711]

Once again, I will remind everyone. NO SWASTIKAS. None.  Do not post pictures with them visible.

The picture has been removed.

@Terror_6 If you want to repost it with them covered, feel free.

[Terror_6]

Sorry, I didn't mean to disrespect anyone.

[Terror_6]

I think I found another footage of the same plane. It's right before the first footage I referred to in previous posts. Tail definietly seems bright, which I don't think could be any other colour but white. Also the white lines one the wingtips can be seen too, though faintly.

 

[Terror_6]

Been a while I guess. I've decided to revisit this particular plane and found the footage in a 3 hour long video.
 

It seems I was on the right track. January 30th 1944, being engaged by a P-47 (I assume) from the 369FS 359FG, flown by 'LT. Booth' who I assume refers to Lt. Robert J. Booth. The reel this footage belongs to starts with the term 'RAMROD'? Not sure what that refers to.
@Bremspropeller Sorry for the ping, but is there any way to find out who the 109 belonged to, assuming this footage wasn't cut together? The white tail of the 109 indicates that it was flown by a pilot of high rank, so I was wondering if it was possible to find anything. Thank you in advance.
 

[357th_KW]

On January 30th, 1944 the 359th FG's 369th FS engaged eight Ju88's that were trying to climb up to the bomber stream, as well as six 109s that dove through the bombers.  They claimed 1 victory, 1 probable and 2 damaged against the 88's along with 2 victories and 1 damaged against the 109s.  This is taken from "A Manifest Spirit: The 359th Fighter Group 1943-1945" by Fogg, Baldridge and Fogg. 

 

Here is Booth's after action report:

 

 

Looking at Donald Caldwell's "Day Fighters in Defense of the Reich" it seems very likely that those Ju88's were from Stab/NJG2 of III/NJG2, which were flying with Jagddivision 3 that day.  That would seem to indicate that the 109s were probably from II/JG11, III/JG26 or III/JG301 - as those were the only 109 gruppen to suffer casualties in the same time and area.