Get rid of AI drone mode?

[SFC_Tako]

Hello, all!

 

I've done some serious testing lately and there's not much to complain about with this sim.

It's made from a very old engine, yes...yet the sights and sounds of it are very good. Especially considering it's old age.

But sure, I have minor complaints (there's always those): The flight models are not super atomic accurate, the trim is clunky, the rudder etc etc...

Anyways, all that I can get used to. In fact, I have gotten used to all that.

 

What I'll never get used to however, is how the AI gives up and goes into drone mode.

It never fails. In a dogfight it does two or three aggressive moves and then...it just flies away. And when pursuing it it does make some fancy evasive actions, but the aggression is lost. Also, the old spider reflexes are still there. When YOU press the trigger - IT (the spider AI) immediately pulls away. Like it was programmed that way ?

It's like it has a direct connection to YOUR trigger button.

 

QUESTIONS:

Is there any mod that makes the AI fight longer?

or

Is there any way one can get the original AI of IL-2 1946 into this sim?

 

It would make such a HUGE positive difference if the AI got sorted out. Because this is the best looking and best sounding WWII flightsim for the Battle of Britain and North Africa right now. Surely, one can go to those areas of operations in the old IL-2 1946...but it will never look as good as it does in this sim, modded or or not.

Also, one can "play" battle of Britain in "modern" IL-2 but with only two aircraft of that period.

 

Alright, this is is my only really serious issue with CLOD. I hope it can get sorted some day.

 

cheers

Robin

[jollyjack]

For me the real upper would be a non Steam version ...

[343KKT_Kintaro]

24 minutes ago, SFC_Tako said:

Especially considering it's old age.

 

 

Hi Robin, I quite agree with most of your post, but not with the age thing. That Cliffs of Dover has an old core engine this is a mistaken preconception. If the Dover series engine is old, then all serious PC combat flight sims out there are equally old. Look at the release dates of:

 

DCS: 2008

Rise of Flight: 2009

IL-2 Cliffs of Dover: 2011

IL-2 Great Battles: 2013 (but it's a "Rise of Flight" porting)

 

What do share all of the above game engines? The answer is: all of them started development by 2003. So, for example, "Desert Wings - Tobruk" was released in 2020 and "Battle of Normandy" in 2022, but their respective cores date back to the period 2003-2006 mainly. Delays and refinement made Rise of Flight is released in 2009 and Cliffs of Dover in 2011, but the age of their core is the same. Is the latter unfinished? it is. Does the latter develop more problems and bugs? It does. But both belong to the very same generation of flight sims.

 

Other than that, Robin, if you are unhappy with something that is related to Cliffs of Dover, I suggest you create an account on the Bugtracker. You log in, you check if a bug or request (you want to notify) has been created, and if it hasn't been notified/requested, then you simply create the corresponding item yourself. I notified some bugs myself, bugs that ended up by being fixed, so the bugtracker is quite useful. You'll need to be patient though.

 

PS: yes, Jollyjack, I agree with you...

 

 

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

No easy way I know. 

 

Changing the mission files is the only method I know. Copy the attack fighters/ free hunt waypoints and place them around the area for them to patrol and stay there for longer before moving on. 
 

Still not a 100% method since eventually they will have passed all waypoints, so gotta time them right in the FMB. And it’s a lot of work. 

Only when we get a rework of the AI I think we will get this solved. 

 

[SFC_Tako]

30 minutes ago, 9./JG52_J-HAT said:

Only when we get a rework of the AI I think we will get this solved. 

 

Anyways, I appreciate the candid and direct answer.

It's silly such a great sim should be held hostage by faulty AI.

[jollyjack]

Isn't it some kind of logical that an (Ai?) attacker gives up after a while in real life due lack of ammo, fuel, courage etc? Maybe it's done just right LoL.

Program a Complex trigger or Force complete On/Off as shot of Mental Motivation Meth? A new MMM MCU group?

Edited November 28, 2022 by jollyjack

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

AFAIK this happens because the flight goes to the next waypoint and if the next waypoint isn’t one of the aggressive ones it will enter this cruise back home mode. 
 

Maybe if you set their bravery or some other skill slider higher/lower (like discipline) they will stay in the fight longer before changing waypoints. 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2022 by 9./JG52_J-HAT

[BOO]

you just ain’t shooting em down fast enough. ???

[Thundercracker]

1 hour ago, BOO said:

you just ain’t shooting em down fast enough. ???

The ai's way of telling you your not a threat. "Sod this I'm going home" ?

[Dagwoodyt]

On 11/28/2022 at 11:41 AM, 9./JG52_J-HAT said:

AFAIK this happens because the flight goes to the next waypoint and if the next waypoint isn’t one of the aggressive ones it will enter this cruise back home mode. 
 

Maybe if you set their bravery or some other skill slider higher/lower (like discipline) they will stay in the fight longer before changing waypoints. 

 

 

Waste all the time you can afford on "skill" variations, but you will not be able to solve the "drone" behavior. In the VR progress videos you can watch Cr.42 AI dances where it looks as if the AI is in an "altered" state, making the AI chase look comical. In the vids the behavior is perceived as brilliant AI programming ?

[BOO]

17 minutes ago, Dagwoodyt said:

Waste all the time you can afford on "skill" variations, but you will not be able to solve the "drone" behavior. In the VR progress videos you can watch Cr.42 AI dances where it looks as if the AI is in an "altered" state, making the AI chase look comical. In the vids the behavior is perceived as brilliant AI programming ?

I saw less of the insane flip flopping than I’ve experienced currently in those videos. There must be some setting that affects this as if I change out the 109s for cr42s in the channel equal quick mission it’s a relatively sane experience. In another qm however ( can’t remember which) it was a totally different experience. 

[DBS]

I know dynmis.exe has an ai setting made by a gent called greybeard. In my experience this improves the vanilla ai. I don't know if there's a way to incorporate that ai into the base campaign/quick mission etc.

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

53 minutes ago, Dagwoodyt said:

Waste all the time you can afford on "skill" variations, but you will not be able to solve the "drone" behavior. In the VR progress videos you can watch Cr.42 AI dances where it looks as if the AI is in an "altered" state, making the AI chase look comical. In the vids the behavior is perceived as brilliant AI programming ?

Thanks for the heads up. It doesn‘t work then?

 

The only skill sliders I‘ve adjusted so far was shooting so they don‘t act like we‘ve gotten used to seeing. That is, shooting in long laser streams even without hitting anywhere close to the target. Near max it gets better (but they won’t miss…).

 

Or the constant rudder input the AI uses.

 

The Cr.42 can still pass for a pilot jinking… I‘ve seen other behavior with CloD’s AI which are more concerning lol (how many times can you aileron roll). CloD stable btw, not beta.

 

I would like to believe with a proper mix of the sliders one or the other problem can be made less noticeable…

[Rei-sen]

IMHO, the AI should be the No.1 priority for the next release, otherwise the SP part of the game is just unplayable, except for the all sorts of ground attack.

 

However, I have a feeling that it'll never be addressed, unfortunately.

 

From what I can see, devs are more focused on the MP part, which is sad.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Arthur-A

[Dagwoodyt]

If there is a "skill" combo that can prevent AI from adopting target drone behavior after a series of aggressive passes, no one has yet defined it. I doubt that skill levels are related to that behavior.

7 minutes ago, Arthur-A said:

IMHO, the AI should be the No.1 priority for the next release, otherwise the SP part of the game is just unplayable, except for the all sorts of ground attack.

 

However, I have a feeling that it'll never be addressed, unfortunately.

 

From what I can see, devs are more focused on the MP part, which is sad.

I feel sure that the developers have done their best to address the "target drone" behavior, but haven't been successful thus far. The behavior is less obvious when there are multiple opposing aircraft in a mission, but cannot be hidden in 1v1.

[Dagwoodyt]

I am unable to suspend disbelief when I see AI Cr.42's "jinking" in videos.

[Sokol1]

On 11/28/2022 at 3:59 PM, jollyjack said:

Isn't it some kind of logical that an (Ai?) attacker gives up after a while in real life due lack of ammo, fuel, courage etc?

 

I, and other guy, did a test while back and conclude that the issue is, after AI engage XXX seconds, all their tasks are canceled - include waypoints to follow, they turn in direction of the home base and enter in landing mode, why they don't react aggressive if you attack then. Is somewhat broken in their logic.

 

See, just after the merge, the waypoints 2, 3 for the white plane with with flag (under control or AI - player is just expectator) is ignored, he became linked with landing site:

 

 

Topic: "AI the elephant in the room."

 

 

Edited December 2, 2022 by Sokol1

[BOO]

2 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

I am unable to suspend disbelief when I see AI Cr.42's "jinking" in videos.

Never said it was perfect or great.  Just not as bad as I’ve experienced it. 
 

Edit sorry @Dagwoodyt, for some reason a whole  tranch of posts were missed when I posted somewhat out of context. 
 

2 hours ago, Arthur-A said:

IMHO, the AI should be the No.1 priority for the next release, otherwise the SP part of the game is just unplayable, except for the all sorts of ground attack.

 

However, I have a feeling that it'll never be addressed, unfortunately.

 

From what I can see, devs are more focused on the MP part, which is sad.

 

Could be true, could be false but  I’m not sure how much comes from the devs own focus as much as what they are able to actually do. It would make little commercial sense to me to focus a sim purely on MP. 

Edited December 2, 2022 by BOO

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

32 minutes ago, Sokol1 said:

 

I, and other guy, did a test while back and conclude that the issue is, after AI engage XXX seconds, all their tasks are canceled - include waypoints to follow, they turn in direction of the home base and enter in landing mode, why they don't react aggressive if you attack then. Is somewhat broken in their logic.

 

See, just after the merge, the waypoints 2, 3 for the white plane with with flag (under control or AI - player is just expectator) is ignored, he became linked with landing site:

 

 

Topic: "AI the elephant in the room."

 

 

It is even worse than I thought then. Thanks for posting this.

[Dagwoodyt]

The OP concern is not a new discovery. It has been raised repeatedly in past threads. I think that posting this well known issue to bug tracker would represent placebo at best. While AI "jinking" is a separate issue from drone behavior it is routinely seen in combination with the drone mode and without the AI ever becoming tired. This raises the question of whether there are any physiologic constraints on AI. Given my experiences in 1v1 combat vs AI, probably not. Sure you can have hundreds of AI in a mission, but if to get there one has to wink at all sorts of "weird and wonderful" AI gyrations it detracts from the "sim" experience.

[Mysticpuma]

Just the Ai's usual spiral downwards and downwards and downwards until the expected conclusion of it ploughing into the ground. Can be repeated over and over in every mission, this is the most irritating feature for me (and then the Radio Commands still not working ?) 

[Feldgrun]

On 12/2/2022 at 10:18 AM, Dagwoodyt said:

...one has to wink at all sorts of "weird and wonderful" AI gyrations it detracts from the "sim" experience.

 

I've been surprised at how all AI pilots were former barnstorming stunt pilots as they flip their planes all over the sky. It's nothing like the AI in GB, but I feel both are likely unrealistic extremes (just a guess... I wasn't there in WWII, but take a look at gun camera recordings). 

 

Regarding the AI drone modes... I rather like it. It's the only time I get a chance to sneak up on a fighter aircraft, where he doesn't know I'm there until I'm firing. AI's constant knowledge of my presence in sims has always been an annoyance to me as in reality, many kills were made by sneaking up on an unaware foe who fails to "check six." 

 

[Avimimus]

On 11/28/2022 at 3:31 AM, jollyjack said:

For me the real upper would be a non Steam version ...

 

Which some of us were promised btw. (anyone who pre-ordered).

 

The original release information (and some of the boxes) indicated a non-steam version.

 

It was a last minute deal made by the publisher to make it a steam exclusive!

[Sokol1]

A non Steam version will implicate in use another kind of DRM, with big chance to make things worse.