Pilot kills

[Talon_]

22 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Loke said:

Only real thing getting killed here, is the game it self. Just take a look at the MP servers, they are loosing more and more players.

 

Combat Box had 2000-2500 visitors each in the summer months, but in the autumn months 3000-3500  

[6./ZG26_Loke]

The 3000 is from when Normandy was just released, last Friday all low populated. 

[SCG_motoadve]

15 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

Combat Box had 2000-2500 visitors each in the summer months, but in the autumn months 3000-3500  

Combat Box (which is great) and Finish (Which I dont like )are the only popular servers right now, the rest are dying.

 

[BlitzPig_EL]

Those are the only servers that have had any sizable populations for some time.  Since this title launched multiplayer has been a wasteland of unpopulated servers.  There is nothing new here.

 

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the the pilot kill "issue", but blaming low numbers in multiplayer on it is a real stretch, if not downright disingenuous.

[Yogiflight]

12 hours ago, Charon said:

I've seen that before and believe it's simulating a hit on the 20mm ammunition in the wing.

 

11 hours ago, [F.Circus]Gorn_Captain said:

The 190's wing has a fairly large amount of ammo stored in it, .50 cals are more than capable of causing it to detonate if you're lucky

He was talking about a hit in the wing root. The only ammunition there is the the belt running from the stowage in the fuselage, in front of the cockpit, to the wing root guns.

[Lusekofte]

The servers tells one thing. Far between old players. All new people do is trying to replace people that left. 
I really hope this new thing coming is more complexity. Not more wt

[Dragon1-1]

4 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

The only ammunition there is the the belt running from the stowage in the fuselage, in front of the cockpit, to the wing root guns.

Wing root guns firing 20mm high-capacity shells, with their propellant. Take a look at what taking just one of them to the wing root can do, and think what it can do when it cooks off inside and sets off not only the explosive charge, but also the cordite in the casing. That's a recipe for a big bang if I ever saw one. 

[[F.Circus]Gorn_Captain]

8 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

 

He was talking about a hit in the wing root. The only ammunition there is the the belt running from the stowage in the fuselage, in front of the cockpit, to the wing root guns.

 

I'm not sure what your point is. There is ammunition in the wing root. With a lot of luck, a hit there is capable of detonating said ammunition. 

[6./ZG26_Loke]

17 hours ago, SCG_motoadve said:

Combat Box (which is great) and Finish (Which I dont like )are the only popular servers right now, the rest are dying.

 

I have it opposite, prefer Finnish and dislike Combax Box ?. 

[Dragon1-1]

7 hours ago, [F.Circus]Gorn_Captain said:

With a lot of luck, a hit there is capable of detonating said ammunition. 

A lot of luck or a lot of bullets.  The Jug especially has the law of very large numbers working for it. It puts out so much lead that you will hit something important. 

[Lusekofte]

1 hour ago, 6./ZG26_Loke said:

I have it opposite, prefer Finnish and dislike Combax Box ?. 

Finnish Server got 1 mission survivable for transports and that is supply. Sadly it is Airspawn that ruin it for me. 

[CountZero]

45 minutes ago, Lusekofte said:

Finnish Server got 1 mission survivable for transports and that is supply. Sadly it is Airspawn that ruin it for me. 

You can airspawn, and then go land on first airstrip, taxi to hangar, turn of engines, and then start from ground

They give you extra content for rolplay...

[Lusekofte]

32 minutes ago, CountZero said:

You can airspawn, and then go land on first airstrip, taxi to hangar, turn of engines, and then start from ground

They give you extra content for rolplay...

No. The moment you switch off the engines you supplied that airfields. 
But occasionally I do fly Paratroopers, but that is so damned hard to do without getting spotted when chutes opens. 

[ACG_Dickie]

On 12/6/2022 at 2:23 AM, 357th_KW said:

Written by Han in the 5.001 update announcement:

   “26. Aircraft DM: the several years old ‘crew health cheat’ (they required four point-blank 7.62 bullets in the torso or two in the head to be killed) has been removed. Now their ability to sustain damage is much more close to reality.”

 

Some data on what the levels are now would be nice.  I don;t care if they protect the pilot from reality anymore because right now, it sucks.  Get fired at and you more than likely wont be landing.

[Knarley-Bob]

It's funny how the AI can't seem to shoot each other down that well, but when shooting at the player, they are deadly accurate.

In SP career I've been killed so many times by a one in a gazillion shot it's not funny. I guess that is why they have a replay option.

Remember, it's just a fricken game.

 

KB

[Trooper117]

1 hour ago, Knarley-Bob said:

Remember, it's just a fricken game.

 

But games are meant to be fun, otherwise they are not worth playing...

[FuriousMeow]

2 hours ago, Trooper117 said:

 

But games are meant to be fun, otherwise they are not worth playing...

[Lusekofte]

9 hours ago, Trooper117 said:

 

But games are meant to be fun, otherwise they are not worth playing...

I come to the conclusion, not me having fun meaning someone else have. 
It is 100% instant death on first attempt when attacked by a fighter flying JU 52 or DC 3.  It is not a chance to ditch/crash land or bail out. 
This make MSFS the only option to survive. Or at least enjoy these planes. 
My only hope is TF get that VR going in clod since I have no option of 2 D at my city house  right now. 
For me this game is for 109 jockeys and pony humpers . It is their fun. 

[357th_KW]

1 hour ago, Lusekofte said:

It is 100% instant death on first attempt when attacked by a fighter flying JU 52 or DC 3.  It is not a chance to ditch/crash land or bail out. 
 

 

Out of curiosity, what do you think the outcome should be when a fighter encounters an unarmed transport?

 

Here are a couple examples from history. 

 

April 18th 1943 - Palm Sunday, Tunisia.  A formation of 65 Ju 52's escorted by a mixed force of Bf109s, Mc202s and Bf110s is attacked by 5 squadrons of USAAF P-40's (roughly 80-90 fighters).  Per Chris Shores "Mediterranean Air War, Vol 3", 37 of the transports were shot down with another 9 listed as damaged (and likely crash landed).  4 P-40's were lost to the escort, with a similar number of 109s falling. 

 

September 20th, 1944 - Holland.  25 Fw190s of I/JG26 are able to slip past the Allied escort and strike at RAF transports (Dakotas and Stirlings) resupplying forces engaged in Operation Market Garden.  They claim 17-20 transports shot down - per Donald Caldwell's "JG26: Top Guns of the Luftwaffe", actual RAF losses that day are 23, though some of those likely fell to AAA.

 

Transports like these were simply targets to fighters if they didn't have adequate escort.

 

Here are the stats from this month on the Finnish Virtual Pilots server for the Ju52: http://stats.virtualpilots.fi:8000/en/aircraft/70/NO_FILTER/?tour=58

From the Durability and Survivability stats, we can see that 25% of Ju52s that get damaged still return to base, and 44% of pilots survive.  Not great, but hardly the 100% death rate you are asserting.

 

Maybe we should ask the devs for a difficulty option of "bulletproof pilot" for people to use in SP?

[Charon]

48 minutes ago, Lusekofte said:

It is 100% instant death on first attempt when attacked by a fighter flying JU 52 or DC 3.  It is not a chance to ditch/crash land or bail out. 
This make MSFS the only option to survive. Or at least enjoy these planes.

This feels like a complaint about multiplayer mission design more than anything.

 

Neither of these planes has any business being in contested airspace. They're slow, unarmored, and basically defenseless. Why are you flying them in the presence of enemy fighters? Why would you expect any outcome but to die?

 

@357th_KW has some good examples above (I knew C-47s must have run into fighters at some point during Market Garden, but couldn't find it through brief searching). I'll also point out that at Stalingrad, Ju 52 pilots preferred to fly extremely low, relying on clouds and fog to mask them from Soviet fighters above; they apparently did not trust their escorts to protect them.

 

Maybe multiplayer servers need more foggy days and more night missions for the transport pilots, or maybe they need to move resupply missions further behind front lines. But that's a problem for server operators. The transports themselves seem to be performing exactly as they should.

[Lusekofte]

53 minutes ago, Charon said:

complaint about multiplayer mission

No it is not. It is now a fact that the Hollywood effect wished by the fighters since the very beginning now is a fact. I flown this literally from first day , and it has evolved slowly to this. For 10 years constant bitching from fighter pilots have given them what that want. Rubbish gunners and instant effect when they shoot. 
The only danger they face is flying into debris. I flown in Finnish server since they started. Do not even try to tell me this game got anything with reality. This is plain and simple a fps game for fighters. 

[SCG_motoadve]

Instant pilot kills are even ruining SP experience, its becoming a boring game, Il2 series are heading towards being more and more arcade.

[dbuile]

Are folks saying the pilot is "too big" and gets hit when it shouldn't, is that the claim?  

Didn't someone post values indicating head vs. body hits are detected?  Are folks saying the head should take more hits, or just want a slower death animation?

[Knarley-Bob]

21 hours ago, Trooper117 said:

 

But games are meant to be fun, otherwise they are not worth playing...

"The only way to win, is not to play"?

You are going to 'die' in this game. It's not 'IF' it's 'WHEN'. I just wish when didn't come so soon.?

How often does one pilot home a bird that is shot to pieces? VERY rarely. One burst and you are toast. (I'm talking SP Career) Mostly from behind, right through the armor plate. It is what it is

 

Redacted by author.

 

 

 

 

KB

 

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Knarley-Bob

[Trooper117]

25 minutes ago, Knarley-Bob said:

"The only way to win, is not to play"?

 

I didn't say that or mean to infer it... I'm a SP guy, but the SP experience is not what it was, and for me that means it's no longer fun to play.

I have several combat flight sims, and sorry to say it, but the SP side of things in the GB series is the worst out of all of them.

Pretty graphics and churning out more planes etc does not make a brilliant flight sim... plus the dev's have known for years now that the SP side keeps getting neglected and you would think that the bulk of players being SP they would have tried harder to sort it.

Couple that with the AI, plus the lack of proper control to your squadron and wingmen it is a sorry state of affairs.

If people like me have stopped playing, I haven't 'won' anything, but the games developers are loosing out because we SP guys are just going elsewhere... and that's sad, because the game looks great, but is being let down by other factors that never seem to get the love and attention the game needs.

[FuriousMeow]

So much subjectivity and opinion, no testing or verifying if rounds too easily make their way through a plane to kill a pilot.

 

Last night I played several times, the times I was shot up I lived until either I went vertical to bleed speed and I was popped in the head - big surprise there - by a trailing P38 or I dead stick landed and bounced because my rate of descent was too high. Every time I was shot up, the plane was heavily damaged. Mid/late to late war armament will pass through much of a plane easily and go through the small armored seat, and these aren't small rounds. I don't get why so many think the plane should be shot out from under them the majority of the time and their meat puppet manages to survive through that.

 

[Lusekofte]

38 minutes ago, FuriousMeow said:

So much subjectivity and opinion, no testing or verifying if rounds too easily make their way through a plane to kill a pilot.

I can honestly say that I have not yet emergency landed or bailed out in any bomber past year. It either kill the pilot or disintegrate   In first pass

It is a joke. There is no need for a video

Edited December 17, 2022 by Lusekofte

[Knarley-Bob]

Well, if one riddles an AI fighter, it's Swiss cheese, leaking fluid out of every orifice and still lands safely. Or comes back and shoots you down, where is the explanation for that? Shouldn't it's "meat puppet" be dead also? It seems the "game's" purpose is to kill the player. And it does so with prejudice.   

The amount of 'one burst' deaths for players way out numbers the 'one burst' kills a player scores. 

On muti player, I have no clue, I have no experience there, really.

"The only way to win is not to play"? And what I meant, is, that's how it feels playing this game sometimes.......... You ARE going to 'die', there is no doubt. Alot of how soon, is the plane you take into battle too.

Taking up a good fighter, you might last quite a while, a fighter/bomber, not as long. I can just imagine a transport.........?

 

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that if the game didn't kill the player off so soon, or so often, the game WOULD be more fun.......

 

KB

Edited December 17, 2022 by Knarley-Bob

[LukeFF]

7 hours ago, Lusekofte said:

No it is not. It is now a fact that the Hollywood effect wished by the fighters since the very beginning now is a fact. I flown this literally from first day , and it has evolved slowly to this. For 10 years constant bitching from fighter pilots have given them what that want. Rubbish gunners and instant effect when they shoot. 
The only danger they face is flying into debris. I flown in Finnish server since they started. Do not even try to tell me this game got anything with reality. This is plain and simple a fps game for fighters. 

 

That's nothing but sour grapes, dude. 

3 hours ago, Knarley-Bob said:

You have to remember; the pilot attrition rate was right around 80%. 8 out of 10 didn't make it home.

 

No disrespect meant to your father, but that statistic isn't even close to being true. 

32 minutes ago, Lusekofte said:

It is a joke. There is no need for a video

 

Well, then don't expect much empathy when you ask for changes and yet are unwilling to provide supporting evidence. ?

[Charon]

8 hours ago, Lusekofte said:

Rubbish gunners and instant effect when they shoot. 
The only danger they face is flying into debris. I flown in Finnish server since they started. Do not even try to tell me this game got anything with reality. This is plain and simple a fps game for fighters. 

I agree that gunners are broken; I've even posted data about it in another thread. And because they're broken, fighter pilots can safely sit at 6 o'clock and pepper bombers without fear. That's just one of the many, many real problems with bombers. But that's not really relevant to the C-47 (unarmed) or the Ju 52 (with inadequate coverage). Nor do I regard pilots dying when shot as one of those real problems.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Charon

[6./ZG26_Custard]

The woes of the Ai gunners started around 12 months or maybe a little more.

 They can't hit the broad side of a barn. As for pilot deaths, I got so fed up of the instant death ray of doom that I quid flying regularly after 8 years online, in this iteration of Il2.   

[CountZero]

5 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

The woes of the Ai gunners started around 12 months or maybe a little more.

 They can't hit the broad side of a barn. As for pilot deaths, I got so fed up of the instant death ray of doom that I quid flying regularly after 8 years online, in this iteration of Il2.   

Its fighter player game, we cant have gunners ruining their hartman larping...  buy more 109s

[BlitzPig_EL]

I wish the Stukas that I go up against were so bad at their gunnery.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

3 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I wish the Stukas that I go up against were so bad at their gunnery.

Dunno, but the 88's are pretty crap too.

 

And the Pe-2's

 

 

I don't fly in Co-Op or SP enough to make a judgement but in multiplayer they suck. 

You can see in at one point in this video that aircraft attacks from low six but for some reason the gunner fires up in the air?? 

 

 

[Charon]

I've seen the same as @6./ZG26_Custard when testing in single-player. Even when presented with easy, easy shots (a 109 closing slowly on a Peshka from dead-six), they'll waste their opening bursts firing several degrees off, sometimes not even on the same side of the plane.

 

I think they're hampered by guns that throw shots wildly. Here's a composite image of gunfire from an overheating UB in the rear of a Pe-2, made by overlaying several screenshots without moving the gun.

 

Each tick is 10 mil. Note how, once it starts overheating, the UB throws shots +/- 25mil to the side (vertical dispersion is probably similar, but harder to illustrate). That degree of inherent inaccuracy means you can be aiming directly at a 109 at 200m and your shots will be scattered around a circle with the same diameter as his wingspan. Any hits at that point are pure luck.

[Noisemaker]

26 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

Dunno, but the 88's are pretty crap too.

 

And the Pe-2's

 

 

I don't fly in Co-Op or SP enough to make a judgement but in multiplayer they suck. 

You can see in at one point in this video that aircraft attacks from low six but for some reason the gunner fires up in the air?? 

 

 

All very compelling evidence of a problem with AI gunnery on the bombers.

Missing, however is a single example of an instant pilot kill, which is the subject of this thread.

[Knarley-Bob]

27 minutes ago, Noisemaker said:

All very compelling evidence of a problem with AI gunnery on the bombers.

Missing, however is a single example of an instant pilot kill, which is the subject of this thread.

We'll work on that for ya..................? 

 

Do one burst wonders work?

Edited December 17, 2022 by Knarley-Bob

[BlitzPig_EL]

I was just going after a 410 on my server.  Just to prove a point I attacked from dead astern in a Tempest.  Boom headshot, golden BB at .68km.   Tried again in Mustang, plane shot out from under me.  I guess it's very plane dependent but 410 rear gunners are stone cold killers.

[DD_Arthur]

The way we were;  Wings of Flibberty years ago.  My highly decorated a.i. rear gunner - Sgt. Lee Harvey Oswaldski - takes down four 109's before breakfast

 

 

[CountZero]

6 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

The way we were;  Wings of Flibberty years ago.  My highly decorated a.i. rear gunner - Sgt. Lee Harvey Oswaldski - takes down four 109's before breakfast

 

 

This is how AI gunner in MP have to be, you have servers full of fighters, player in bomber need to have this type of AI gunner if you wont to have players in bombers when your game cant handle AI bombers that can be used as destraction from human player who have low chances geting to target or even back from it with no escort, no group of bombers and full servers of fighter players sholder shooting and ganging up on 1-2 ground attackers...