Armor plates in Bf-109 ineffective or inexistent in game, after patch 5.002b

[SCG_motoadve]

1 hour ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

The penetration values,ballistics, the damage modelling particularly on larger aircraft , the cardboard wing on the 109, the laser beam pilot kills and a whole host of other completely unrealistic issues need sorting. Unfortunately, as long as the vocal majority can kid themselves that they are flying in an "historical" way  as they racking up those 30+ online air kills in an evening of play and bragging about it as they show us the stats pages, I have little faith that not much of anything is going to change.      

IL2 is not fun anymore, has become an arcade game, has become very boring unfortunately, and many people has left.

I doubt developers will fix this, but I hope they don't bring this FM and DM to their next module. 

Were you are wrong is that is not the majority who wants this, its a little clan of online players with an ego about stats, who are very loud, rude and back each other on every post.

Unfortunately developers seemed to listen to this people.

Fortunately most of this rude people are banned for life from TAW which is my favorite server, because they were rude, racists and so on.

I have discovered other WWII options and I am having a lot of fun,  I liked IL2 but I don't have high hopes for any changes being made, good luck trying to convince people how unrealistic IL2 is now, I don't care care anymore ?

[FuriousMeow]

There's data, testing, and providing tracks if something seems out of whack. That is something verifiable and useful.

 

Then there's baselessly whining and complaining based on hurt feefees.

 

Guess which one gets things fixed if there's something amiss?

[6./ZG26_Custard]

4 hours ago, SCG_motoadve said:

IL2 is not fun anymore, has become an arcade game, has become very boring unfortunately, and many people has left.

I doubt developers will fix this, but I hope they don't bring this FM and DM to their next module. 

It's certainly fallen a long way from what it used to be and it seems to become more unrealistic with each tweak or "improvement". I never thought that I'd be so down on this game but all good things come to an end I suppose. Very little is historically realistic or accurate and there are many issues that are making the overall game experience unsatisfactory. As for hurt feefees, it's not so much hurt feelings but a level of sadness that Il2 has become a series of wasted opportunities. I wish the next iteration well whatever it may be but improvements most certainly need to be made. 

[Barnacles]

11 hours ago, FuriousMeow said:

There's data, testing, and providing tracks if something seems out of whack. That is something verifiable and useful.

 

Then there's baselessly whining and complaining based on hurt feefees.

 

Guess which one gets things fixed if there's something amiss?

 Here's a track I made just now.  The "wound" effect was from the fire" (There was no "wounded" message in technochat before that)

Whilst it uploads I'm running the test again several times (Auto level with an AI p47 shooting my six) and armour seems sufficient to never allow an injury to the pilot directly. (It sure stings a bit when he hits the deck after the wing eventually gets sawed off though :D)

 Test 2

Edited February 20, 2023 by Barnacles

[ACG_Cass]

 

[Barnacles]

On 2/9/2023 at 8:28 PM, FTC_Zero said:

Got recently pilot sniped with 50cal from the six in Hs129, which should have a huge armored fuel tank and an armored pilot seat. I think the game do not simulate a tumbling rounds after penetration. Also the bubble canopy of the FW190d9 which supposenly has additional sloped armor behind the headrest doest make much of a difference. Not saying that it is impossible, but having no protective properties at all? I do not know..

 1st test I did the pilot got PK'd in a HS129

2nd he didn't but the p47 broke off because he "destroyed" the plane

I did a few more tests an although I didn't get another PK, there were generally serious injuries to the Henchel pilot.

 

[Barnacles]

In summary though, it seems the 109 has fairly robust armour in game, (at least from dead six against the 50s that were the only weapon I tested.)as I only got pilot injuries with the HS129, not the ME109 ( I tested 109G2 and 109K4)

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by Barnacles

[Barnacles]

Off topic I know, because the OP is about the 109, but I'm curious as to what's different in the HS 129 that allows it to suffer more damage to the pilot than the 109.

Looks like the fuel tank is smaller, although there's (6mm?) armour?


It  

[ACG_Cass]

As far as I'm aware the Hs129 is heavily armoured from the front and below but only has the pilot seat for the rear (6-8mm).

 

According to the report posted earlier, even if a HMG round goes through 3mm of dural and flies for another 2m, it's sailing through another 8mm plate handily.

 

[LukeFF]

8 hours ago, Barnacles said:

Here's a track I made just now. 

 

You need to post the actual file that the game generates, not just a YouTube video. That's how the developers can have a proper look at what's going on.

[Barnacles]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

 

You need to post the actual file that the game generates, not just a YouTube video. That's how the developers can have a proper look at what's going on.

I don't think that's necessary, at least in those examples. In the situations in the videos, the game seems to be working as intended as far as 109 rear armour goes. I included the video as it may reassure that the people who feel like the game is unappealing because 109's armour doesn't live up to expectations, are currently playing a game in which the 109 armour seems to protect the pilot quite well in the tests I did, at least. 

 

Any issue with protection seems to lie with the question of the area protected by the armour, which is not really an issue in my videos. 

 

If I did find something where it looked like the game wasn't right, of course I would submit a track. 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by Barnacles

[Roland_HUNter]

9 hours ago, Barnacles said:

 Here's a track I made just now.  The "wound" effect was from the fire" (There was no "wounded" message in technochat before that)

Whilst it uploads I'm running the test again several times (Auto level with an AI p47 shooting my six) and armour seems sufficient to never allow an injury to the pilot directly. (It sure stings a bit when he hits the deck after the wing eventually gets sawed off though :D)

 Test 2

It's full RNG:

 

[ACG_Cass]

17 minutes ago, Roland_HUNter said:

It's full RNG:

At least we are getting somewhere.

 

You are talking about lots of rounds being fired at constantly changing angles, to say it's RNG is deeply flawed.

 

For each of those kills, go into the external camera F2 for the plane being shot and slow time down so you can see the round impacts. Then you can see if it is in fact RNG, or a case of the bullet have a viable path to the pilot.

 

Note any shots you took from lower down weren't getting through and we're clearly being eaten by the fueltank/armour.

[Roland_HUNter]

13 minutes ago, ACG_Cass said:

At least we are getting somewhere.

 

You are talking about lots of rounds being fired at constantly changing angles, to say it's RNG is deeply flawed.

 

For each of those kills, go into the external camera F2 for the plane being shot and slow time down so you can see the round impacts. Then you can see if it is in fact RNG, or a case of the bullet have a viable path to the pilot.

 

Note any shots you took from lower down weren't getting through and we're clearly being eaten by the fueltank/armour.

So the first kill is thousand of rounds not just 8? Please.

[Barnacles]

Here's an interesting one, I got PK'd by doing a slight weave with autolevel.

here's the video and link to the track files.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1R7DK0F34tC_2EqPGuoniGGYcvXwUAwmf?usp=sharing


The question here is:

Did the lethal bullet go through the armour?
Did the bullet go round the armour and if so, should the geometry have let that happen?

If that question can be answered then we will be able to tell if the game is being realistic, or the armour pen values or geometry of the hit boxes need to be changed. 

This is the angle just before the PK.

This is the moment of death

It is impossible for me to tell if the killer shot 
A. passed through the armour.
B. missed the armour yet hit the pilot.

 

[Barnacles]

If it is B it seems the angle doesn't have to be far off at all to allow a pilot hit.

[357th_KW]

That’s a nice example of just how little angle off is needed to completely bypass the fuselage.  If you can see the attacker, his guns have a line of sight to you.  

Edited February 20, 2023 by 357th_KW

[Barnacles]

1 hour ago, 357th_KW said:

That’s a nice example of just how little angle off is needed to completely bypass the fuselage.  If you can see the attacker, his guns have a line of sight to you.  

I think a factor must also be the alignment of the fuel tank and the armour plate.

[ACG_Cass]

3 hours ago, Roland_HUNter said:

So the first kill is thousand of rounds not just 8? Please.

Doesn't matter if it's 1 round and a kill or 1,000 and no kill. All the matters is the ballistics and whether it should go through that section.

 

2 hours ago, 357th_KW said:

That’s a nice example of just how little angle off is needed to completely bypass the fuselage.

A thought often overlooked is how narrow the 109 fuselage is. It really doesn't take much angle as its pretty much wrapped around the pilot.

 

50stests.zip

Anyone is welcome to load this mission up and give it a go. You can't really get low-6 or even dead 6 due to the planes angle with the gear down but shoot some aircraft and if something doesn't look at right upload the tracks for the devs.

 

 

 

[JV69badatflyski]

On 2/19/2023 at 7:44 PM, 357th_KW said:

This is a ridiculous straw man argument.  What @ACG_Cassis pointing out is that hitting 3mm of skin (meaning a joint or rib), followed by 2 meters of dead space, and 
etc...etc....

what everyone seems to forget, or conveniantly put aside (for different reasons, like the politicians...) is as simple as this:
The shape of the object  hit by the bullet will have as much influence as the material used, that's why i always take my popcorn and a beer when reading about the armor plate on the 190....cause just before being able to get to the armor plate, there is this tiny little thing made in 1cm perpex thet is very highly mucho rounded, called the canopy, that everyone seems to forget. And in most WWII planes there was also a lot of Junk just behind the pilot, like Radios and others "electronics"(hum-hum) that also served as "armor plates"...
And before before receiving some flak, take the penetration table for a 152mm gun on your knees and check what penetration does it have at 10meters and then look at this vid and ask Santa for a watermeloon airplane:

 

[6./ZG26_Loke]

8 hours ago, JV69badatflyski said:

what everyone seems to forget, or conveniantly put aside (for different reasons, like the politicians...) is as simple as this:
The shape of the object  hit by the bullet will have as much influence as the material used, that's why i always take my popcorn and a beer when reading about the armor plate on the 190....cause just before being able to get to the armor plate, there is this tiny little thing made in 1cm perpex thet is very highly mucho rounded, called the canopy, that everyone seems to forget. And in most WWII planes there was also a lot of Junk just behind the pilot, like Radios and others "electronics"(hum-hum) that also served as "armor plates"...
And before before receiving some flak, take the penetration table for a 152mm gun on your knees and check what penetration does it have at 10meters and then look at this vid and ask Santa for a watermeloon airplane:

 

That is exactly what l, @6./ZG26_Custard and others have said all the time, about being pk from an aircraft camping on our six when flying bombers. 

Now you have full loaded cargo planes ie Ju-52 and C-47 where you get pk right away from a fighter sitting on your six. 

 

Now, could I have some watermelon? 

[6./ZG26_Custard]

23 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Loke said:

Now, could I have some watermelon?

Pssssft who needs armour. The solution is clear now. We just load our aircraft with melons and laser beams of death PK's will be a thing of the past! Having said that if there are no watermelons available the Devs certainly need to overhaul the penetration values, the damage model and most certainly ballistics modelling, which seem to have little to no effect.

[ACG_Cass]

Ah yes lined up watermelons, the large fruit made up mostly of water....the liquidy thing that is known to dissipate the energy of bullets incredibly effectively.

 

That of course will be applicable when discussing a 1cm perspex or sheet metal armour....

 

It is actually applicable with regard to a full fuel tank, which I've seen no evidence of a 50 cal puncturing.

 

This is all very disappointing. I've yet to see a single track or video showing penetration where there shouldn't be on the 109/190. If there is then it absolutely needs to be looked at by the devs and I'm more than happy to take it to them.

 

@6./ZG26_CustardThe point around the larger aircraft (C47, B25, He111 etc.) does stand. The rounds do seem to be too reliably getting through when fired through the whole fuselage. This should be looked at but its only relevant to shots from a very specific angle directly behind and is likely down to the many components within the aircraft not being modelled. Its not an easy fix while maintaining performance levels.

[Regingrave-]

17.11.2022 в 21:36, III/JG52_Otto_-I- сказал:

It seems that after last patch 5.002b (nov. 2022), the Cal.50" bullets are laser beams again. Only 3 bullets shooting from a P-51 were enough to kill my pilot.
The problem is not, the nonexistence of the Bf-109 armor plates in game, the big problem is this occurs the 75% of the sorties, or more. ... and it´s not realistic, and it´s not funny too.

You seemingly missing the last sentence of the point 3 of the cited report, which clearly says that there is no armor protection against .50 rounds above the duralumine package and the fuel tank, as the headrest don't provide enough armor, whether it's armor or armored glass. It's probably was exactly the case.
 

11.02.2023 в 13:36, VO101Kurfurst сказал:

Given real world trials, its seems very dubious that either the Berezin or Browning M2 rounds could have been effective in penetrating the 8mm angled pilot armor on the Bf 109, after going through the structure, given there was still some additional 25-30 mm dural sandwhich plate behind the fuel tank (or a large MW 50 tank filled with water) and the fuel in the tank tank, which all slowed down the projectiles even more, and given that trials have shown that their penetrative capability was optimized for direct hits but was much reduced (to 8.5mm and 10.5mm at 100m distance, with dead-on 90 degree hits, respectively) after going through the simulated aircraft structure (3mm dural plate set at 20 degrees), such as the fuselage of an aircraft hit from behind.

The armor is there and pretty much working (I've tried it on F4), although Soviet report from tryouts on distance of 100 m indicates that after penetrating both fuel tank (filled with water) and 20 mm duralumine package (which is estimated as 6 mm of German armor or 4 mm of Soviet) .50 API BS rouds start cracking pilot's armor plate (10 mm Hs-129 plate were use instead of the original 109's 8 mm) and penetrate it with the fifth hit. The report concludes that the protection of 109s against .50 bullets hits is just slightly above the minimum requirements.

 

Скрытый текст

 

[mightywolf]

From Wanye Thomson "Air Leadership: Proceedings of a Conference at Bolling Air", pg. 18:

Spoiler

 

 

We should find this firing trial that Air Chief Marshal Hugh Dowding is speaking of before resting this thread to bed.

[the_emperor]

Though I am not quite sure whether the game does the AP reduction into account as tested by the germans, 

but thus far my experience is, that PK are usually owed to bullets entering then cockpit at angles where there no armour.

this is of course owed to the game where (ultra) high deflection shots are quite common.

Also its not just the .50 but I also get quite often one shoted in my Spit with the 13mm 

[6./ZG26_Custard]

11 hours ago, mightywolf said:

From Wanye Thomson "Air Leadership: Proceedings of a Conference at Bolling Air", pg. 18:

Very interesting and thank you for sharing unfortunately it probably won't make any difference at this point.

[ACG_Cass]

On 4/9/2023 at 5:30 AM, mightywolf said:

We should find this firing trial that Air Chief Marshal Hugh Dowding is speaking of before resting this thread to bed.

I'd like to see this too. Particularly as the below test from 1941 on a mock He111 shows rounds that are inferior to late war .50 AP rounds likely had the capability to puncture the Me109 armor. Even having gone through the outer aircraft structure and in some cases done significant damage passing through.

 

 

[Hitcher]

Someone should contact one of those youtubers that simulate armour penetration like "SY Simulations" or  "Dejmian XYZ Simulations" to see if they'd be willing to test .50 Cal performance against amour plate after hitting aircraft skin or a component. even maybe a 109 fuel tanktm test could be enlightening. 

[ACG_Cass]

Next time I'm at the archives I will see if I can check out the 2 below. First one might contain the report mentioned above.

 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C507077

 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4023729

 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4023748

Edited April 11, 2023 by ACG_Cass

[gimpy117]

On 4/11/2023 at 1:13 PM, Hitcher said:

Someone should contact one of those youtubers that simulate armour penetration like "SY Simulations" or  "Dejmian XYZ Simulations" to see if they'd be willing to test .50 Cal performance against amour plate after hitting aircraft skin or a component. even maybe a 109 fuel tanktm test could be enlightening. 

already tried to see what a .50 does tumbling through a wing