Good ancient history show!

[CanadaOne]

Finally some serious TV worth watching. 

 

Seen Graham on Joe Rogan's show a few times. Listened to some of the episodes with him and Randall Carlson several times. Great stuff, super interesting.  Even when Graham is speculating or just guessing, it's always interesting. No space alien garbage on this, it's just super interesting anthropology and a look at the possible civilizations wiped out by a great flood at the end of the last ice age 12,000 years ago. 

 

Did I mention it's really interesting?  

 

 

[CanadaOne]

No other budding anthropologists? Too bad. Great series. Episode 5 is about Gobekli Tepe. 

 

The Pyramids are closer to us in age than they are to Gobekli Tepe. Blows the lid off the idea of only hunter/gatherers 12,000 years ago.

 

[Nocke]

As far as I know the real surprise it is was actually hunters and gatherers who built this.

[CanadaOne]

4 hours ago, 216th_Nocke said:

As far as I know the real surprise it is was actually hunters and gatherers who built this.

 

That's the fun of it - the debate about what's true. And we certainly don't know, that's for sure.

 

Apparently Gobekli Tepe is pretty damn big, most of it is still underground, and there is evidence it was all deliberately buried. And it was all done about 12,000 years ago. Definitely a good story in there.

[Trooper117]

I don't do subscription TV otherwise I'd probably watch it...

[Cloyd]

You lost me at 'Joe Rogan'....

[CanadaOne]

4 hours ago, Cloyd said:

You lost me at 'Joe Rogan'....

 

Joe is great, he talks to everybody about everything. Complete free speech. 

 

One of his best episodes is this one with Graham Hancock and Randall Carlson, all about the end of the last ice age. Three-hours of great back and forth about ancient history with people on both sides of the issue. Everybody gets their share of time to thrash it out. Totally engaging. 

 

 

[343KKT_Kintaro]

Fascinating.

 

The video still is running, I'll watch it in its entirety.

 

Just one comment so far: Denisovans are not considered a distinct species by all scientists. The remains attributed to Denisovans make so much sense when it comes to talk about Human prehistory as particular populations of Neanderthals (or even particular populations of modern humans) make sense when it comes to talk about the overal population of Neanderthals (or the overall population of modern humans). Denisovans, for now, are nothing but ongoing under-study specimens... pieces of bone... an isolated tooth... very few stuff.

 

For the record: I'm not a scientist, only an amateur.

 

Thx for that stuff.

 

 

[Cloyd]

I'd rather debate who's the Greatest Of All Time, Wayne Gretzky or Bobby Orr. Being from the Boston area, and having seen Orr play live many times when he had two knees, I'll go with Orr.

 

Sorry, completely OT. I'll bow out now.

[CanadaOne]

21 minutes ago, Cloyd said:

I'd rather debate who's the Greatest Of All Time, Wayne Gretzky or Bobby Orr. Being from the Boston area, and having seen Orr play live many times when he had two knees, I'll go with Orr.

 

Sorry, completely OT. I'll bow out now.

 

 

That's the great thing - there is enough going on for everybody to find something they like. I like history, you like sports, and my buddy likes studying old string instruments. Perfect. Everybody gets something.

 

By the by, I dislike hockey except for when Montreal plays Boston, and then Boston becomes the focus of all that is wrong with god's creation. ?

[Enceladus828]

Holy cow, I absolutely love Graham Hancock! I read Fingerprints of the Gods as my silent reading novel in Grade 12 English which happened to be the book I did a book report on.

With The Great Pyramid, if you take its perimeter of 3023 feet and divide it by its peak of 481, you get exactly 2 pi, where it's positioned on Earth is 29.9792458 degrees North... which is the speed of light in m/s! They have right 90 degree angles with an error of a hundredth of a degree, from an aerial point of view, if you ran your finger from the center of each side of this Pyramid, all the way around the world you would come back at the exact same spot, and lastly, from an aerial point of view the 3 Pyramids of Giza perfectly align with how the stars in Orion's belt in the Orion Constellation were positioned 12,450 years ago (this is also the same with a site in Mexico called Teotihuacan and mercury was used there)! Now is all of this just a big coincidence? I think not.

With Teotihuacan, nobody knows who built it, and the name comes from the Aztecs which means 'City of the Gods'. 

 

Discoveries of Zinc and HCl in Pyramids of Giza indicate that they were used as power generators then used by the Pharaohs to bury their dead. 

 

In the Turin Papyrus, it gives the reigns and their lengths of all the monarchs of Egypt: the gods, mythical monarchs, and the Pharaohs we have in historical records like Tutankhamen and if you add them up they indicate Egypt has been a country for 40,000 years.

 

 

There are sites in South America which have large rocks weighing many tons that are cut and placed/stacked on top of each other so perfectly that you can't even stick a sheet of paper or a needle through at any point, and for some places if you ran your finger along the side you would cut your finger! This is also the same for some structures in Egypt such as the Osirian Temple. The explanation is that people used a rock and chisel to form and shape these stone blocks. There is one site in Bolivia called Puma Punku in Tiahuanaco which has stone blocks weighing over 100 tons, high precision drill holes, and all of the blocks appear to have been cut very straight and with precision that can only be accomplished by routers and cutting computers. In 1945, Arthur Poznansky, who studied the site for 50 years, determined that it had been built 17,000 years ago as during the Summer and Winter Solstices, the Sun rises over a temple, but in Spring and Autumn equinoxes the Sun didn't rise over two adjacent rocks but it did 17,000 years ago. 

 

As for how ancient people moved these stone blocks, the explanation is that they got hundreds or thousands of people, rope and rollers to drag them. But what if this site and where they got the stone blocks is situated in an area above 10,000 feet where trees can't grow; therefore no rope and rollers, and what if you have to lift a 100+ ton stone block several feet into position and have no ramps... an example would be at Baalbek?

 

How did ancient people know and how were they, with just ancient tools, able to achieve all of this?

 

The answer is that over 12,000 years ago, humanity was far more technologically advanced than today and this civilization was destroyed in the Great Flood in the Bible. My theory is that because in the Bible it states that humans lived to almost 1,000 years of age during the time of Noah/before the Great Flood. Therefore, great minded people like Einstein and Tesla would have lived for hundreds of years and their ideas and new discoveries would last for hundreds of years. With that, society would progress from a stone age to a technological age much quickly than if people only lived to almost 100 years of age.

I brought this theory up to the Lead Pastor at a church I attended, and he told me that many years ago he took his group to a University in Oregon where a professor talked to them about evidence of advanced technology 6,000 years old. He brought up the Tower of Babel and he believed that God also cursed our brains so we have less access to the full capacity of our brains. The professor's conviction was that the more mankind sins, the less we have access to the full capacity of the human brain as "why would God create mankind with such an incredible brain to only limit access to around 10% of it?".

 

Hancock recently published a book called America Before in which he talks about how new discoveries indicate humans have been in North America for 130,000 years; the Haida Gwaii people say they've been there for 30,000 years.

I'm interested in getting this book.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Enceladus

[CanadaOne]

A lot of that is beyond my own views, but nothing wrong with that since my views are at the very least incomplete.

 

Good fun to speculate though. The more discussion the better. 

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

 

 

If you haven't already found it, Fall of Civilizations channel on YouTube is an excellently done series.  Every episode has both audio-only podcast version and a version with video.  The podcast version is great to listen to while free flying in QMB.   ( I posted the first episode in order to get the IRL to link in the forum format. )

[Bremspropeller]

7 hours ago, Enceladus said:

The answer is that over 12,000 years ago, humanity was far more technologically advanced than today and this civilization was destroyed in the Great Flood in the Bible. My theory is that because in the Bible it states that humans lived to almost 1,000 years of age during the time of Noah/before the Great Flood. Therefore, great minded people like Einstein and Tesla would have lived for hundreds of years and their ideas and new discoveries would last for hundreds of years. With that, society would progress from a stone age to a technological age much quickly than if people only lived to almost 100 years of age.

 

So people were advanced enough to duck with our genomes but for some reason couldn't figure out how to build a boat. Yeah, I'm afraid you lost me there.

I like the idea of being a little more open minded, though.

 

There's plenty of ways in coming up with a "great tragedy" and not use any kind of scripture. The plague in South America almost wiped out all civilisations at once. If there had been one great "get back to square one" influence, it had to be something different than what can be countered by technology postulated to be available at the time.

 

 

 

[Zooropa_Fly]

Look up 'Grand Solar Minimum'.

[CanadaOne]

3 hours ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said:

 

 

If you haven't already found it, Fall of Civilizations channel on YouTube is an excellently done series.  Every episode has both audio-only podcast version and a version with video.  The podcast version is great to listen to while free flying in QMB.   ( I posted the first episode in order to get the IRL to link in the forum format. )

 

 

Thanks for that, I'm going to give it a listen.

 

I've been doing the same thing for years; flying and listening to history lectures in the background. Good fun.

[cardboard_killer]

Earth might be fair
And all men glad and wise
Age after age their tragic empires rise
Da, da, da, da, da.
Built while they dream
And in that dreaming weep
Would man but wake
From out his haunted sleep

[Cloyd]

“There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.”

 

Mark Twain

 

 

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

Linking another vid from another channel I just discovered.  The Guy Fawkes episode was quite informative.

 

 

[Guest deleted@83466]

I watched scattered episodes of it, and imo, Hancock is completely full of it.  But I love these kinds of shows sometimes, because they are fun, especially when baked.  Reminded me of the In Search Of series with Leonard Nimoy, or The Bermuda Triangle, by Charles Berlitz.  
 

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by SeaSerpent

[Zooropa_Fly]

It's all interesting stuff, and for me Hancock ; Bauval ; West ; Schock all have made contributions and dare I say some 'discoveries'.

They've laid bare many startling facts, but have a tendancy to over-extrapolate information, allowing the imagination to take over at some point.

But this is what a lot of people tend to do - take a few basic facts and observations, then mould it all into conclusions that suit maybe what they wanted to find in the first place.

 

Any 'expertise' I have related to this is regarding Egypt, where I travelled around 8 or 9 times between 2002-2011.

Egypt is obviously where these chaps made their names.

First thing to say is the Board of Antiquities is a mafioso over there - anyone digging up anything that doesn't fit in with their 'tourist board' narrative usually gets expelled.

If it does fit the existing narrative, often they'll be booted out anyway, with the BoA stepping in and claiming the prize.

 

"The Pyramids were not built by slaves" says Mark Lehrner, because we found the workmans' village and they were fed meat and fish !

Have you ever tried to get starving people to lug heavy blocks around ?

 

Since my first encounter with the Great Pyramid, I never thought it was built as a tomb.

There's not a scrap of evidence to say it was, nor any of the others.

But of course there's a million and one, mostly whacky theories been going about for 100+ years, probably millenia.

I expect somebody, somewhere knows what it was put there for..

 

But wherever their conclusions take them, the guys above have collected a lifetime's worth of observational and scientific data, much of it undeniably startling.

RIP J A West.

 

S!

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by Zooropa_Fly

[CanadaOne]

9 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

I watched scattered episodes of it, and imo, Hancock is completely full of it.  

 

 

He's definitely making assumptions at times, but there is no denying that no one knows what the **** is going on. You've got Gobekli Tepe sitting there, for example, with everyone agreeing it's about 12,000 years old, when not that long ago everyone was also agreeing nothing of that nature was going on 12,000 years ago. The Great Pyramid of Giza is modern art compared to Gobekli Tepe. And it looks like there are lots of places built around that time. It's super interesting.

 

Given that we are so ignorant and biased when we look backwards, I enjoy some good colourful speculation.

 

 

 

9 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

But I love these kinds of shows sometimes, because they are fun, especially when baked. 
 

 

Welcome to Canada.  

[Enceladus828]

I finished the series yesterday and I absolutely enjoyed it! I really liked how Graham Hancock talked about lesser known areas that he believes were constructed before the end of the last ice age like in Indonesia, Malta, North America, the Bahamas and Turkey instead of these sites in Egypt, South America and Teotihuacan. If I ever go to Malta, it will be for something else other than my passion for it because of the heroic determination of its people during WW2. 

 

I wonder if in the three cavities below Gunung Padang are records of this lost civilization as in 1923, psychic Edgar Cayce -- known as "The Sleeping Prophet" would could correctly diagnose illnesses in patients who lived hundreds of miles away in his sleep -- had a trance in which he said the Pyramids of Giza and Great Sphinx were built in a span between 10,490 to 10,390 B.C. and there were records of this lost civilization under the Sphinx's right paw as well as in Bimini and the Yucatan? There could be more records elsewhere on Earth.

 

For the Piri Reis map, I don't believe Antarctica is depicted, I believe Reis ran out of room to fit the bottom of South America and drew it sideways... the Antarctic ice shelf isn't depicted... as Professor Charles Hapgood found evidence that Siberia and Antarctica had climates similar to Canada (Boreal forests) at the end of the last Ice Age, but a pole shift during this time put the Antarctic Continent in the Antarctic Circle.

But regardless, Piri Reis made this map in 1513 and it quite accurately depicts South America (including the Andes which hadn't been discovered yet). Since Ferdinand Magellan didn't embark on his voyage which passed through the Strait of Magellan before heading into the Pacifc until 1519, six years after this map was made, this would indicate that someone prior to 1513 had charted Brazil, the Patagonia Region and the Falkland Islands. Maps depicting South America didn't appear until 1562. If the Chinese did sail around the world in 1421 and charted South America, I don't believe they would have been able to produce the map to the Ottomans in a span of less than 90 years.

One question I've always had about the Piri Reis map is what is the island circled in red? It's not Haiti as that's below it. But when Hancock mentioned how the Great Bahama Bank was above water during the Ice Age and what it looked like above water greatly matches the island circled in red, it clicked into my head to what this island is. I also find it fascinating that the the Bimini Road is included (the yellow arrow).

 

Anyway, this map is absolutely mind boggling as it shows that Ferdinand Magellan was not the first person to sail around Cape Horn or through the Strait of Magellan, South America was charted before 1513, quite possibly long before, and someone 12,000 years ago charted the Great Bahama Bank when it was above water. Piri Reis even stated that he used 20 source maps to make this with some dating back to the 4th century B.C (2,600 years ago).

 

On 12/4/2022 at 3:30 AM, Zooropa_Fly said:

RIP West & Schoch.

I know John Anthony West has died but Robert Schoch is still alive.

[Zooropa_Fly]

Thanks Enceladus, and apologies RS.

Post edited.

 

S!

[itsbillyfrazier]

I started to watch this but I couldn't manage to finish the first episode...pseudo-history at its worst. 

 

Got to agree with this article about it too:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2022/nov/23/ancient-apocalypse-is-the-most-dangerous-show-on-netflix

Edited December 7, 2022 by itsbillyfrazier

[Rothary]

As someone who really loves history, I cant help but point out that it is admittedly very easy to fall for so called crackpot archaeology theories, if that's the only narrative you hear, and that's very much what this show is all about - pure pseudo-history. Graham Hancock is a notorious crackpot "historian" (to be blunt), best known for misrepresenting facts and history to fit his own pre-established narrative, completely ignoring the scientific process as well as any facts and history that contradict his theories, while simultaneously misrepresenting the entire field of archaeology as a dogmatic clique that Hancock is heroically fighting against in the name of "truth". The show can be very convincing if you lack previous knowledge on the subject, but falls very flat if you are familiar with the sites and the things he brings up. Several historians/archaeologists have already done videos where they analyse the show in detail and why it isn't any good.

 

Of these videos Stefan Milo's is a really nice one with a very fair, relaxed and open minded take on it and I believe if you enjoyed the show, you'll enjoy watching this video and learning more on the subjects/sites presented in the show as well. It is a rather long video at past 2 hours but you can consider it a documentary of its own, worth a watch.

 

 

The show falls very close to the same category with Ancient Aliens and other crackpot history shows that seek to support their own pre-established narrative, ignoring and misrepresenting facts to achieve that. Another good example of just that was already brought up in this thread, which is that we have supposedly have no evidence that the pyramids were built as tombs. This is simply not true as pointed out by this channel and specifically (very briefly) addressed in the video that I've timestamped below. For a more in depth look at the pyramids specifically, I can highly recommend this channel in general.

 

 

Another great channel regarding specifically cracking down on crackpot archaeology is miniminuteman, relevant playlist (not just the embedded video) linked below.

 

 

I hope this post helps at least someone get a deeper dive into the actual wonders of history, steering away from the likes of Graham Hancock.

[Bremspropeller]

2 hours ago, itsbillyfrazier said:

I started to watch this but I couldn't manage to finish the first episode...pseudo-history at its worst. 

 

Got to agree with this article about it too:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2022/nov/23/ancient-apocalypse-is-the-most-dangerous-show-on-netflix

 

The article asks an interesting question.

 

Why was the show allowed?

Because we're living in a free society where companies and private citizens themselves can decide whether to fund a show and air it, write a book and publish it and not some arbitrary, unelected panel that gets to decide what's "right" or "wrong". I have already spent some of my years living in one of those societies and I'm not having any of that again.

 

Talking about "facts" in ancient history is a nice way of putting things. Reminds me of the "fact" we're all dying of climate change.

[CanadaOne]

3 hours ago, itsbillyfrazier said:

I started to watch this but I couldn't manage to finish the first episode...pseudo-history at its worst. 

 

Got to agree with this article about it too:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2022/nov/23/ancient-apocalypse-is-the-most-dangerous-show-on-netflix

 

That article was atrocious. The writer is flat out dishonest and wrote the article as if in a panic. 

 

How can he be of such an ignorant mindset as to ask "why the show was allowed?" That in itself shows he is biased and not bright enough to hide it. And to cite the show as "dangerous" proves his cowardice. A cowardice, I may add, he is trying to impart upon others. For my part, I never once felt in danger while watching that show, and anyone who did feel in danger while watching it requires an intervention and psychological assistance.

 

To compare a show on archeology to 9/11 & election fraud conspiracy theorists is stunningly clear proof of the aforementioned bias and panic the writer feels. To put it mildly - the writer is a complete ******* idiot. And a malevolent ******* idiot at that. He has every right to disagree with Hancock and to express that disagreement openly. I disagree with some of what Hancock says, but I never panicked about it as this writer did and pen what is possibly the stupidest article I've read in years.

 

I'm hard pressed to explain why the writer is so panicked with fear and so desperate to share that fear, but we should get back to the main point: it's a show about archeology and assumptions on the ancient history of man. That Stuart Heritage, the utter fool of a 'writer", penned that atrocious and dishonest piece trying to make all of this into an Us vs. Them scenario, with Them being an actual danger, is, as stated, the most flat out stupid thing I have seen in ages.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by CanadaOne

[itsbillyfrazier]

@BremspropellerThe Guardian article is a bit click baity, I'm sure there are far more dangerous shows on Netflix than this one.

 

However, I think somewhere in the last 20 or 30 years, educational standards, media standards and publishing standards have been eroded and gone to the wayside somewhat. Research standards for many big universities are under scrutiny too. Heck, look at the Theranos scandal and the 2008 financial crisis. The regulators don't regulate anymore. 

 

In an age where social media is now the university for the masses, and they have no regulation or have massive bias from those that run them (Looking at you Elon...) , I fear that we live in an age where people can no longer determine truth from fiction.

 

31 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

Because we're living in a free society where companies and private citizens themselves can decide whether to fund a show and air it, write a book and publish it and not some arbitrary, unelected panel that gets to decide what's "right" or "wrong". I have already spent some of my years living in one of those societies and I'm not having any of that again.

Look, i don't disagree with this sentiment and understand where you're coming from, but my fear is that many people don't question what they read or watch anymore and just take everything as gospel. I believe in free speech, but I'm also thankful for institutions who try to establish truth from fiction and i believe in regulation of media.

 

Im not the fun police, i enjoyed seeing some of the exotic places this guy ventured too, but I wasn't buying into his BS hypothesis either. I had to turn it off as it was quackery for fools in the end.

 

Anyway, each to their own...

[CanadaOne]

1 minute ago, itsbillyfrazier said:

 

 

Im not the fun police, i enjoyed seeing some of the exotic places this guy ventured too, but I wasn't buying into his BS hypothesis either. I had to turn it off as it was quackery for fools in the end.

 

Anyway, each to their own...

 

And you had every right to turn it off. It's your TV. The problem is with the idiot writer at The Guardian who thinks no one should see it. That sets off alarm bells and makes me want to see it even more.

 

As to it being quackery, I don't know. And maybe that's the big thing, no one knows. History is being rewritten with new discoveries and all kinds of new questions are being asked. That invites speculation, which is fine. And Graham Hancock has every right to speculate especially since he is willing to show it all to us while he speculates about it. And what I get from the show is 1001 big fat questions that have not been answered, and maybe won't be in my lifetime.

 

But if you are interested in watching Hancock and Carlson on Joe Rogan, showing evidence of a great flood across the western US, it really is compelling. Lots of pics like the one below that raise a lot of questions. I find it super interesting.

 

I think that "drain off" is miles across. You see that same thing on the side of gravel roads after a huge rain.   

 

 

 

[Jaws2002]

That was a good documentary, but it had pre arranged lines that were not supposed to be crossed, so you end up with even more question marks.

 

 One thing is certain. This is not our first Rodeo. We've been here before and our true history was probably wiped clean, multiple times.

 

 

[Enceladus828]

7 hours ago, Rothary said:

The show falls very close to the same category with Ancient Aliens and other crackpot history shows

Ancient Aliens is much more of a crackpot that Ancient Apocalypse. Aliens exterminated the dinosaurs 65 million years ago so humans could become the dominant species over 60 million years later??!! 
 

7 hours ago, Rothary said:

Another good example of just that was already brought up in this thread, which is that we have supposedly have no evidence that the pyramids were built as tombs.

How do we know that the Pyramids weren’t built as power generators by this lost, pre-Flood, civilization and then 8,000 years later were used by the Pharaohs as tombs?

 

Also, how do we know that the Great Pyramid was built for Khufu in c. 2550 B.C. as I have read that it relies on a single piece of evidence found in the fourth relieving chamber in the King’s Chamber in 1837 by Colonel Richard Howard Vyse. In 1837, Colonel Vyse led an expedition to Giza in which he used gunpowder to blast his way through the relieving chambers and on the walls and ceilings of the fourth chamber found the cartouche of Khufu. The pyramid was then dated to be 4,500 years old because that’s when it’s believed Khufu reigned. However, if it was built for Khufu then you would expect to find at least another inscription in the pyramid which mentions Khufu but there isn’t.

 

Graham Hancock says in Fingerprints of the Gods on page 302-03 “… from the beginning, ‘a certain smell’ hung over Vyse’s evidence:

1. It was odd that the marks were the only signs of the name Khufu ever found anywhere inside the Great Pyramid.

2. It was odd that they had been found in such an obscure, out-of-the-way corner of that immense building.

3. It was odd that they had been found at all  in a monument otherwise devoid of inscriptions of any kind.

4. And it was extremely odd that they had been found only on the top four of the five relieving chambers. Inevitably, suspicious minds began to wonder whether ‘quarry marks’ might also have appeared in the lowest of these five chambers had that chamber, too, been discovered by Vyse (rather than by Nathaniel Davison 70 years earlier).

5. Last but not least it was odd that several of the hieroglyphics in the ‘quarry marks’ had been painted upside down, and that some were unrecognizable while others had been misspelt or used ungrammatically.

Was Vyse a forger?”

 

Vyse wrote in his private journal “there was nothing in the chamber that looked like hieroglyphics”.  In light of this, in 2014, German students broke into the chamber and took a sample of the cartouche in which technicians determined that it was wasn’t added anywhere close to 4,500 years ago, but was added at a much later date. All of the evidence points to one explanation: Colonel Vyse had forged the cartouche of Khufu to ensure his expedition costing over 1 million pounds sterling in 1800s was worth it. 
Also, in the Inventory Stela, the Great Pyramid is referred to Isis, an Egyptian Goddess, as the “Mistress of the Pyramid” and not to Khufu. And it also shows Khufu repairing the Sphinx which would indicate that it was already there during his reign, therefore was not built by his son Khafre.

[Rothary]

1 hour ago, Enceladus said:

How do we know that the Pyramids weren’t built as power generators by this lost, pre-Flood, civilization and then 8,000 years later were used by the Pharaohs as tombs?

 

Mostly we know it from the absolute and complete absence of evidence to support the former and the overwhelming amount of evidence to suggest the latter, more on that below.

 

Quote

Also, how do we know that the Great Pyramid was built for Khufu in c. 2550 B.C. as I have read that it relies on a single piece of evidence found in the fourth relieving chamber in the King’s Chamber in 1837 by Colonel Richard Howard Vyse. In 1837, Colonel Vyse led an expedition to Giza in which he used gunpowder to blast his way through the relieving chambers and on the walls and ceilings of the fourth chamber found the cartouche of Khufu. The pyramid was then dated to be 4,500 years old because that’s when it’s believed Khufu reigned. However, if it was built for Khufu then you would expect to find at least another inscription in the pyramid which mentions Khufu but there isn’t.

 

The idea that the Great Pyramid was built for Khufu is, in fact, absolutely not based on a single piece of evidence. Claims like this are exactly the type of misrepresentation of facts and strawmanning that Graham Hancock is notorious for. So what other evidence do we have? Among other things, more inscriptions. The cartouche found by Vyse is one of several dozen inscriptions found on the stones of the Great Pyramid with varying meanings, including quarry marks and guidelines painted in the same type black or red ink, many of which are obstructed by other stones (that is, the marks were painted before the stones were placed down in their place). We can find similar quarry marks on other stones in temples built by Khufu, and the style of the quarry marks is in general consistent with quarry marks of the time. Below is but one example of other graffitis that are found within the Great Pyramid. The one Vyse found in the relieving chamber helped us understand back then that all these cartouches in fact refer to the same person, since the specific cartouche Vyse found combines the names Khufu and Cheops to refer to the one and same pharaoh, therefore all the cartouches mentioning Cheops, in fact refer to the same person, Khufu. It is however but one of about a dozen other inscriptions found in the pyramid that mention "The-white-crown-of Khnumkhuwfuw-is-powerful".

 

 

Second, we have contemporary records written by some of the engineers working on the constructing the pyramid (most notable one is a diary of one of the engineers), describing the quarrying and transporting of the stone used for its construction, with the pyramid (that is actively being constructed as described by the writing) being repeatedly referred to as that of Khufu.

 

Third, the Great Pyramid is very clearly but one chapter of the development of Egyptian pyramid architecture (both in exterior design and interior layout) and engineering, with very clear progression leading up to it, starting with Djoser's step pyramid, which is essentially just a bunch of mastabas stacked on top of one another to form a pyramid, with pharaos who came after making efforts to improve from this, most obvious example being pharaoh Sneferu with his multiple attempts at pyramid building with very clear progression, from the unfinished Meidum Pyramid to the Bent Pyramid and eventually what's today known as the Red Pyramid, the design of which the Great Pyramid is largely based on.

 

 

And fourth, radio carbon dating from traces of charcoal found in the mortar used for the pyramid's construction dates it back to Khufu's reign. Obviously carbon dating the charcoal does not directly mean the pyramid itself is the same age as the charcoal, but the pyramid cannot be older than the materials used for its construction, so what the carbon dating essentially gives us is the oldest possible age of the pyramid, therefore given the overwhelming amount of other evidence (only some of which I've brought up here) to suggest the same, we can quite confidently conclude the Great Pyramid must've been built during the reign of Khufu, for Khufu.

 

Quote

Graham Hancock says in Fingerprints of the Gods on page 302-03 “… from the beginning, ‘a certain smell’ hung over Vyse’s evidence:

1. It was odd that the marks were the only signs of the name Khufu ever found anywhere inside the Great Pyramid.

2. It was odd that they had been found in such an obscure, out-of-the-way corner of that immense building.

3. It was odd that they had been found at all  in a monument otherwise devoid of inscriptions of any kind.

4. And it was extremely odd that they had been found only on the top four of the five relieving chambers. Inevitably, suspicious minds began to wonder whether ‘quarry marks’ might also have appeared in the lowest of these five chambers had that chamber, too, been discovered by Vyse (rather than by Nathaniel Davison 70 years earlier).

5. Last but not least it was odd that several of the hieroglyphics in the ‘quarry marks’ had been painted upside down, and that some were unrecognizable while others had been misspelt or used ungrammatically.

 

Once again a prime example of Graham Hancock misrepresenting facts to add credibility to his own theories.

1. This is simply false, it is one of about a dozen inscriptions found in the Great Pyramid that specifically mentions Khufu ("The-white-crown-of Khnumkhuwfuw-is-powerful"), it is simply the best known one since it's the first one found by Vyse with ones found after merely acting as further confirmation for it.  It's much like the Rosetta stone. Everyone knows the Rosetta stone as the sole key to cracking the code of the hieroglyphs, yet we've found numerous similar stones since then that work perfectly fine as "Rosetta stones" on their own, but the Rosetta stone is the famous one, because it's the first one we found that cracked the code, despite now being far from unique.

2. Quarry marks tend to be for quarrying and transporting the stones and to help with construction, obviously they're not supposed to play a role in the final construction, so it'd be very odd if such were found anywhere other than in obscure out-of-the-way parts of the pyramid where it didn't matter if they were left visible. As also pointed out, many of the other marks and inscriptions we've found are specifically obstructed by other stones, because again, they're not an intended feature of the end product and were painted before the stones were laid down in their places.

3. This is simply false, the Great Pyramid as I've previously pointed out is very far from otherwise devoid of inscriptions of any kind, and in fact includes several dozen more of similar markings (as do Khufu's other construction projects).

4. See point 2 and 3, the inscriptions aren't an intended part of the final result, so there'd be little point to specifically and deliberately make sure they remain visible everywhere, but again as already pointed out, we do have several dozen of these marks all over the pyramid absolutely not limited to the specific one discussed by Hancock, despite him claiming otherwise.

5. See point 2.

 

 

Quote

Was Vyse a forger?”

 

Vyse wrote in his private journal “there was nothing in the chamber that looked like hieroglyphics”.  In light of this, in 2014, German students broke into the chamber and took a sample of the cartouche in which technicians determined that it was wasn’t added anywhere close to 4,500 years ago, but was added at a much later date. All of the evidence points to one explanation: Colonel Vyse had forged the cartouche of Khufu to ensure his expedition costing over 1 million pounds sterling in 1800s was worth it. 

 

Was Vyse a forger? The theory for this is mostly that Vyse would've forged the inscription to secure extra funding for his expedition (I don't know if this is what you mean given your specific wording, but this is the usual theory), but Vyse's expedition was in fact self-funded with no patron to please, and we have no reason to believe he was struggling financially himself. It is also extremely far from being the only result of Vyse's expeditions, him having done a lot of other valuable work, even if his methods were largely questionable. Vyse also had very limited understand of hieroglyphs and lacked sufficient knowledge on how to read or write them, hence why he wasn't the one who deciphered what the graffiti he found actually said, but simply copied it to show it to those who can (which was Samuel Birch). It would've been very impressive for a man who didn't know how to read hieroglyphs to fluently write hieroglyphs. The whole theory that Vyse forged it originates from Zecharia Sitchin and his pseudoscience book The Stairway to Heaven, in which Sitchin suggests the pyramids were built by ancient astronauts.

 

The German students fall much into the same group, specifically having an agenda to prove the pyramids to be older than all our evidence suggest. I call it an agenda because it is, much like Hancock's assertions, "facts derived from a theory" rather than "theory derived from facts". Now the specific graffiti in question may indeed be more recent than the construction of the pyramid itself, as suggested by Khufu being referred to by his short name instead of his full royal title, with the writing style also potentially matching that of the middle kingdom. This is, however, but one graffiti that specifically stands out from the others in the ways I just described. However, it'd still have been specifically inscribed by the ancient Egyptians, rather than forged by Vyse.

 

Quote

Also, in the Inventory Stela, the Great Pyramid is referred to Isis, an Egyptian Goddess, as the “Mistress of the Pyramid” and not to Khufu. And it also shows Khufu repairing the Sphinx which would indicate that it was already there during his reign, therefore was not built by his son Khafre.

 

The Inventory Stela has been widely accepted as a forgery (ironically with stronger evidence to support this than the idea that Vyse forged the graffiti he found).

1. It contains anachronisms

2. Khufu's name is introduced incorrectly for the time

3. Isis does not verifiably appear in Egyptian texts until after Khufu's reign

4. Isis has never had the title "Mistress of the Pyramid", the Stela would be the sole existing example of this

5. The stela mentions "king's daughter Henutsen", yet Henutsen was a queen consort with her actual parents being unknown. She is not known to be the daughter of a king.

 

I might also add that another thing pseudo-historians such as Hancock often tend to do, is focus on an outdated understanding of history as the "status quo" (which every historian and archaeologist out there would point out does not exist in the field and that the entire field is specifically about changing our view on history based on new discoveries per the scientific process, which Hancock ignores entirely) they stand to oppose and point out flaws in. Vyse does not represent our current understanding of ancient Egyptian history or the pyramids, nor the extend of our discoveries, and would indeed not be considered a good example of a qualified researcher who knew what he was doing, though this does not mean his work is not valuable. His theories are based on discoveries he was aware of or discovered himself back then. We've found a lot more since then, some of which specifically disprove some of Vyse's theories and educated guesses, while proving others. You wouldn't use a history book from early 1800's to figure out what our current understanding and view of history is, yet this is practically what Hancock does.

 

I once again highly recommend the YouTube channel "History for GRANITE", which goes to great depths discussing the pyramids and what we know about them (and why/how we know it), at times presenting his own speculation based on the facts we verifiably know. I also once again recommend (if you can find the time) to watch the video I linked earlier by Stefan Milo cracking down on the Ancient Apocalypse series, as a deeper dive into the fascinating sites and subjects presented by Hancock in the show.

[Monksilver]

Oh good a history thread. I wonder how many of you know that people once thought the pyramids were Joseph's granaries to guard against the 7 years of famine - seems a rather poor design for that.

 

Any way seeing the link to an item on Roman Britain I thought some of you may find the below of interest.

 

As you may know the below is the Welsh flag - Y Ddraig Goch. Ever wondered why we have a dragon on our flag?

 

 

The green field was added IIRC by Henry VII (who was Welsh and indirectly of the House of Gwynedd) when he used it in his quest for the English throne in 1497. Before that it was a white background only and that version was the flag of the royal house of Gwynedd, the main royal family of Wales before the English literally chopped them up in 1282.

 

The red dragon flat was recorded as being used by Cadwaldr, King of Gwynedd in 566AD. To put that in context that is 160 years before England existed as single state and 926 before Columbus arrived in the Americas. However, the symbol of the dragon, likely red goes back further. In 540AD Gildas referred to King Maelgwn of Gwynedd as being based on the seat of the dragon. The founder of the royal line of Gwynedd was Cunedda, he was originally based in what is now Scotland but then part of the area controlled by the celtic Britons, he then relocated to North Wales around 400 AD. His grandfather was Padarn Beisrudd, Beisrudd translates as red cloak, which is the type of cloak worn by Roman officers, I suspect he was a Roman cavalry officer. 

 

In 383 the Roman in charge of the legions in Britain, Magnus Maximus, took them over to Gaul to challenge to be emperor, which he managed for part of the western empire before being killed in 388. To keep Britain under Roman control without the legions he gave power to various local rulers. It is likely that this included Padard Beisrudd.  It seems reasonable to assume that Magnus would give those rulers something to show they had his authority or allow them to use some device that connected them to Roman authority.

 

The standard of the legions is of course the Roman eagle. But what about the cavalry? Their standard was not an eagle but a 'draco', or dragon. This was a dragon or serpent's head on pole with material behind that acted like a windsock. Draco's continued to be used after the Western Roman Empire collapsed, e.g. by Charlemagne. They came in different colours including red. It is not unreasonable to assume that Padard Beisrudd was given or already had a red Draco and used this to show he had the authority of Rome, or at least Magnus, with this being passed to his son, then grandson. This is the most likely reason why the red dragon became the symbol of the House of Gwynedd and through them Wales. 

 

Thus, the red dragon has been the symbol for Wales since about 383AD, 1,639 years ago.

 

In the first decades of the 5th century the Saxons invaded Britain and gradually took it over. The last part of Roman Britain to fall to barbarian invaders was Gwynedd with its draco flag in 1282, making it the last part of the Western Roman Empire to fall into the control of barbarians.

[DD_Arthur]

1 hour ago, Monksilver said:

The last part of Roman Britain to fall to barbarian invaders was Gwynedd with its draco flag in 1282, making it the last part of the Western Roman Empire to fall into the control of barbarians.

 

Not too sure about that.  Edward I was still essentially a Norman and the clue is in the name.  The last part of Roman Britain fell to a great power from the Baltic.

 

 

 

 

[Enceladus828]

1 hour ago, Rothary said:

Mostly we know it from the absolute and complete absence of evidence to support the former

Chris Dunn Giza Power Plant - YouTube (yes, I know, this is from a very questionable source, but I feel this is one of the few times where a strong argument is presented that looks credible... unlike other stuff where myself and many people are ROFL).

 

This is what I'm getting at, the Pyramids could have been used over 10,000 years ago as power generators, then after the Great Flood were abandoned, and then used by the Pharaohs to bury their dead. An example being Ricardo Bofill who spent 45 years transforming a WW1-era cement factory into a stunning home: An old cement factory is transformed into a stunning home | Home Beautiful Magazine Australia

We know just by looking at it that this used to be a factory, but if our civilization was destroyed right now, there were only a handful of survivors and over a time of thousands of they forgot what factories looked like, their generations thousands of years into the future may not know or suspect that this used to be a factory.

 

1 hour ago, Rothary said:

The idea that the Great Pyramid was built for Khufu is, in fact, absolutely not based on a single piece of evidence... So, what other evidence do we have? Among other things, more inscriptions. The cartouche found by Vyse is one of several dozen inscriptions found on the stones of the Great Pyramid with varying meanings, including quarry marks and guidelines painted in the same type black or red ink, many of which are obstructed by other stones (that is, the marks were painted before the stones were placed down in their place). We can find similar quarry marks on other stones in temples built by Khufu, and the style of the quarry marks is in general consistent with quarry marks of the time. Below is but one example of other graffitis that are found within the Great Pyramid. The one Vyse found in the relieving chamber helped us understand back then that all these cartouches in fact refer to the same person, since the specific cartouche Vyse found combines the names Khufu and Cheops to refer to the one and same pharaoh, therefore all the cartouches mentioning Cheops, in fact refer to the same person, Khufu. It is however but one of about a dozen other inscriptions found in the pyramid that mention "The-white-crown-of Khnumkhuwfuw-is-powerful".

 

1 hour ago, Rothary said:

Once again a prime example of Graham Hancock misrepresenting facts to add credibility to his own theories.

1. This is simply false, it is one of about a dozen inscriptions found in the Great Pyramid that specifically mentions Khufu ("The-white-crown-of Khnumkhuwfuw-is-powerful"), it is simply the best known one since it's the first one found by Vyse with ones found after merely acting as further confirmation for it.  It's much like the Rosetta stone. Everyone knows the Rosetta stone as the sole key to cracking the code of the hieroglyphs, yet we've found numerous similar stones since then that work perfectly fine as "Rosetta stones" on their own, but the Rosetta stone is the famous one, because it's the first one we found that cracked the code, despite now being far from unique.

2. Quarry marks tend to be for quarrying and transporting the stones and to help with construction, obviously they're not supposed to play a role in the final construction, so it'd be very odd if such were found anywhere other than in obscure out-of-the-way parts of the pyramid where it didn't matter if they were left visible. As also pointed out, many of the other marks and inscriptions we've found are specifically obstructed by other stones, because again, they're not an intended feature of the end product and were painted before the stones were laid down in their places.

3. This is simply false, the Great Pyramid as I've previously pointed out is very far from otherwise devoid of inscriptions of any kind, and in fact includes several dozen more of similar markings (as do Khufu's other construction projects).

4. See point 2 and 3, the inscriptions aren't an intended part of the final result, so there'd be little point to specifically and deliberately make sure they remain visible everywhere, but again as already pointed out, we do have several dozen of these marks all over the pyramid absolutely not limited to the specific one discussed by Hancock, despite him claiming otherwise.

5. See point 2.

 

1 hour ago, Rothary said:

The Inventory Stela has been widely accepted as a forgery (ironically with stronger evidence to support this than the idea that Vyse forged the graffiti he found).

1. It contains anachronisms

2. Khufu's name is introduced incorrectly for the time

3. Isis does not verifiably appear in Egyptian texts until after Khufu's reign

4. Isis has never had the title "Mistress of the Pyramid", the Stela would be the sole existing example of this

5. The stela mentions "king's daughter Henutsen", yet Henutsen was a queen consort with her actual parents being unknown. She is not known to be the daughter of a king.

Thank you for clearing this up for me. This isn't just Hancock, others and even programs have repeatedly reiterated that the dating of the Pyramid and its connection with Khufu relies solely on Vyse's discovery in the relieving chambers when as you point out, many other inscriptions do mention Khufu. Therefore, the Great Pyramid was indeed dedicated to Khufu.

 

1 hour ago, Rothary said:

The whole theory that Vyse forged it originates from Zecharia Sitchin and his pseudoscience book The Stairway to Heaven, in which Sitchin suggests the pyramids were built by ancient astronauts.

Yes, I know that Sitchin brought up that Vyse forged this. With his claims, how do you know whether the Sumerian texts describe fact or fiction; that's where I have my doubts. Also, if Nibiru is real and the Annunaki did come from there then they would have to have evolved on another planet in another star system as Nibiru according to Sitchin orbits the Earth every 3,600 years and for 95% of that time wouldn't get any sunlight therefore no life.

 

 

At the end of all of this, regardless if the Great Pyramid was built 4,500 years ago, or 12,500 years ago, one thing to me is certain: whoever constructed it understood high levels of mathematics. If you get out a calculator and punch in 3023 (the perimeter) and divide it by 481 (the peak), you get 2 pi. If you're off by up to +/- 2 feet with the perimeter it's not that big of a deal, but if you don't get exactly 481 feet then it's not 2 pi. If this was the only mind-boggling detail about the Great Pyramid then I'd say it's just a coincidence. But when you realize that where it is geographically on Earth is the speed of light in m/s, from an aerial point of view, the Pyramids of Giza perfectly align with the stars in Orion's 12,500 years ago, which is the same with Teotihuacan in Mexico (where mercury was used), then it's hard to debunk all of these things as a coincidence... at least imo.

 

Once again, thank you for clearing several things up for me.

 

 

[Rothary]

1 hour ago, Enceladus said:

At the end of all of this, regardless if the Great Pyramid was built 4,500 years ago, or 12,500 years ago, one thing to me is certain: whoever constructed it understood high levels of mathematics. If you get out a calculator and punch in 3023 (the perimeter) and divide it by 481 (the peak), you get 2 pi. If you're off by up to +/- 2 feet with the perimeter it's not that big of a deal, but if you don't get exactly 481 feet then it's not 2 pi. If this was the only mind-boggling detail about the Great Pyramid then I'd say it's just a coincidence. But when you realize that where it is geographically on Earth is the speed of light in m/s, from an aerial point of view, the Pyramids of Giza perfectly align with the stars in Orion's 12,500 years ago, which is the same with Teotihuacan in Mexico (where mercury was used), then it's hard to debunk all of these things as a coincidence... at least imo.

 

Once again, thank you for clearing several things up for me.

 

 

 

World of Antiquity YouTube channel run by historian and professor David Miano has a lot of good videos addressing among many other things the power plant theory as well as the math stuff, timestamped video below (parts of the video with a timer running are bits from the video he is addressing here, timer is there so people can easier verify that the video in question indeed makes these claims at the timestamp provided by the timer)

 

 

It is true however that those who built the pyramids were good at math among other things, so surely for this and various other reasons the pyramids must've been built by some advanced ancient civilization, and the answer to that is yes, we call them the Egyptians. This goes for everything from building the pyramids to cutting and carving granite etc. Pretty much any "this must've been done by someone more advanced than the Egyptians" or "this Egyptian thing must be something else than historians claim" you can think of have probably been addressed in one of Miano's videos, with many other history channels having done the same, another good example being the Dendera lights, as explained by Miniminuteman (YouTube)

 

I love videos like this because they debunk archaeology conspiracy / speudo-science theories while simultaneously explaining the actual history and what we actually know about the topic (and how do we know it). This is practically a more entertaining form of the peer review of the scientific process, addressing assertions that otherwise wouldn't be submitted for peer review in the first place. I find it in general more interesting to look into "alternative history" theories specifically from the perspective of videos like these, that more fairly provide the actual opposing arguments on this stuff, without misrepresenting the other side, while also explaining in detail exactly why these things aren't taken seriously in the field of archaeology (it's actually not because they "dare challenge the status quo"). It is both very fascinating and entertaining and I love it.

[Monksilver]

21 hours ago, DD_Arthur said:

 

Not too sure about that.  Edward I was still essentially a Norman and the clue is in the name.  The last part of Roman Britain fell to a great power from the Baltic.

 

 

 

 

 

Barbarians are those people who were from outside the empire. The Normans, as you say were Scandinavian in origin which was well outside the empire making them barbarians . 

 

So Gwynedd did fall to barbarians whether considered to be Saxons, Angles, Jutes, Normans/Norse or Frank.  Over 700 years ago so I don't think we should hold it against our neighbours now.

[DD_Arthur]

45 minutes ago, Monksilver said:

Barbarians are those people who were from outside the empire. 

Ahh….never knew that. I was under the impression they were a distinct group who invaded the Byzantine bit.

 

Just found out how incredibly old Hampshire is.?

[cardboard_killer]

I thought barbarians referred to those peoples who didn't speak Greek. Bar bar bar.