Why Isn't Desert Wings - Tobruk [More] Popular?

[Feldgrun]

With excellent flight & damage modeling, and with an excellent selection of mid-war aircraft, why isn't this game more popular? Steam Charts says in the last 30 days, the game had 0.0 players. CLoD Blitz had 23.2 players in 30 days, but you can see numbers dropping over time. Some have said CLoD & Tobruk are better flight simulators, but BoX is a better game. I'd agree with that, to a degree. 

 

What's wrong? Did CLoD's initial disastrous introduction taint the entire franchise? Is it because of the lack of VR, and if so, will that help it gain in popularity?  

[IckyATLAS]

I do not know the exact reasons. Maybe it lacks enough visibility on the flight sim scene. The reason why I do not play is that I find the overall visual quality of the map and environment not immersive enough. For me planes are not enough, the whole battle scene counts. The lack of VR is not an issue at least for me. After the brilliant IL2 saga that ended with 1946 and its editor that I used building Guadalcanal scenarios, I lived through the catastrophic launch of CLOD which just killed the thing for me and left a trace. Then came the BoX saga that is a success. I switched to BoX and to come back to CLOD after so many years is not appealing at all.

CLOD has many other elements that speak in its favor, but that's does not seem to be enough. I suppose that the team who is still working on it, they just do what they can with the graphic engine that they have behind, and they are stuck with it. They cannot improve it like the BoX dev team could do with theirs. Even with the BoX engine there are some technical limits as Jason pointed out. I suppose these limits in the end are financial limits as you can always improve things, but it will boil down to at what the cost and if it is profitable doing. We are in a difficult niche market that appeals to a small number of flight sim fans. My kids never have been attracted to these types of games. They played a lot on console games even if they had PCs. They played Assassin's Creed, WOW, GTA, CS, Resident Evil, Car racing sims, etc. To put it short "simple" games where you can immediately play (learning curve to play is 15 seconds), with strong visuals. 

 

[WitchyWoman]

I'd fly it  lot more if it had a career mode like IL-2GB or campaigns like 1946 BAT. The scripted aspect leaves Blitz/Tobruk very limited unless your into the online MP thing. this is probably partly why its less popular.

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

And online there is barely anyone and barely anyone joins because there isn’t anyone.
 

Offline even if you use theOden’s dynamic campaign generator the game can’t track your persona like 1946 or BoS so it’s still sort of mission after mission without any real involvement. There are custom scripts from theOden but it counts kills and sorties in a separate log. More of the many things in CloD that are possible if you want to spend your time doing it. 
 

When the game released I think they ran out of time to really develop the offline side of it. 

And after release it was bug fixing and then with TF it seems to me their focus has always been on multiplayer. Just recently there has been new campaigns but the base still isn’t there.

I’ve posted too many times about why I think CloD can’t get traction. Won’t repeat it here. But: marketing, development pace, stigmas from its initial release, very low accessibility (“it’s CloD” quirks) are for me the main reasons (maybe I am forgetting something…).

 

Numbers for DWT don’t count since no one plays that per se. People play CloD Blitz with the DLC turned on. CloD Blitz are the only accurate ones.

But it’s an average, of course. ATAG has a counter on its forum page and there you can see how many people are actually playing the game at any given time. Highest I’ve seen in a while is mid 40s with some 13 online. There is always a baseline of about 8 players (Australian prime time I’d guess, EU mornings) and usually it hangs at around 30 during the day, peaking at night (EU).

 

@IckyATLAS That’s interesting regarding the visuals. I don’t have that impression. Smoke plumes, craters, formations bombing and taking flak, land battles, ships, convoys they all creates the opposite impression for me. Can you put a finger on the non-immersive environment? The maps is being updated for the visual update, whenever that comes. So I hope at least from that aspect it should be ok in the future (it is looking marvelous with all the scenery, hedgerows, hay stacks, cows, new textures, objects in cities and harbors, far render distance etc.).

 

 

[BOO]

Plus 1 to the above posts. 

 

I believe most like to back a dog in a fight. The missteps of the initial Blitz launch and gestation period of sandCloD allowed BoX to find its feet and people stuck with it because it is the better “game”. 
 

Add to this DCS and it’s offer also. Not just WW2. This product has also had an ascendancy in recent times that will have drawn potential players away. It certainly has with me.  So in that regard both BoX and CloD have lost out.  
 

BoX on the surface at least offers more content, more SP options, a better gui and is generally more easily accessible to casual and new players. 
 

Those that do persist with ColD face limited servers that are empty (self fulfilling prophecy), limited SP options and a small and largely inactive community. All this sitting on a product that , for all its plus points and potential, still feels (and is) unpolished in many areas. 
 

Im not sure how you come back from that  to attract the less ardent. 

 

 

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

And adding to my previous post, I’d like to leave this here.
 

BoS is a very well rounded package and very accessible even to newcomers. It does what it does right and what needs to be done to at least a satisfactory degree.

Why would anyone want to play CloD with all it’s entry barriers (quirks) if you have BoS?
If theater alone were the reason players wouldn’t be doing Hurri II and Spit V vs 109E-7 in the new channel map. Or paint Kuban brown and imitate NA…

 

CloD needs to show people it can do certain things better and the other things just as well. Not the case atm…  players won’t even get to see what CloD can actually do before playing at least a dozen hours.
In the beginning you are banging your head trying to not lose your joystick config, trying to figure out why your game keeps crashing or you can’t hit anything or keep burning your engine. 
And then there are the obvious obsolete things we all talk about (UI now for the most part, since VR and an upgrade in visuals is coming).

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

My teammates had blast flying Tobruk last Saturday, bombing is very satisfying. The visuals are great regarding hits, dust, smoke, water splashes and after effects of good bombing run, where il2GB is weak in that regard . The immersion and lasting effects of destroyed objects are  there where in  BOX after minute or two everything look the same and all hit , destruction effects disappear to early and are to tiny. Plane damaged model is also more advanced, you can damage all kinds of system, mechanical, electrical, pneumatic.

Plane ground handling , take off  in particular feels very unnatural in Clod where in BOX is much better.

[jollyjack]

My main grudge is the scenery and it's looks, and the battle  of getting my controllers again working (,  f**king Steam screwing them up again?).

But the planes, especially the looks are nice. And BTW i don't use VR still; i use the PCs keyboard a lot.

Edited November 7, 2022 by jollyjack

[Lusekofte]

I love clod. But I do not have time at the moment

[Robli]

The game is just kind of old and abandoned.

TFS has done a good job to make the original buggy game playable, but older players have moved on from it already to more fresh sims (BoX and DCS) and potential new players will certainly not pick an 11-year-old game which does not have an active payer base as their go-to game. It was actually quite good game, after TF fixed it and with SoW running an interesting war scenario on it, but with SoW ending at the same time when BoX started to mature and get content, people just moved on from it.

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

Honest question to which I have my own answer (spoiler below), but wanted to know what others think:

 

BoS is from 2014 (with an engine initially as old as CloD’s), so it is 8 years old. 
Why is one sim seen as old (11 years old) and the other is seen as new? Because of DLCs? By that logic CloD would be 2 years old.

 

Spoiler

CloD is old and BoS is new because one unlike the other has been constantly improved and worked on over the years while CloD hasn’t had any significant advances since the first bugs were corrected and the game made playable.

 

[Dagwoodyt]

If you look at the aircraft they still show polygonal outlines of rounded structures. That looks dated. DW-T is a sea of blue and a sea of orange. That map looked so primitive at release some buyers may have felt cheated. I don't think it is possible for a single part-time team to compete with organizations that get content contributions from multiple part-time (?) teams. Sometimes it seems that TFS is in some respects a one-man operation. Continually stating and failing timelines damages credibility. Apparent inability to address GUI eccentricities also makes the future look "uncertain".

[Bloyamind]

Just about the visuals, my only other comparison is DCS, which i'm running on high settings. That map looks more 'modern' I guess, but I slowly fell in love with the very natural/realistic colour palet of CoDB. DCS to me looks... weird. High contrast. And that water in CloD! Looks great. (Even though I miss me some white foam from waves breaking). The map when flying low looks primitive and outdated, but from up high it's immersive as balls. And while dogfighting it's not what you're focussing on.

It's a strange thing, dated does not necessarily mean worse, specifically for me. Dated graphics can still be very immersive. I play Stalker with a huge modpack (Gamma), and the basis is pretty darn old. But that game looks immersive, and to me better than some modern triple A titles. 

 

I have no input on the actual topic question, as i'm pretty new, apart from self-fulfilling prophecy bit.. As a new flightsimmer, you google your options. You want the best/most viable option. And people state that BoX has people, whereas CoD has hardly any players. At that point, it doesn't really matter which is the better experience. Games can be brilliant but dead or dying. I still went for CloD because I could get it for cheap and wanted to try flying WWII birds. Because it felt so darn good, I got Tobruk one or two days later. That definitely speaks for CoD/Tobruk. As for UI, see the topic about UI.

Horrid AI also almost made me drop out, because I was planning on doing SP only. MP often gives me stress in games until i'm proficient. But horrid AI seems par for the course in flight sims, so whatevs. However, the SP, which is where most people would start out is not very newcomer friendly.

[OBT-Lionel]

I believe a lot of players like Bos because it's simple and uncomplicated.

[jollyjack]

simple, or just an easy way out ..

 

[343KKT_Kintaro]

"Complex but right"... sounds like "Cliffs of Dover"... the only PC combat flight sim, for example, that allows you... THANK TO HIS FANTASTIC GAME USER INTERFACE... to player-custom every single round in every belt in your Spitfire's wings.

 

[OBT-Eazy]

2 hours ago, OBT-Lionel said:

I believe a lot of players like Bos because it's simple and uncomplicated.

It's time for me to give a chance to war thunder.  

[jollyjack]

And the winner is?

[Eisenfaustus]

2 hours ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

"Complex but right"... sounds like "Cliffs of Dover"... the only PC combat flight sim, for example, that allows you... THANK TO HIS FANTASTIC GAME USER INTERFACE... to player-custom every single round in every belt in your Spitfire's wings.

 

No it does not - at least not in SP. And seeing that this funktion was planned at some point but still doesn't work is frustrating. And the UI is one of the worst parts about CLOD - by far!

I like CLOD - yet configuring and playing BoX is by far more intuitive and user friendly. And a good combination of QMB, AQMB, Career and Campaigns gives so much opportunities for SP.

[IckyATLAS]

8 hours ago, 9./JG52_J-HAT said:

 That’s interesting regarding the visuals. I don’t have that impression. Smoke plumes, craters, formations bombing and taking flak, land battles, ships, convoys they all creates the opposite impression for me. Can you put a finger on the non-immersive environment? The maps is being updated for the visual update, whenever that comes. So I hope at least from that aspect it should be ok in the future (it is looking marvelous with all the scenery, hedgerows, hay stacks, cows, new textures, objects in cities and harbors, far render distance etc.)

My comment here was mainly for Desert Wings - Tobruk the topic of this thread where and this is only my personal opinion I found it dull. Maybe the desert is dull but I can't explain. I have traveled in African deserts a few times. Colors do not seem right. I mentioned CLOD as this is based on CLOD. But I agree that there is a big difference, and it is my error to not have stated the difference.

The scenery on CLOD and the farm and fields environment and the colors are very well rendered. BoN started to approach that quality.

One strong point of IL2 1946 and the previous iterations was that over the time they created a very large library of objects to make the map livelier. This has been always a weak point of BoX were this has lacked effort. To be honest we had in the end some cows, horses, haystack and infantry. Compared to CLOD the infantry in BoX is animated a big plus (kudos to Han), but he did not go to the end of the exercise. Infantry has multiple poses missing, no single soldier block in two or three poses like in 1946 (would use less resources), lack of various uniforms, why not single cow and horseblock etc. So clearly CLOD is visually more attractive to me than Tobruk, but the past trauma I suppose is still affecting me.

[Dagwoodyt]

3 hours ago, jollyjack said:

simple, or just an easy way out ..

 

forgot complex + wrong ?

Edited November 7, 2022 by Dagwoodyt

[OBT-Eazy]

24 minutes ago, Dagwoodyt said:

forgot complex + wrong ?

No because here it's a binary world!

[343KKT_Kintaro]

The visuals in "Desert Wings - Tobruk" were released in an incomplete stage of development... though perfectly playable: no complaints from my part as I loved the desert map since its release in Summer of 2020. Maybe those not loving the map as it is simply seek perfection in the domain of flight sims and, thus, never will be happy. Same thing with some players in "Great Battles" who are not happy with the Normandy map as it is (and those, again, never will be happy). Regarding the desert map, TFS already explained the how and why of such an incompleteness, and they equally explained that the promised visual improvement will come at release of the so called "visual update" (click here for the last communication on that matter, the latest as far as I know, published on the 27th of October). In fact, if I got it correctly, both maps in the Dover series, Channel and Tobruk, still are under improvement via the so called "visual update". I have no idea when the visual update will be openly implemented in the game. Before Christmas? Before Summer comes? We'll see...

 

It is true, the single player mode presents some handicaps when compared to multiplayer. The game user interface, the ammo management when in single player mode, the lack of a really dynamic career mode, the lack of an easy-to-use quick mission builder... the devs know all of this, but if you go back to the last Team Fusion Note of October the 27th, you'll get what is the real pace of work of TFS and why we have to deal with such a slow pace of advancement.

 

There's plenty of scenery elements in the mission builder but, anyway, the scenery objects are being increased in the default maps, we already had a video showing that. Again: let's wait to the visual update is released and fully implemented in the game... what else can we do?

 

Finally, please pay attention to jollyjack's question "and the winner is?". My reading of this post of Jollyjack is that he knows the answer but he's trying to make us understand that the TFS devs won't work at a faster pace only because we open new threads and we keep opposing each other, CoD fans vs other games fans (Great Battles, DCS or whatever other game).

 

1) "Cliffs of Dover" is one's pain on the neck if one stays in these forums permanently complaining about a status of things that an adult person would have already accepted for ages now.

 

2) "Cliffs of Dover" is the best survey-type PC combat flight simulator ever if one ignores some things and focuses on the best it has to offer.

 

If some keep focusing on the bad things... only, and others keep focusing on the good things... only, what we do obtain is not a forum for talks and debates... but an endless battlefield.

 

As a conclusion, Jollyjack, there will be no winner here in these forums: the game is not finished... TFS is doing its best... and those permanently complainng won't make TFS goes faster. If you don't have anything new to add, if you don't want to apply as a tester, as a developer or as a coder... if you don't want to bring more skins or more missions... if you don't want to create and share screenshots and videos... if you don't want to open threads that are really intended to build something... please move on and leave here those who are really ready to contribute in order to build something. Thank you in advance.

 

 

[Mysticpuma]

My answer to your question is as follows. My opinion only.

 

Lack of progress and missing targets. This was the reply I got to the timeline I guessed at for Tobruk being released.

It actually missed my speculation by a further 12 months.

 

People want new toys and seeing TFS playing with them and not sharing them leads to apathy.

 

What is frustrating is that with the visual update, much further render distance, Truesky and VR, CloD will be back in the realms of the other flightsims mentioned (BoX/DCS) but who will know or care about it?

There is so little information coming out of TFS that the only thing that happens on the forums is a tiny snippet of news is released (very, very sporadically) and then we are once again left in the wilderness. There is no way of building traction and expectation as there is no reliable interaction with the forum readers and so we end up in a continual circle of some saying the update is rubbish and some saying the update is amazing! In fighting then begins, personal insults fly and then Buzzsaw shows up and locks the thread....and we are i limbo again.

 

So, why isn't it more popular?

 

Lack of publicity and lack of community interaction. With nothing to discuss, forums quickly become stagnant and readers find other locations to populate. Forum readers have nothing to share or talk about to show their friends who may be interested. A brief video here or there and a quick bit of text saying  "here's some news, but I can't tell you anything else" really doesn't help. Regular updates allow people to share on other forums, progress of the Visual update and thereby garner interest. One update occasionally, quickly glows brightly like an ember in a smouldering fire and then is quickly extinguished when other sims release much more regular news, and they become the talked about topic. I know, I bang on about publicity, but why do TV programme's have adverts? Imagine a new product being released and not one mention of it is made publicly. How soon will it fail? This is why TFS should be shouting their product from the rooftops as regularly as they can.  Gain that traction, expectation, excitement, community buzz. There is no point releasing the visual update and just saying "there you go".

 

Regarding the community interaction, I think long-term players who have seen the issues that CloD has, have reported them, yet the bugs still remain, unfixed, lingering like a bad smell and then an update occurs to the game which is usually just a few extra missions. This disenfranchises people who are readily helping and yet feel ignored. They walk away. I don't agree they should, but it's the reality of the situation. I'll say it again....how long have mission builders 'suffered' with not being able to get vehicles to cross bridges? This is an essential for mission builders to create moving fronts, yet 'it's CloD!'.

 

Personally, I prefer CloD to BoX. I find the Full Mission Builder very easy to make a functional mission, but I don't have the knowledge to get into scripting, yet this is where CloD excels and really makes it a fantastic tool for creativity, this should be a huge selling point and yet barely any Mission Builders get involved with it (other then TheOden?). Why? I don't know, I really don't.

 

Accessibility is one issue that often frustrates and drives new players away.

 

Why, after all this time is there no Single Player Quick Mission Builder like IL2: 1946? The Quick Missions in CloD are fine but to be able to set up 16 aircraft vs 16 aircraft, scramble, chase, head to head, individually skin each aircraft, set loadout (simply and easily without having to load a multiplayer game), set the map location, weather, time of day, grounds targets, Flak, etc, etc this is a feature that would be much appreciated and add so much more to the offline experience.

 

The visual and pratical damage model in CloD is above and beyond anything out there at the moment. Even now watching a wheel drop from an attacked aircraft due to hydraulic failure blows me away! 

 

 

Clodism's though, these are a frustration.

 

Over and over again, Joystick controls vanish, cameras don't work as they should, views don't work as they should.

 

Other sims have so many more camera options to showcase the beauty of their product, CloD has the bare basics and this is another issue where players cannot be overly creative, thereby making screenshots and videos, sharing them and having more free publicity to attract players. There should be a free camera that can be placed anywhere like BoX, wing tip cameras, cowling cameras, just more variety to make more content shareable and raise the profile!

 

CloD has scale, huge formations, DCS is a stutter fest with large formations, BoX falls apart with large formations, CloD handles them with ease.

 

 

Overall CloD is an amazing product, hamstrung with long-standing bugs that new players just don't have the time to invest in and old players know all about but have long since given up caring about as they never expect to see them fixed and once again we are back to apathy.

 

 

--------------

 

I realise my take will have the usual unpopular opinions but it is MY opinion as to why it isn't more popular.

 

I honestly love CloD, I do genuinely believe it still has the greatest potential but the lack of progress (yes, real lives, not full time) is the ultimate killer of the product. I know they can't help it as they are only part time, yet we also know if this was a product in a professional studio hands the progress, bug fixes and new modules would be likely as far ahead as BoX is now. I think most of us old timers remember how Oleg was working on the Battle of Moscow before the studio was canned, to think what could have been!

 

I still long for CloD to be the product it really could be, but ultimately with a small part time team working on it, the likely hood of us ever seeing 1944 and the CloD engine rendering bomber streams and B-24's and B-17's feels like an impossible dream at this point in time with the near glacial progress since Tobruk was released.

 

Take from my reply what you will. I am still a fanboy, just a frustrated one because it should be obvious to anyone who knows CloD, this really is an Ugly Duckling waiting to become a beautiful Swan.

 

 

 

 

 

[jollyjack]

Agree, why i supported it by buying it ... the duck has now evoluted in to a (desert) goose.

And let's not forget: London is on the map; something IL-2 did not dare even.

[Dagwoodyt]

3 hours ago, jollyjack said:

Agree, why i supported it by buying it ... the duck has now evoluted in to a (desert) goose.

And let's not forget: London is on the map; something IL-2 did not dare even.

When was London not on the map?

[343KKT_Kintaro]

4 minutes ago, Dagwoodyt said:

When was London not on the map?

 

 

By "IL-2", our dear Jollyjack meant "Great Battles"... a common mistake in the present day. Indeed, there are three different "IL-2 Sturmovik" generations of games:

 

1) "IL-2 Sturmovik: 1946"

2) "IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover" (the Dover series)

3) "IL-2 Sturmovik: Great Battles" (the Great Battles series)

 

Thus... Jollywack simply wanted to say that big cities are not modelled in the "Great Battles" series but that they are modelled in the "Dover" series. Examples of that: developers refused to model Moscow in the Great Battles series... but still now Team Fusion Simulations proves that London is doable in the Dover series (both offline and online).

 

Cheers!

 

 

[Enceladus828]

4 hours ago, Mysticpuma said:

Lack of progress and missing targets. This was the reply I got to the timeline I guessed at for Tobruk being released.

It actually missed my speculation by a further 12 months

 

12 months you say, well for IL-2 Great Battles they are behind on adding Drop Tanks by no fewer than 3 years. And it's ridiculous that 5 installments in, you get no warning by your wingmen or crew of bandits, nor can you radio for help if somebody is on your 6, while all of that and Drop Tanks are in CloD.

 

Buzzsaw even stated why DW-T wasn't released in June 2019 here and he said "Yes, we have not finalized our release as quickly as we might have hoped, but not from lack of effort... We have had some stumbles in our generally steady forward progress.  If you want me to apologize for a few words of optimism several months ago... then sure.  If you want me to apologize for a team who is working as hard as they can and who are all doing superb work, then I am sorry, I can't."

 

MP, don't mean to be negative with you here, you seem to indicate that all other dev teams -- 1CGS, ED, Asobo, etc., etc. -- always deliver their products and updates on time and if they're late it's only by a very short time when it's quite the opposite.

Also, why hasn't anyone complained that a science fiction book I'm writing isn't finished yet even though in 2018 I said it would be finished by August 4th 2021 ?

 

But as I said, I wasn't trying to be negative with you. You made a lot a positive statements about CloD afterwards and I really enjoyed your Damage Model video which shows just how great this game is?

 

Cheers

 

[Mysticpuma]

Enceladus, I don't take any offence from your reply. 

I don't think other companies reach their targets faster, I simply stated I was called wildly pessimistic speculating on a reasonable timeline for release which turned out to be wildly optimistic. 

 

But, I stated how I feel even now about CloD and I am glad you acknowledged that, thank you. 

 

My original reply is in answer to the question posed and I stand by my answer as to why it isn't popular. 

[Koziolek]

Really agree with most of the above

I very much try to get back to CLoD every few months. Try ... and fail every time 

And it is not the lack of VR or old 2D clouds and all the visual eye candies they work on now ( but I understand they are important to some )

For me the visual part of the game is good enough to play it ( I agree the Tobruk map could be better, but on the other hand I new flew over it in RL so can't really tell  how bad it really is ?)

 

But as a SP only I cannot live with the shitty AI and the lack of SP campaign 

Oh and don't forget some other bugs where you need to aply  an "easy workaround"

 

Tobruk was something I very much waited for, bought it as soon as it was possible, played a few scripted campagns,  saw corkscrewing aircrafts again and .... went back to GB

I am not saying that CLoD is much worse than GB, the are a lot of things I like in CLoD and a lot of things I do not like in GB but overall the GB package gives me a much more pleasant experience. So why waste time on the worse product?

And not only me as we can see from the number of players of each game ?

 

[354thFG_Leifr]

On 11/7/2022 at 2:10 PM, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

"Complex but right"... sounds like "Cliffs of Dover"... the only PC combat flight sim, for example, that allows you... THANK TO HIS FANTASTIC GAME USER INTERFACE... to player-custom every single round in every belt in your Spitfire's wings.

 

 

A UI so fantastic and superior I used a third-party programme (from the ATAG forums) to better make amendments to the ammunition belts. ?

 

Cliffs of Dover has had it's time in the sun, and it's been a long one. Any one thinking that the VR update, or cloud update, or visual improvement update, is going to bring back full servers again is grossly deluded. I don't believe it's a matter of slow development, poor communications and whatever else is used as an excuse; sometimes games end on life support through a natural lifespan, and there's not a lot that can be done for them to revive.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Leifr

[Dagwoodyt]

Without doubt the Visual Update will improve player stats in the short term. Longer term though Blitz' GUI warts are not going away so the numbers will start to slide downwards again once the "new" wears off. I still have Track IR and use it for Blitz. I don't find Blitz to be a good "game" in 2D so it is unlikely that I will use it often compared to my GB or DCS useage even after the Visual drops. There is no benefit to repeatedly declaring that GB and DCS fail to meet self imposed timelines. Those sims have extensive libraries and updates can come unexpectedly. There are modules and features to occupy players' time until a desired feature drops. I am never going to sweat drop tank implementation for GB and not sure I'd have use for that feature even when available. ?

[zzzxxxxzzz]

I really don't understand it, for me it's much better CloD

[Dagwoodyt]

preening plumage  ?

If you're buying hundreds or thousands of copies of Blitz that will help the team. Inflating ones' own importance won't.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Dagwoodyt

[Mysticpuma]

And.......back on topic? Again!?

[BraveSirRobin]

31 minutes ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

TL/DR/DC

 

 

I was just laughing when I saw you call someone else obsessive compulsive.  Physician, heal thyself.

 

I don’t really care about the long history of your fight against the infidels of Clodworld.

[BOO]

Another perfectly good thread gone to hell in a handcart. 

[343KKT_Kintaro]

1 hour ago, Dagwoodyt said:

preening plumage  ?

If you're buying hundreds or thousands of copies of Blitz that will help the team. Inflating ones' own importance won't.

 

 

Please Dagwoodyt, read this. I can't do any better.

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, BOO said:

Another perfectly good thread gone to hell in a handcart. 

 

 

Please BOO, read this. I can't do any better.

 

 

[Feldgrun]

5 hours ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

but we don't have flyable 4-engine aircraft in [any] of the main modern WWII flight sims (not in DCS, not in Cliffs, not in Great Battles).

 

 

I laugh with a degree of sadness when some joke that this "alien technology" was taken back 20 years ago.

[343KKT_Kintaro]

10 minutes ago, Feldgrun said:

 

I laugh with a degree of sadness when some joke that this "alien technology" was taken back 20 years ago.

 

 

And my post continued stating "Nevertheless... we wait for this... and this..." (  )

 

I don't know if I'll purchase these Microprose games, I'm already busy with the three IL-2s, with RoF, with DCS... that's a lot...