New Pico Neo4 standalone device: Pancake lenses, 2160x2160 per eye and 429€.

[shirazjohn]

14 minutes ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

The Pico 4 comes with spacers in the package you can fit seamlessly in between lenses and glasses. You could try these first. 

Thanks fenris i will try that , just got to get my hands on one first they are out of stock in the uk.

[Youtch]

I understand that there is no way to have the pico 4 Tethered and it must go through wireless connection. Am I correct?

 

The whole point of the configuration above being how to secure good bandwidth connection to make the maximum of what the lenses can support?

[dburne]

24 minutes ago, Youtch said:

I understand that there is no way to have the pico 4 Tethered and it must go through wireless connection. Am I correct?

 

The whole point of the configuration above being how to secure good bandwidth connection to make the maximum of what the lenses can support?

 

This was posted over on the DCS forums. I do not have a Pico 4 and have no idea on this, just thought I would share it here.

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/310136-any-speculation-about-pico-4/?do=findComment&comment=5071366

 

Personally sounds like a lot to have to go through to get it to run connected via a cable, if wireless is as good as is being reported I am sure that would be the easiest and better way to go.

 

 

Quote

Here's something I found

• You can get USB Tethering Enabled on the Pico 4 and use Virtual Desktop wired! This really helped shave a few ms off of latency and really helped reliability. The trick is to get your Pico 4 into USB debugging mode (tapping the software version a few times, then going to Developer in the Pico 4). Then, connect a USB 3.0 cable and run this adb command:
  adb shell am start -n com.android.settings/.TetherSettings && adb shell input keyevent 20 && adb shell input keyevent 20 && adb shell input keyevent KEYCODE_ENTER && sleep 2 && adb shell input keyevent 4
  That will enable USB tethering, which Windows 10 should see a new network is connected. Virtual Desktop will prioritize this connection -- you can even turn off wireless after connecting with Virtual Desktop to save on some battery. I recommend putting that adb command in a .bat file to make it super easy to apply.

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by dburne

[simfan2015]

1 hour ago, dburne said:

You can get USB Tethering Enabled on the Pico 4 and use Virtual Desktop wired!

Thank you dburne, that is a great find !

However, I wonder ... if there is no chance we will mess up the PICO 4 installation by issueing commands like that ???

Can you please also share the link to the website/article where this workaround is to be found ?

You may be referring to this link, but it has no further explanation AFAIK ? ...

https://www.reddit.com/r/virtualreality/comments/ybjpke/pico_4_vs_hp_g2_useful_pico_4_pcvr_tips_and_tricks/

Thanks

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by simfan2015

[firdimigdi]

18 minutes ago, simfan2015 said:

However, I wonder ... if there is no chance we will mess up the PICO 4 installation by issueing commands like that ???

 

It's an Android device so yes, if you aren't careful there is a good chance you can accidentally change something you shouldn't. What that basically does is the same that would happen if you connect an Android phone to your PC with USB and select tethering for it, it acts as a network device allowing you to use its cellular modem or even use it as a WiFi transceiver. It's actually quite a smart idea that fellow came up with, props to him.

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by firdimigdi

[simfan2015]

36 minutes ago, firdimigdi said:

It's actually quite a smart idea that fellow came up with, props to him.

Agreed.

I guess ggodin could implement/integrate this (or similar) hack in his Virtual Desktop software ... if he wanted to do so.

It would surely help those people that do not have a great WiFi 5/6 Router ! 

Edited October 26, 2022 by simfan2015

[AngleOff66]

Silly questions time:

 

Just wondering for those on limited plans. Using the wifi router to send to the Pico uses data from your internet plan? 

 

Do you have to create a Pico account or can you just use Virtual desktop? No interest in sharing my data more than I have to.

 

Off topic: Wonder if VD will work with 1946 ?

[simfan2015]

@AngleOf66. You do need that Pico Account if you want to buy Virtual Desktop.

You also need to identify yourself to use that name when you set up the device.

You do not use the internet (you use your home LAN) unless you want to communicate over the internet with e.g. Virtual Desktop

 (working/playing in a remote location).

If you buy Apps, or stream movies over the internet then of course that will effect the (limited) plans.

I, personally, see no problem with that company knowing our email addresses.

Chinese companies may already know this anyway ?

[simfan2015]

I just tested the PICO 4 Streaming Assistent with PC USB-c 3.2 + high-end 5ft "blue built" Kevlar USB-C cable. 

It worked perfectly, very fluid, although, as expected, visuals were not as great as with Virtual Desktop software.

Advantage of cable is of course that battery life is far better (because PICO 4 is being charged as well).

That "Star Wars : Squadrons" game proved sheer VR perfection with the cable and I experienced no stuttering whatsoever

 even with in-game Ultra settings.

Steam-VR resolution with 100 Mbps and PICO Streaming Assistent HMD resolution was set to  around 2320 x 2320 (whereas with the Virtual Desktop Ultra settings I got +3000).

The takeaway : with USB 3 cable I had no crashes or slowdown/stuttering whatsoever (in Star Wars : Squadrons, IL-2 and other titles I always play in VD !) 

[Youtch]

Just now, simfan2015 said:

I just tested the PICO 4 Streaming Assistent with PC USB-c 3.2 + high-end 5ft "blue built" Kevlar USB-C cable. 

It worked perfectly, very fluid, although, as expected, visuals were not as great as with Virtual Desktop software.

Advantage of cable is of course that battery life is far better (because PICO 4 is being charged as well).

That "Star Wars : Squadrons" game proved sheer VR perfection with the cable and I experienced no stuttering whatsoever

 even with in-game Ultra settings.

Steam-VR resolution with 100 Mbps and PICO Streaming Assistent HMD resolution was set to  around 2320 x 2320 (whereas with the Virtual Desktop Ultra settings I got +3000).

The usb port seems poorly protected. I believe there is a real risk that USB port will not leave long if a sudden movement stretched the cable.

 

I am forced to charge my phone wireless out of defective USB port. when I compare how the cable is secured in G2 compared to Pico 4, it does not bring my confidence very high about the tethered solution.

[simfan2015]

6 minutes ago, Youtch said:

I believe there is a real risk that USB port will not leave long if a sudden movement stretched the cable.

That is a concern for sure !!!

A USB-C port is, also IMHO, NOT really suited for connecting a VR headset with which we tend to turns our head, bow, stretch ...

But I tested this to  report it here and people who have a bad/slow WiFi router can nevertheless benefit from a PICO 4 HMD, but  

 would otherwise be forced to try to return the headset. 

USB cable connection works fine it seems, but there is indeed that risk that we can kill our USB-C / USB-A ports !

Wireless VR headsets are the future, no doubt.

With that dedicated WiFi dongle that PICO (like for the Quest 2) is going to sell next year I see litlle need to buy a tethered HMD unless

 maybe for 8K VR visuals (???).

Edited October 26, 2022 by simfan2015

[AngleOff66]

Thank you Simfan.

 

I worded my question poorly.  My hope was that instead of using the Pico Virtual desktop that it could be replaced with the one by ggodin.

 

I am not interested in the Meta based sets for the same reason.  It is like every company wants your data to monetize or pay a subscription(Hi BMW). I know that an email isnt much in the scheme of things, I just dont like it.

 

The cable connection sounds physically weak.  Not great.

 

I wonder if the Megane X will eventually get a wifi dongle? I could start saving now lol.

 

[FTC_Nerfection]

8 hours ago, Youtch said:

I understand that there is no way to have the pico 4 Tethered and it must go through wireless connection. Am I correct?

In a word; no. It runs tethered via usb-c more or less straight out of the box. The issue is that the image quality tethered isn't a patch on wireless through Virtual Desktop (afaik this is due to the in-built streaming assistant for wired connection being pretty shitty compared to virtual desktop).

 

[simfan2015]

1 hour ago, AngleOff66 said:

The cable connection sounds physically weak.  Not great.

It is possible that if we are to use the cable connection we might, in time, end up with a faulty usb-c pc and/or hmd port. Using a headset connection while gaming is different from it only charging the device!? 

We might not even need a Megan-x... A dedicated wifi dongle may be suited just as well to delivery even better stable pico 4 Visuals. 

Edited October 26, 2022 by simfan2015

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

I'll stick to the router. I cannot imagine a WiFi dongle can handle the stream at the throughput we want for any decent amount of time. It will most likely be throttled, and maybe not work with VD. I wouldn't wait for it. A dedicated TP-Link Archer C6 is cheaper than the planned Dongle anyway.

[chiliwili69]

Well guys, my Pico4 arrived today and today I (and my son) has been testing it a little bit. Not IL-2 yet but some Half-Life Alyx, one of the few VR games I had apart from IL-2.

 

Just few lines about it:

 

- The Pico4 is an amazing headset, even it has not a display port connection

- I never thought that a simple Wifi connection was going to give a image as good as the one I have seen in Alyx, what the hell is doing a H265 compression, amazing. At the level of G2, in fact, last time I played Alyx was when I had the G2 and the Index,( and sold the G2).

- The edge-to-edge clarity is very good, as Fenris said about 80% of the FOV. This is something I was missing from the G2.

- The area where you place the eye in front of the lens to have a focused image is quite large. It doesn´t matter if it is a bit up or down or left or right. I remember that the G2 had a very tinny place where the eye has to be to be focused.

- The weight and its distribution is quite nice and it is quite easy to take it out and put it again.

- Pancake lenses is the way to go for any future device

- FOV (one of my major priorities) is quite close to the Index. I think that with a different foam cushion I could be a little bit closer to the lenses (Here I miss the regulation of the Index to move the lenses closer to the eyes).

- I use Virtual Desktop at Ultra settings and 72Hz and SteamVR at 150% SS.(3348x3348 per eye). This is 22.4 Million pixels in total.

- All pico setup, firmware update and VD setup took me just 30 minutes to go, surpringsingly easy. (but I already had my dedicated TP-Link Archer C-80 fully configured). It is a bit strange all things you have to do (comparing with just the Index) but it run OK.

 

Just some pictures I took with my phone in the monitor while my soon was enjoying again having controllers (I have not controllers with Index):

 

 

Performance with Alyx is just 72fps steady, not bad for that resolution and my humble 3080 card and 5600X CPU.

 

The interesting thing, is the cap that SteamVR do, the same 3240 limit (last detected resolution from fpsVR). So it is not having any effect increasing %SS beyond 140%, which is 3235x3235.

 

 

Overall, I find few reason to keep the Index, but it is still early to decide. I have to test it with IL-2 first.

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by chiliwili69

[Alonzo]

4 hours ago, SCG_Nerfection said:

In a word; no. It runs tethered via usb-c more or less straight out of the box. The issue is that the image quality tethered isn't a patch on wireless through Virtual Desktop (afaik this is due to the in-built streaming assistant for wired connection being pretty shitty compared to virtual desktop).

 

Kinda sounds like a bug that the Pico developers could fix, once they realize. I guess it depends on the bug, if it's just too little bandwidth being used by the cable that's a simple fix, but if they're using a crappy codec and Virtual Desktop is using a better one, that might be more work to fix.

 

Fenris' comments have me considering the wifi option but it just seems weird to rely on wifi when I've used cables for so long.

[simfan2015]

Thank you chilliwilly69 for your PICO 4 assessment and screenshots !

Really appreciated.

 

BTW another expert on Youtube is also completely blown away by the PICO 4 :

He claims PICO4 to be way better than a.o. the Quest 2 in every way ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBresMxmzVQ&ab_channel=ChigzTechReviews

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by simfan2015

[dburne]

22 hours ago, simfan2015 said:

Thank you dburne, that is a great find !

However, I wonder ... if there is no chance we will mess up the PICO 4 installation by issueing commands like that ???

Can you please also share the link to the website/article where this workaround is to be found ?

You may be referring to this link, but it has no further explanation AFAIK ? ...

https://www.reddit.com/r/virtualreality/comments/ybjpke/pico_4_vs_hp_g2_useful_pico_4_pcvr_tips_and_tricks/

Thanks

 

 

Sorry the link I posted is only place I remembered seeing it.  I did post earlier I thought I had read where GGodin was working on incorporating this with Virtual Desktop but can not find where I saw that. Likely somewhere on Discord.

Probably I would say hang tight for a bit and more info may be forthcoming. Just a guess on my part though.

Edited October 27, 2022 by dburne

[simfan2015]

On 10/26/2022 at 12:30 AM, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

on the right hand side "increase video nominal range".

Indeed, I did this.

I also disabled HDR in IL-2 settings.

Turned out the in-cockpit visuals got far too dark.

When I turned on HDR again in IL-2, with also  "increase video nominal range" ON in the VD settings, I got perfect visuals and cockpit lighting was marvelous.

It was as if I looked at into an OLED display ! 

Edited October 27, 2022 by simfan2015

[15[Span.]/JG51Costa]

Hi all gents!
Thanks a lot for your reviews and tips on Pico 4.
Can you plz test this headset with VRNS?
I’m very tempted to sell my  PiMax 8Kx  The only thing that stop me is the large FoV lost.
Thanks in advance.
15(Span.)/JG51Costa

[simfan2015]

Sell your pimax for the pico 4???? 

That fov of pimax is reportedly huge. 

I hope you won't regret it if you are looking into the pico!? 

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

4 hours ago, simfan2015 said:

Indeed, I did this.

I also disabled HDR in IL-2 settings.

Turned out the in-cockpit visuals got far too dark.

When I turned on HDR again in IL-2, with also  "increase video nominal range" ON in the VD settings, I got perfect visuals and cockpit lighting was marvelous.

It was as if I looked at into an OLED display ! 

It's weird, isn't it? "Marvelous" is probably the right term to describe it.

[dburne]

What kind of battery life are you guys getting out of the Pico 4 whilst flight simming  before needing to re-charge?

[chiliwili69]

Well guys, today has been the go for IL-2 with the Pico4.

I have been about 1+2 hours with it.

 

Initially I launched IL-2 with SteamVR SS% at 150% which is 22Million pixels:

 

 

Using 72Hz, VirtualDesktop at ultra, HVEC at 150Mbps, etc. With my Ryzen 5600X and my 3080.

 

Several QMB with 4x4 planes in Stalingrad, Novorosik and Normandy with good amount of clouds and using my Spitfire.

 

I started to get happy about:

 

Resolution: much better than Index, like the G2. No glitches or artifacts.

Edge-to-edge clarity: wonderfull, like the Index, much much better than G2

FOV: Almost than Index, but quite OK. Much better than G2

No glare: Thanks to panckage lenses almost no glare, but this never annoyed me too much.

No cable: I thought that this was not important, but hey, I can move my head all around without that cable!

No basestations to switch on, no relflecting surfaces, less cables but an extra router (50€) and VirtualDesktop(20€).

 

But I started to notice something, and thought, oh no!! all was too good to be true!!

 

I noticed sttuters and some lagging of the image. I put the il-s fps counter and I saw it was aorund 50-60.

So, I thought it was perhaps due to the Wifi or compression or whatever.

I then played with not clouds but the problem was still there.

 

So, I decreased the SS% from 150% (suggested by SteamvR) to 100%, so this is 2734x2734, about 15Millin pixels. For my eyes the quality of images was not affected..

 

And ´tThen, everything was smooth, the lags and sttuters desappear!!

I then used fpsVR to check what was the frametimes. This is 72Hz, so 1000/72=13.88ms, that´s the threshold.

Usually the GPU was around 8 to 11ms with 80% load, and CPU arounf 4-6ms. (But low flight in Le Havre CPU frametimes went to 12-16ms)

 

The thing that wonders me most is the quality of the image for a Wifi decoded an image at 72Hz with 150Mpbs. How the quality that I see can go in just 150Mpbs.

I have been always a bit against wifi, and used and ethernet cable always. The VD was reporting around 40-45 ms total latency. The Encoding (3080 card) was around 2-4ms, the Network around 3-5 ms, the decoding (XR2 chip) around 13-15 ms, and the game around 20-25 ms.

 

So, for this first experience, it has been quite positive, but far from perfect:

 

- Battery: It lasted about 2 hours from full charge. A play of 2 hours is ok, but I had not this problem before. I can play with cable but the connector is not made to play with it. And now I don´t like cables

- Confort: Honestly I prefer the Index (with my mod). It is true that the Pico4 has not weight at front and it is well compensated. But the facial cushion is far from perfect. Too much pressure in the upper side. (I put some pressure in the wheel to have better FOV and attach the headset firmly to my face). Perhaps my head/face is  different from the standard chinese pattern.

- Slack: Even if teh Pico is light and with a large face mask, I notice that the headset is not really firmly set to my head. You notice that when quickly moving the head right and left.

- Sound: The Index already had speakers good enough. The Pico speaker are OK for a casual game, but not for IL-2 and Inmersion. So I will need to start looking for something. Either in-ear or headphones, either cable or BT.

- No regulation for eye-lense distance: I really like that extra degree of freedoom in the Index. I hope VRCover or other will produce other better face mask.

- Lights on: Yes, a small detail, but you have to put some lights on in order to allow the cameras do the tracking.

 

This is a common issue of all headsets fro certain people:

- Individual IPD per eye: My face is a little bit Asymetrical (typical from beauty people ? ), Here Pico could have opted to adjust each eye individually, but not simetrical.

 

 Everything is going in the direction to keep the Pico4 over the Index. But I still need to compare them A-B-A-B...

In any case, I think this is just a transition period. I hope Deckard will be the final winner...

[dburne]

I would think Pico 4 would be a very nice jump resolution and image quality over the older Index now. My Index headset has been boxed up for quite some time now.

Good info to know thanks for posting. 

Edited October 28, 2022 by dburne

[simfan2015]

Chiliwilly69 thank you for your expert opinion and testing! 

[shirazjohn]

7 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

The thing that wonders me most is the quality of the image for a Wifi decoded an image at 72Hz with 150Mpbs. How the quality that I see can go in just 150Mpbs.

Hi Chilli thanks for the review.  Regarding running at 72Hz refresh rate do you see any screen flicker as was with G2 at 60Hz.

Even though the G2 was much smoother at 60Hz i couldn't stand the flicker, it didn't bother some folks though.

[chiliwili69]

23 minutes ago, shirazjohn said:

Regarding running at 72Hz refresh rate do you see any screen flicker

 

I don´t notice any flicker at 72Hz with the Pico4, neither with the Index at 80Hz.

Never tried the G2 at 60Hz.

[Benoitgg]

Thanks for this great review ! I use a Quest 2, so would you definitely recommand the Pico over it ?

[shirazjohn]

10 minutes ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

I don´t notice any flicker at 72Hz with the Pico4, neither with the Index at 80Hz.

Never tried the G2 at 60Hz.

Thanks chilli its as expected, it was was quite noticeable on the G2 but 60Hz is quite low. 

 

I'm really liking the look of this headset for an upgrade over the G2 just the battery consumption may be an issue perhaps someone can do something clever with the charging cable to protect it.

[dburne]

43 minutes ago, shirazjohn said:

Hi Chilli thanks for the review.  Regarding running at 72Hz refresh rate do you see any screen flicker as was with G2 at 60Hz.

Even though the G2 was much smoother at 60Hz i couldn't stand the flicker, it didn't bother some folks though.

 

Just fyi that can be very much dependent on the individual as we saw with Reverb G2. Some did not notice it at 60 Hz and others did.

[simfan2015]

8 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

So, I decreased the SS% from 150% (suggested by SteamvR) to 100%, so this is 2734x2734, about 15Millin pixels. For my eyes the quality of images was not affected..

WOW ! Just this setting ... ULTRA with SS% to 100% made a *HUGE* positive difference !

I thought I had to forget about Virtual Desktop ULTRA setting until I read your feedback.

My system : RTX 3070 OC + 12700K OC + DDR 5 is not the best these days.

Reading that VR is getting every system on its knees made me fear I was going to have a bad experience.

Not so.

Thanks to the expert's advice I harvested in this thread I get between 40 and 65 FPS with VD ULTRA settings AND IL-2 in-game ULTRA settings ... believe this or not ! (BTW I have difficulty to believe this myself :-))

Other sims now the same story ... Elite Dangerous -in space, not on the surface- also 45-65 FPS ULTRA settings.

Project Cars 2 and Star Wars Squadons Game (but SWS can only be played thru PICO streamer, not yet VD) similar.

Long story short ... my PC and the PICO 4 are (almost) a match made in heaven.   

[shirazjohn]

48 minutes ago, dburne said:

 

Just fyi that can be very much dependent on the individual as we saw with Reverb G2. Some did not notice it at 60 Hz and others did.

Hi dburne yeah i remember when people were testing this out , some didn't notice it at all but other's like me it was really obvious (it gave me eyestrain). I think 72Hz should be fine though "i hope".

[dburne]

3 minutes ago, shirazjohn said:

Hi dburne yeah i remember when people were testing this out , some didn't notice it at all but other's like me it was really obvious (it gave me eyestrain). I think 72Hz should be fine though "i hope".

 

Yeah I had no problem with the Rift S at it's 80 Hz, but did trying to run the Reverb G2 at 60 Hz. Personally I wish my Aero had an 80 Hz option.

[firdimigdi]

12 minutes ago, shirazjohn said:

I think 72Hz should be fine though "i hope".

 

The flicker on the G2 is actually the backlight turning off during frames I assume as a measure to reduce LCD ghosting/blurring; I don't think any other headset does this (or if they do they simply got the timing down better). I do however think HP only added the 60Hz mode as an afterthought or to meet some sort of requirement that they have a lower-spec mode. For the record it burns my eyes as well.

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by firdimigdi

[chiliwili69]

One thing I have learnt with the Pico4 and the Wifi of the dedicated router TP-Link Archer C80.

My son has been playing BeatSaber and HL-Alyx in another room of the house, separated by a wall of bricks by the room with the PC were game run and where router is located using 1 meter ethernet cable CAT5e.

Latencies and quality was good.

Just few weeks ago I would put my hand on the fire to assure that it will not work. Wifi tech and codecs are amazing.

You know, 30 years ago I spent a summer grant in Tampere (Finland) working with Digital Signal Processing codecs with the archaic chip TMS320C20. I couldn´t imagine that codecs was going to be so important in our normal life (TV, mobile, internet, VR, ...)

[simfan2015]

That's very interesting information chiliwilly. 

DP cable connection is still the best. 

But I can imagine that if we Connect that a DP port using an advanced lifi kind of wireless device it might even be possible to transmit uncompressed graphics data!? 

Edited October 28, 2022 by simfan2015

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

It's of no importance if you can't tell that the data is compressed anymore. That's the Omega we're having now

 

The face mask issue some face with some light leakage at the temple of thinner heads is solved by the Quest 2 silicone cover from VRCover btw.

[simfan2015]

I am waiting to be able to order a new face mask from VRCover. 

Let's hope they will offer one for the pico 4 !?