Prop feathering does NOT work in Me 410

[tomgor]

It looks to me like something is wrong with prop feathering in Me-410. It does not work at all when I use LCtrl+F, which feathers props in Ju-88, He-111, Bf-110, P-38, Mosquito or A-20 with no issues (with exception of Pe-2 for obvious reasons). Am I doing something wrong?
I guess Me-410 must have been equipped with feathering props - at least I have found this picture of a Me-210 prototype with her left prop feathered - see below. 
So, this must have been a bug or I do something wrong, and it ruins that long awaited and much desired Me-410 fun, at least for me. As a temporary measure I set 100% high prop pitch, to decrease prop rpm and windmilling prop drag, but this is a poor substitute...

 
 

Edited August 9, 2023 by tomgor
additional information and clarification

[tomgor]

@Jade_Monkey wrote on September 12, 2020 (the original comment was removed by Admin together with the duplicate topic in another section of the Forum, so I have no more access to it):

"That key command for feathering is for planes like the A20. For the Messerschmitts, you have to set the pitch to manual and then change the angle with the pitch commands.
I had the same issue a while back."

Many thanks for your response. I took it into consideration during further testing today. Below is what I found. But before, one point to consider - everything below assumes an airworthy engine, one that stopped working only due to ignition OFF and/or lack of or improper fuel/air mixture entering cylinders, and not due to mechanical failure resulting in a seized engine.

 

Prop feathering key command (default: LCtrl+F) works in both versions of Bf 110 and indeed results in higher propeller pitch than maximum achievable with manual prop pitch control only (100%). But there is no reaction to prop feathering key command (default: LCtrl+F) in Me-410 and the maximum achievable value of prop pitch is only 100%.

 

The thing is that, both for Bf 110 and Me-410, the highest propeller pitch (100%) set with manual propeller pitch control ON, is still lower than feathering prop pitch, which in Bf 110 can be set using prop feather command, but not in Me-410. With this 100% high pitch the propeller of the inoperative engine is still turning (approx. 800 rpm in case of Bf 100, and approx. 600 rpm in case of Me-410) resulting in unwanted drag. In real life such drag can be sufficient to make difference between ability to maintain altitude (or even slightly climb) and descent to maintain safe speed (Vyse, and always more than Vmca). It seems to me like this drag is a bit unrealistically low in IL2 simulation. If the propeller is feathered it will stop, no matter what, or turn with such low rpm (like 30 rpm) that is of no significance, drag-wise.

There are physical prop pitch control selectors (kind of rocker switch with one additional - feather - position at the very bottom) in the Bf 110 cockpit. They have the following positions:

• Groeser - decrease prop pitch, resulting in higher rpm - spring loaded,
• Drehzahl - neutral position,
• Kleiner - increase prop pitch, resulting in lower rpm - spring loaded,
• Segelsulg (? not sure if correct - difficult to read) - prop feather positions - this is not spring-loaded, when selected the handle will stay there.

But feather position is missing in the Me 410 cockpit (there are only rocker switches to increase/decrease prop pitch, that are located on the external sides of both throttle lever knobs):

• Groeser - decrease prop pitch, resulting in higher rpm - spring loaded,
• Drehzahl - neutral position,
• Kleiner - increase prop pitch, resulting in lower rpm - spring loaded.

So, is the "IL 2Sturmovik" representation of the Me 410 cockpit true? And the only way to set feathering prop pitch in real Me 410 was to push the rocker switch to increase prop pitch until it reaches maximum, without having separate "immediate-action" prop feathering control? 
If yes, then I don't believe that the present angular value representing 100% high prop pitch in Me-410 is correct. It needs to be set higher, so when the prop pitch is manually set to 100%, the propeller pitch is high enough for the propeller to stop windmilling completely (to reach feather position).

Edited September 14, 2022 by tomgor
additional information and clarification

[tomgor]

From the DB603a Motoren-Handbuch.

So we have made at least this thing clear.

The question remaining is HOW in real life prop was set to feather position. In the IL2 game the design of rocker switches to manually set prop pitch are different in Bf 110 and Me 410. The former has a separate "feather" position at the very bottom (in addition to higher rpm/neutral/lower rpm above), while this control in IL2 Me 410 is missing the feather position. In other words is the "IL 2Sturmovik" representation of the Me 410 cockpit true? And the only way to set feathering prop pitch in real Me 410 was to push the rocker switch to increase prop pitch until it reaches maximum, without having separate "instant-action" prop feathering control?  Is there any Me 410 manual to clarify it?

Edited September 13, 2022 by tomgor

[FeuerFliegen]

On 9/12/2022 at 2:53 PM, tomgor said:

If yes, then I don't believe that the present angular value representing 100% high prop pitch in Me-410 is correct. It needs to be set higher, so when the prop pitch is manually set to 100%, the propeller pitch is high enough for the propeller to stop windmilling completely (to reach feather position).

 

That's how the Bf-109 E-7 is; you can manually increase prop pitch until it's completely feathered into the wind. 

 

I hope this gets sorted out.   I would find it odd if the plane was exactly like this in real life. 

[LukeFF]

47 minutes ago, SCG_FeuerFliegen said:

That's how the Bf-109 E-7 is; you can manually increase prop pitch until it's completely feathered into the wind. 

 

I hope this gets sorted out.   I would find it odd if the plane was exactly like this in real life. 

 

I don't know that there's anything to sort out, given that all the available technical documentation on the Me 410 says nothing about prop feathering.

[tomgor]

On 9/23/2022 at 4:23 PM, SCG_FeuerFliegen said:

 

That's how the Bf-109 E-7 is; you can manually increase prop pitch until it's completely feathered into the wind. 

 

I hope this gets sorted out.   I would find it odd if the plane was exactly like this in real life. 

 
Except for the highest (100%) prop pitch available with manual pitch control in Me 410 is still less than feathered prop pitch, and in case of Me 410 it results in approx. 500 rpm, instead of prop stopped or very slowly turning (like for example 30 rpm). Bf-109, being single engine airplane, is not relevant, as opposed to Bf 110, which has properly modelled feathering.

 

Interesting thing is that in the IL-2 BOS Viewer, when animation of Me 410 is played, one can observe the props to reach feathering pitch, which is impossible to obtain in the game. Only 100% high pitch can be observed in the game, which is available with manual prop pitch control, but this pitch is visibly lower than the feathered prop pitch. It looks to me like the devs forgot the complete the prop feathering job during the Me 410 development...

 

On 9/23/2022 at 5:10 PM, LukeFF said:

 

I don't know that there's anything to sort out, given that all the available technical documentation on the Me 410 says nothing about prop feathering.

I am sure there is, considering the picture above (Me 410 with left prop feathered), as well as the excerpt from the DB603a Motoren-Handbuch (also above), which says that in case of engine failure the propeller needs to be set to feather position.
I am not aware of any Me 410 flight manual/handbook and would love to be able to review it.
 

Edited September 24, 2022 by tomgor

[MAJ_stug41]

Still no word about correcting this in the latest update ?

[Yogiflight]

On 9/12/2022 at 8:53 PM, tomgor said:

the highest propeller pitch (100%) set with manual propeller pitch control ON, is still lower than feathering prop pitch,

The prop pitch of feathered propellers is not above 100%, but below 0%. In the Bf 110 G2 100% prop pitch is 12.00h on the prop pitch clock (the top gauge on the engine nacelles) and 0% is 07.40h. In feathered position the pitch is at 02.15h, so far below the 0% position.

 

On 9/12/2022 at 8:53 PM, tomgor said:

Segelsulg (? not sure if correct - difficult to read)

Segelflug

 

BTW another thing not working for the Me 410 is unarming bombs. The command for arming/unarming bombs is not working.

[FeuerFliegen]

On 7/23/2023 at 6:28 PM, Yogiflight said:

The prop pitch of feathered propellers is not above 100%, but below 0%. In the Bf 110 G2 100% prop pitch is 12.00h on the prop pitch clock (the top gauge on the engine nacelles) and 0% is 07.40h. In feathered position the pitch is at 02.15h, so far below the 0% position.

 

 

Not in my game, or anyone else I've talked to.  A lower % prop pitch is for max RPM/lowest pitch, and high % is for highest pitch/lowest RPM /feathered position.

[Yogiflight]

13 hours ago, SCG_FeuerFliegen said:

A lower % prop pitch is for max RPM/lowest pitch, and high % is for highest pitch/lowest RPM /feathered position.

 Yes, you are right. I mixed it, because in German aircrafts you don't set the pitch, but the RPMs.

[tomgor]

On 7/24/2023 at 12:28 AM, Yogiflight said:

The prop pitch of feathered propellers is not above 100%, but below 0%. In the Bf 110 G2 100% prop pitch is 12.00h on the prop pitch clock (the top gauge on the engine nacelles) and 0% is 07.40h. In feathered position the pitch is at 02.15h, so far below the 0% position.

 

Segelflug

 

Thank you! Which means feathered (prop) in this case, right?

[Yogiflight]

6 hours ago, tomgor said:

Thank you! Which means feathered (prop) in this case, right?

'Segelflug' literally means gliding, so yes, in this context it means feathered prop.

[FTC_Frederf]

The German electric propellers had limit switches to define their normal working range of angles which was narrower than the total range of blade angles possible. The maximum blade angle of the working range might be 40 or 50°. In the working range the pitch remains at current when the adjustment switch is released. Outside of the working range the pitch is driven to return to between the limit switches except if the segelflug input is given.

 

The segelflug switch or lever overrides the coarse limit switch and forces the propeller to increase continuously in pitch to the feather position (~90 degrees). It was impossible for the propeller to be set permanently to some angle otherwise.

 

For example the Bf 110E-2 has a working range of "12:30" to "7:40" and a segelflug position of "2:15". You can set any setting 12:30, 12:29, 12:28,  12:27.... 7:43, 7:42, 7:41, 7:40 that you like manually but positions between the bottom of the working range (7:40) and the segelfug position (2:15) e.g. 6:01, 4:44, and so on are impossible.

 

On the Me 410 the segelfug control or function does not appear to exist at all. You only have the working range of "12:30" (0%) to "7:30" (100%). If segelfug position did exist on this airplane it would correspond to a pitch of about 205%. By manipulating the propeller angle on the ground with a stopped engine you can see that even in the most coarse position possible, it is not feathered. The Me 410 does not have a feathering propeller, at least in IL-2GB.

 

Now just because there exists a DB603a motor which has segelfug doesn't mean the Me 410 has it. The engine was installed in other airplanes which may have different  propeller arrangements. Further the "sailing" position in a manual may simply refer to the maximum coarse position even if a specific segelfug position was not available. But it is very normal for twin-engine airplanes to have feathering propellers and using the specific wording "sailing position" plus the photograph above very much leaves  open the opportunity that there was such a feature.

 

Ultimately one of the best (but not foolproof) solutions is to find the technical data for the specific propeller used on that airplane and see if it has provisions for extreme pitch angles suggesting actual feathering use.