Gun Convergence - missing opportunities

[BOO]

Ive been around Clod since maybe mid 2014. As a forum whore Im aware of the many things in relation to convergence that have been posts and the missions kindy developed by users to assist (likely though a good few Ive missed. 

 

This isnt a complaint but just some ideas to prehaps refine and conbine some stuff already out there to make one the unique and often frustrating features of Clod less of a blind faith excercise and a little more fun.

 

Seems to me that there are 4 main elements within the allied and wing gunned axis aircraft  that could be inproved quite easily to make seting up convergencies less confusing and time consuming in addition to promoting one of the unique feature of the game, an in depth abilty ability to tweak:

 

1) Convergence Distances -  appear to be set to peacetime/early war. Additionall some default values  (for instance in the P40) are not indicated so the user is left to research and hope they read the same thing TFS did.  Ask - alter the defaults to the Air Ministry recommended 250yrd of mid 1940 by default and maybe include the earlier 400yd as a second profile.  This would save a considerable amount of user time getting to the basic A state espeically where it isnt clear which guns are where. 

 

2) Box Convergence v Point Harmonization - similar to point one, there are two general schools of thought - convergence that produceds "box" and harmonisation that concentrates firepower. Clod appears to prefer the latter and assumes we are all crack shots.  Ask - 250yd Box and dot patterns be included into the game's selectable load out profiles. With official game profiles I presume this can also be enforced at server to allow more historic maps and mission to be more....er....historic in addition to giving most users two choices at a popular median setting to better suit their stlye and skill.   A 228/228 would likely serve both without further need to vary.

 

3) Round of choice - historic belt composition v AP and DW - lets face it the majority of on line players went for the latter. Ask. Some variations on a theme as profiles may help players assess if the "experts choice" suits them more than the hisorical composition. Again, having offical profiles may also be server enforcable for better historical balance.

 

4) Visulaisation and additional customisations  (for tweakers and experimenters)

 

a) - @Varrattu has made a mission to test convergencies which is a great visual aid - For me there are a couple of bugs and I cannot  yOU select the aircraft of choice these days but it was a great "confirmer".  Im not a mission maker but I understand its complicated. It would be great if that type of mission could include a larger target to assess Box convergencies also. In addition the game sued to have a great stats feature - I used to see it in the ATAG server until Blitz and SOW had it nailed. In it you could see rounds fired/hits. Having these stats would also help a player assess their loadouts. Finally It would be better still if a manner of levelling the aircraft on the ground as in real life could be incorproated too. Here is Varrattu's mission and thread

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/search/?q=gun convergence&quick=1&type=forums_topic&nodes=104

 

b) Back in the day a user named Dexal produced an exel speadsheet for the then modelled Nitro AP and DW rounds in the hurri and Spit. Its a real work of art and allowed those interested to tickle their convergencies to a fine degree and to their fighting style. It also included visualisations on the effect of the settings at user defined distances on a 109 and was a great educational tool to help understand the theory. Ask. Given the reworking of the values and introduction of new types made by TFS over the years, incoprote a reworked and extended version of  this tool into the game "extras".  I put these docs up on the ATAG downloads section years ago (Downloads/Cliis of Dover/Game Tips). They still exist. I appreciate that TFS may not be able to use the orginials if Dexal is no longer about but the priniples and design are there to be considerd. 

 

As a result of me deleting my local files before I checked they where backed in on a PC rebuild, Ive just spent the best part of a day (24 hours) setting up the allied aircraft to where I think I had them. A lot of this time has been trying to work out what the mystery blank "default" and where certain guns were situated in additional to the tiresome launching in MP to get profiles to stick. I wouldnt think a new player would do the same, picking perhaps one of two aircraft of choice, but making the process more interesting and interactive I think takes one of CloDs less fun aspects and turns it in to a feature. 

 

Thanks for reading. 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2022 by BOO

[OBT-Eazy]

Try this one.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YUD6W7uV6n1jpFj0corpt17ZbGUAwM-l/view?usp=sharing

Menu,4 and choose convergence or poursuite

 

[BOO]

19 minutes ago, OBT-Eazy said:

Try this one.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YUD6W7uV6n1jpFj0corpt17ZbGUAwM-l/view?usp=sharing

Menu,4 and choose convergence or poursuite

 

Thanks @OBT-Eazy - this one allows me to select the plane but there is no manner to create it and launch the mission ("fly" button) unless Im missing sometihng. Tried other single player missons and all works fine

 

My initial point howver isnt to have pepperpotted user created content (which is greatly appreciated) but to have this content put into the game as a coherent set of features and are enjpyable to use as a refinement of other stuff that takes the pain out of getting to first base.. Im sure that there are many very clever people out there who could and would assist TFS with such a thing but it takes TFS to make it happen and it would take TFS data to produce accurate convergence and calculators. 

 

 

[OBT-Eazy]

13 minutes ago, BOO said:

Thanks @OBT-Eazy - this one allows me to select the plane but there is no manner to create it and launch the mission ("fly" button) unless Im missing sometihng. Tried other single player missons and all works fine

 

 

 

This is not a single mission but a mission used in a lobby.
 

[BOO]

5 minutes ago, OBT-Eazy said:

This is not a single mission but a mission used in a lobby.
 

So it needs a server running? 

[OBT-Eazy]

yes but you can do it on your machine.
Do you know how create a lobby?

 

[BOO]

3 minutes ago, OBT-Eazy said:

yes but you can do it on your machine.
Do you know how create a lobby?

 

I dont but I can find out. Thanks Eazy

30 minutes ago, OBT-Eazy said:

yes but you can do it on your machine.
Do you know how create a lobby?

 

 

24 minutes ago, BOO said:

I dont but I can find out. Thanks Eazy

 

Well that was somewhat over confident

 

Eazy - No I dont and neither am can I fnd out (or at least in a manner that finding out produces a result. I looked, I really did, but Im still in the dark! Can you help?

[OBT-Eazy]

I'm at work now.
I'll be back in a couple of hours.

[Dagwoodyt]

With Spitfires thru IIa it is possible to view convergence and loadout in the user file. I do not have a list of ammo codes but the codes do show up as well as onvergence in those files. While it is easier to use the MP server to set up a custom loadout it can be done through the Plane/Options tabs as well. Emphasis on MP to do this does not seem ideal for users not oriented toward MP. Easy way to test a loadout is to use one that has no tracer ammo. If MP is the primary interest the situation will not likely change.

[OBT-Eazy]

Hope I didn't missed a step...

 

Copy the 4 files in folder C:\Users\YOUR-USERNAME\Documents\1C SoftClub\il-2 sturmovik cliffs of dover\missions\Multi\Dogfight

Launch the game

From main menu, select Multiplayer then Lobby

Click <Create>

Give a name for lobby, click <OK>

On next screen, click <Play>

No need to change anything here, just click <OK>

Select the mission convergence.mis (found in missions/Multi/Dogfight) then click <Select>

...The mission is loaded...

Click on <Start battle>

Select the red army

Spawn at AK-2

Select your plane and change your belt composition.

Once done, create your plane.

To spawn target in front at 500m : Menu-4-2

 

Bonus, the gisement and distance are displayed on top of screen.

[BOO]

2 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

With Spitfires thru IIa it is possible to view convergence and loadout in the user file. I do not have a list of ammo codes but the codes do show up as well as onvergence in those files. While it is easier to use the MP server to set up a custom loadout it can be done through the Plane/Options tabs as well. Emphasis on MP to do this does not seem ideal for users not oriented toward MP. Easy way to test a loadout is to use one that has no tracer ammo. If MP is the primary interest the situation will not likely change.

Im aware of and how to use the user.ini. Also the ammo numbers. As I said, been doing it a long time (sorry sounds snotty but Im not being). Id-ing the guns could be a lot easier if the guns had descriptive titles in some cases (some already do - some its obvious - some its far from obvuious) - I get the tracer thing- Ive used it many times but its a workaround for something that need not be. Simply using the the ini file to punch in the numbers of another player or googles air Minstry doc is blind faith though as it doesnt show you exactly what is happening. Matching the H and V gives you a spot convergence but little understanding of the boxing and rise and drop outside of the single defined spot and where different rounds from different guns will be in differing positions at differing ranges. 

 

Whilst is probably doesnt need the rabbit hole I go down, having the options availaible in Clod does allow one to fine tune far beyond other titles. Having profiles would really help new and existing players find what suits them better without individually assessing each gun in turn. 

 

Convergence is a veritable smorgaboard of options not only in terms of the horizontal but also in terms of the vertical. Different ammo and mixed guns/cannon produce different trajectories and their position on the aircraft also changes things. Ranging a 20mm hispano to the same as the .303s on a Vb isnt using the cannon to its fullest potetial, likewise the Tomahwk has both mixed armament and a combination of wing and fuse mounted hardware requiring differing values. In the case of things like the Hispano, its power and punch of its rounds also makes it a good longer range weapon and understanding the rise and drop of the projectile is a key factor in  - loadout tools like Dexals help a player visualise those differences whilst a good convergence mission does the same thin in game to prove the theory. 

44 minutes ago, OBT-Eazy said:

Hope I didn't missed a step...

 

 

Thanks Eazy!  Worked a treat. The non static nature of the mission makes a full assessment of the settings something of a "feel" than  than an assessment of the box at certain ranges but the manner in which you can spawn/kill/repeat along with the nice big range numbers allows more of an ability to test in game than simply chasing AI about who are not specifically wiggling their bottoms in front of you in the hope you'll shoot it off.

 

Thanks for them mission 

Edited September 2, 2022 by BOO

[Dagwoodyt]

A QMB seems the place new players would expect to find options for selecting and saving loadout/convergence preferences.

[BOO]

Just now, Dagwoodyt said:

A QMB seems the place new players would expect to find options for selecting and saving loadout/convergence preferences.

This would certainly make sense. 

[No.54_Reddog]

One of the things I always wanted to do with SoW but could never work out but might be possible now that rearming is an open thing, is restriction of certain ammo types. Ideally I'd want to take it further than just saying yes/no to a specific type of ammo, potentially restricting some of the more potent types to specific players or bases. I could see a fully supply/demand type scenario if only the trucks could navigate roads and bridges and railway crossings reliably... Oh well, eventually perhaps!

[BOO]

2 hours ago, Varrattu said:

 

Hello,

here you find the mission: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/77518-test-ammunition-loadouts-in-singleplayer/#comment-1172049

The sample mission runs with a Bf109 but can be used with any other aircraft. If you change the airplane target position may require correction.

 

~V~

 

Thanks @Varrattu

 

One thing Im finding is that I have to spawn in the 109 initially then exit - once done, I can select the aircraft of choice. This mission is a grreat visualiser not only of the settings chosen but the point of impact at various distances which the target repositioning really helps.  Loading a lot of DW or other "signalling" ammo also helps one see the grouping and understand whats happening. 

 

Both this and the mission posted by @OBT-Eazy should be included in the stock game as should the 250 yrd convergence that was used at the time.. 

 

As it stands both missions combined provide a strong case for a straight forward 228/228 Metre (250yrd) 8 gun solution for me. This seems to give an effective shot on target between 150 and 250 M and ties in with the 1940 Air Ministry findings at least in the horizonatal.

 

With the stronger Hispanos I was tempted to throw them out longer but have again settled for a 228/228 convergence on the Vb at least. A longer 400/400 or 400/600 throw on the hurri IIc and Beaus makes more sense for GA and bomber hunting whilst Tomakawk's mixed weapons seem to suit a 400/400 in the nose and a 228/228 in the wings for the 150-250M range. The D520 seems to prefer everything at 150M.   

 

[Dagwoodyt]

In stock QM's after choosing an airplane to fly I can then go to a screen showing an image of my AC. That screen would be more useful if it could be used to select previously saved custom loadouts/convergence or at least identify what loadout/convergence settings are active. 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Dagwoodyt

[Mysticpuma]

Unless I am missing something, is it really this complicated to change the loadout in Single Player? If it is, then I really hope TFS look at Singe Player content more closely and make it easier to just change a loadout without going through such a palava!

[BOO]

4 minutes ago, Mysticpuma said:

Unless I am missing something, is it really this complicated to change the loadout in Single Player? If it is, then I really hope TFS look at Singe Player content more closely and make it easier to just change a loadout without going through such a palava!

Its not very intuative - If TFS made the AM 1940 convergence recommendation of 250yd default it would save a lot of trouble for new and single players as it would be the default I think, at least for 8 guns.  

 

For Single players I would imagine having a historically accurate loadout trumps online uber belts, as such if the 250 yrd convergence was standard there would be little need to faff. For MPs wanting to test loadouts, those with experience wouldnt find the curent too much of a faff however newcomers may find it confusing at first. The other PITA about using a server to make stuff stick is that, where numbers are low, a player spawing in and out can be frustrating to others looking for a fight. I always tried to find a server with no other players. This would be much better if "Apply" set the loadout without the need to spawn. 

[Buzzsaw]

On 9/3/2022 at 2:56 AM, BOO said:

Its not very intuative - If TFS made the AM 1940 convergence recommendation of 250yd default it would save a lot of trouble for new and single players as it would be the default I think, at least for 8 guns.  

 

For Single players I would imagine having a historically accurate loadout trumps online uber belts, as such if the 250 yrd convergence was standard there would be little need to faff. For MPs wanting to test loadouts, those with experience wouldnt find the curent too much of a faff however newcomers may find it confusing at first. The other PITA about using a server to make stuff stick is that, where numbers are low, a player spawing in and out can be frustrating to others looking for a fight. I always tried to find a server with no other players. This would be much better if "Apply" set the loadout without the need to spawn. 

The RAF recommended 400 yards as the convergence for Hurricanes and Spitfires until after the close of the BoB.

 

Some Squadrons, such as No. 74 recommended less, on the basis of their individual experience and many other individual pilots also changed their convergence distances but there was no official recommendation until after the BoB was over.

[JV69badatflyski]

2 hours ago, Varrattu said:

 

If it were possible adjusting German on-board weapons in flight I like calling it 'arcade'.

 

 

And you know on what airplanes (whatever nation) the convergence could be changed in flight?

[BOO]

18 hours ago, Buzzsaw said:

The RAF recommended 400 yards as the convergence for Hurricanes and Spitfires until after the close of the BoB.

 

Some Squadrons, such as No. 74 recommended less, on the basis of their individual experience and many other individual pilots also changed their convergence distances but there was no official recommendation until after the BoB was over.

My point wasnt that one should be prefered over the other but that both should be availaible as default loadouts to cover both the points made about indivudual squadrons and pilots and also the period past the BoB. I imagine MKI and MkII hung around for bit after the BoB given the V wasnt introduced into the mainstream until early 1941

 

Currently in game we already have E7s, F1s, F2s, f4s and Vbs extending the timeframe well past the BoB. Even if the default sticks to the 400 yrds for the early SP campaigns, creating a 250 yrd convergence for this later 1940 period and having that as a second, optional weapons loadout would possibly help players, mission makers and perhaps server admins more quickly restrict or enforce access to the late/or early specifications as a "set" option (or choice of 2 the options if they could both be selectable game "standards"should that suit). 

 

Servers like SoW could then better enforce loadouts to a standard (yup I know every squad will feel it deserves "ace" treatment but its a nonsense if historical accuracy is desired) whilst more relaxed servers could keep the anything goes approach. As its stands, for SP or MP clients not wishing to tinker its hobsons choice and for those MPs that do tinker, a free for all irrespective of the nature of the server flown on. 

 

Im not sure I fully understand @Varrattu's post and perhps that he has understood mine. No-one is proposing the ability to change settings  "in flight". Varrattu's point that there were standards and few had any choice in the matter is valid. A more historical server would/should be able to enforce those directives and the game could perhaps help that. SPs could also be "the special one" with an easily selectable shorter convergence in their own private play whilst the abilty to tinker remains available for everything outside of this. 

 

Of course this is if the game would even support such especially in SP. 

[No.54_Reddog]

I find it odd that we use historical accuracy as a reason not to do a thing, but ignore historical accuracy at whim else where for another thing.

 

At the end of the day, there have probably been more convergence questions for SP asked over the past 5 years than any other topic. That leads me to think that there may well be some user experience improvements that could be made.

[Sokol1]

22 hours ago, Buzzsaw said:

The RAF recommended 400 yards as the convergence for Hurricanes and Spitfires until after the close of the BoB.

 

But the default convergence for British fighters in the game is not this 400 yards, is 338.3281 meters, what is 370 yards - 7.5% off. So the "historic" argument is too off.  

 

On 9/3/2022 at 6:35 AM, Mysticpuma said:

Unless I am missing something, is it really this complicated to change the loadout in Single Player? 

 

First, "Single Player" means Single Missions and Quick Missions. 

 

For Single missions it's just... impossible.

For Single Player missions the only thing that player can change - in game GUI; is convergence, vertical and horizontal.

Ammo belts, bombs, fuel is locked. 

 

For Quick Missions you might be able to change ammo belts, bombs, fuel (50 to 100%, bellow is not available), if before go to the Quick Mission, go to Options>Plane and change there, saving the new set with custom name and Quick Mission selector choose the name of the custom set.

 

But for some planes - eg. an Spitfire variation, sometimes fail, the name of customization don't appear under the plane. It's just PITA, and even this is not available for Single Missions.

 

Example:

 

Spoiler

In Options > Plane I select Hurricane I (Rotol 100oct) and change a belt - adding a Burgundy tracer, and "Save as" Burgundy, hit Apply and again Apply.

 

 

In Single Mission select "A busy morning" mission, click in Custom, select Hurricane I (Rotol 100oct) - pre-set in the mission, but under the plane have only the options: Empty (Stock), Default (Stock).

 

 

When close the mission, go back to Options > Plane, the "Burgundy" loadout is selected there.

 

 

Time consuming and frustrating.?

 

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Sokol1

[No.54_Reddog]

1 hour ago, Sokol1 said:

Time consuming and frustrating

 

You say that like it's a bad thing ? Isn't that what we all crave? haha

[Dagwoodyt]

So what I see as a longstanding "issue" isn't a real issue. 338.3281 meters forever! Good to know?

Edited September 6, 2022 by Dagwoodyt

[BOO]

Just now, Dagwoodyt said:

So what I see as a longstanding "issue" isn't a real "issue". 338.3281 meters forever! Good to know?

No. Simply put. That  convergence is accurate for the game as it stood up to Tobruk but now it encompasses later  1940 and early 41 the later convergencies are as relevant as the originals so should be included as an option. 

[Dagwoodyt]

1 hour ago, BOO said:

No. Simply put. That  convergence is accurate for the game as it stood up to Tobruk but now it encompasses later  1940 and early 41 the later convergencies are as relevant as the originals so should be included as an option. 

Simply put: you cannot force engagement on this or any other topic.

BTW anyone absent from this meeting? ?

Edited September 6, 2022 by Dagwoodyt

[BOO]

16 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

Simply put: you cannot force engagement on this or any other topic.

BTW anyone absent from this meeting? ?

The intention wasnt to force engegment but merely to suggest some changes and to set out an argument for why. 

[Dagwoodyt]

1 hour ago, BOO said:

The intention wasnt to force engegment but merely to suggest some changes and to set out an argument for why. 

The choir is in full support  ?

[wpendle]

On 9/5/2022 at 10:32 PM, Buzzsaw said:

The RAF recommended 400 yards as the convergence for Hurricanes and Spitfires until after the close of the BoB.

 

Some Squadrons, such as No. 74 recommended less, on the basis of their individual experience and many other individual pilots also changed their convergence distances but there was no official recommendation until after the BoB was over.

 

This leads me to wonder how the Germans with both cannon and small calibre weapons used to range their guns. If I'm not mistaken, the early BF109/110 gun sights didn't have adjustable ranges on their sights. 

[jcole]

I would like to be able to change ammo load out, bomb load, convergence, and fuel load in SP and QM - historical accuracy not withstanding. In SP or QM , I’m playing against the computer, not another player. I can duel a Bf-109E1 with my canon armed Spit Vb now - that’s not very historically accurate on the whole. Flexibility in SP and QM mode can only add to the enjoyment of the sim. My opinion…….

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

On 9/2/2022 at 4:20 PM, OBT-Eazy said:

Select the red army

Hi. Just want to try this but I can't see the army choose button. I do see it when connecting to public servers. Do you know what might be wrong? 

 

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

3 hours ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

Hi. Just want to try this but I can't see the army choose button. I do see it when connecting to public servers. Do you know what might be wrong? 

 

Try the realism settings for your server. Allow for changing sides, select or switch. Something to that effect. There are a few checkboxes that affect servers like this. 

Edited December 7, 2023 by 9./JG52_J-HAT

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

1 hour ago, 9./JG52_J-HAT said:

Try the realism settings for your server. Allow for changing sides, select or switch. Something to that effect. There are a few checkbox thst affect servers like this. 

Thanks a million, got it!