Do some radio commands just not really work lately?

[RyanR]

I feel like this is a new phenomenon in BoBP: the commands for "attack nearest air target" and "cover me" seem to do nothing for for the friendly AI under your command. You run into some enemies on the way home that aren't "official" targets.... and your squadron just watches you from above. I've noticed this in both Spitfires and P-51D careers. You go in thinking it'll be 8 vs. 8, but it winds up being 8 vs you with 7 spectators.

 

Has anyone else noticed this?

 

-Ryan

 

 

 

 

 

 

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

Some?

 

Lately?

[spreckair]

Yes I have.

[JG27_Steini]

5 hours ago, RyanR said:

I feel like this is a new phenomenon in BoBP: the commands for "attack nearest air target" and "cover me" seem to do nothing for for the friendly AI under your command. You run into some enemies on the way home that aren't "official" targets.... and your squadron just watches you from above. I've noticed this in both Spitfires and P-51D careers. You go in thinking it'll be 8 vs. 8, but it winds up being 8 vs you with 7 spectators.

 

Has anyone else noticed this?

 

-Ryan

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately it has never been working as intended. In some circumstances some command's will work but most often AI follows the mission plan until enemy shows up. Then, you will never know what will happen. It is very frustrating, especially when you were familiar with older sims where this function was pretty much working. What you might do is to write an bug report. Pretty sure the devs will ignore it, we are arguing for almost a decade. 

Edited August 29, 2022 by JG27_Steini

[Russkly]

I had a case of this yesterday in a late-1944 Bf 109 PWCG career over the Rheinland: my flight, of which I was the leader, was returning from a ground attack mission, and we encountered a flight of A20s.

 

I turned to engage but the flight didn't follow me, so I used every command I could think of to get them to engage, but they steadfastly refused to do so.

 

By the end I was literally screaming at them (I use Voiceattack, as I fly VR) to "Cover me", "Attack nearest air target", "Do like me", "Patrol for air targets", etc.

 

All to no avail, even though the commands were acknowledged by radio.

 

To be fair, the commands usually seem to work OK in my experience, but it's a bit of a shame when this doesn't happen, because it's a killer for the SP experience.

[Elem]

8 hours ago, RyanR said:

I feel like this is a new phenomenon in BoBP: the commands for "attack nearest air target" and "cover me" seem to do nothing for for the friendly AI under your command. You run into some enemies on the way home that aren't "official" targets.... and your squadron just watches you from above. I've noticed this in both Spitfires and P-51D careers. You go in thinking it'll be 8 vs. 8, but it winds up being 8 vs you with 7 spectators.

 

Has anyone else noticed this?

 

-Ryan

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry to say I have.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

3 hours ago, JG27_Steini said:

What you might do is to write an bug report. Pretty sure the devs will ignore it, we are arguing for almost a decade. 

I'm pretty sure the Devs are well aware of the problems. So far, their track record shows that they generally solve ongoing issues at some point. E.g. 50cal, several Flight Model adjustments, individual AI and the announced Damage Model update. However, they've got a busy schedule and they almost never give a timetable for when they plan to do something. I'm positive the Devs won't ignore this and will eventually solve the issue, but depending on what else they've got to do, it may take a while.

 

1 hour ago, Russkly said:

I had a case of this yesterday in a late-1944 Bf 109 PWCG career over the Rheinland: my flight, of which I was the leader, was returning from a ground attack mission, and we encountered a flight of A20s.

 

I turned to engage but the flight didn't follow me, so I used every command I could think of to get them to engage, but they steadfastly refused to do so.

 

By the end I was literally screaming at them (I use Voiceattack, as I fly VR) to "Cover me", "Attack nearest air target", "Do like me", "Patrol for air targets", etc.

 

All to no avail, even though the commands were acknowledged by radio.

 

To be fair, the commands usually seem to work OK in my experience, but it's a bit of a shame when this doesn't happen, because it's a killer for the SP experience.

To me, this sounds like the 109s may have had a High Priority waypoint. Which is basically the mission's way of saying "ignore everything and fly straight to the next waypoint". @PatrickAWlson might be able to confirm, and might be able to come up with a solution if this is indeed the problem (from a mission scripting point of view, there's several solutions possible).

[Russkly]

5 minutes ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

I'm pretty sure the Devs are well aware of the problems. So far, their track record shows that they generally solve ongoing issues at some point. E.g. 50cal, several Flight Model adjustments, individual AI and the announced Damage Model update. However, they've got a busy schedule and they almost never give a timetable for when they plan to do something. I'm positive the Devs won't ignore this and will eventually solve the issue, but depending on what else they've got to do, it may take a while.

 

To me, this sounds like the 109s may have had a High Priority waypoint. Which is basically the mission's way of saying "ignore everything and fly straight to the next waypoint". @PatrickAWlson might be able to confirm, and might be able to come up with a solution if this is indeed the problem (from a mission scripting point of view, there's several solutions possible).

 

Good shout, Aethelraed.

 

They did circle above me though, so they weren't blindly proceeding to the next waypoint. They just wouldn't engage.

 

Hasn't happened much to be fair.

[Thales]

I agree that orders for AI wingmen are quite limited at the time, but some of the problems are also due to misunderstandings about the actual game mechanics of those orders.

 

For example, "Cover me" actually tells your wingmen to stop what they're doing and rejoin your formation, "Form up on me" would be a more fitting description. This order will be ignored when under attack by enemy fighters.

 

"Patrol for air targets" seems to tell your wingmen to only attack aircraft within 3 km of your current position. If you give this order while your wingmen are already moving towards enemy aircraft that are still farther than 3 km, they will actually hold their attack.

 

In any case, giving too many orders is extremely counterproductive, even when repeating the same order. The thought process of your wingmen, like choosing which aircraft of a formation to attack, seems to be restarted with each command, and they will end up effectively doing nothing.

[Sandinourcoffee6]

Keep formation until close to enemy then order attack if leader.

usual get to under 500 meters then order attack,they should engage but I do not play campaign mode much.

Also if enemy or friendly fighters are set to low priority they should be more aggressive.

I think if planes set to high priority they will just perform their main objective ( which is more in line with attack aircraft or bombers )

escourt fighters should stay tight to the planes they are escorting,but will engage if you get close.

The bombers or attack aircraft should attack their target and fly back to base,if you give them multiple ordnance they tend to linger over target and get shot down by AA or if windy conditions they also seem to stay too long over target.

These are just observations I have made,I no expert on the ME.

It would be nice to have the option of a escourt that flys at higher altitude also or lone wolf fighters that just fly looking for prey,as all these things can be done by expert mission makers but maybe the campaign missions need more work by the devs I do not know

But I do think the radio commands and how they work do need an overhaul.

The actual AI is good but it’s maybe more a mission logic thing that makes them seem dumb

Fighter squadron on patrol will look for bandits,ie even from 5 miles away if they spot their prey they will gain advantage use tactics and attack,but escourt fighters should stay close but will be at a disadvantage.

But as leader of flight you should be able to do this,but AI do not have the ability to tell you if they see enemy from too far away,I may be wrong on this but it seems that way to me

So I would say keep your flight in formation gain height advantage wait till you get close then order attack

Once you are close the enemy AI should become aggressive

I think the problem was if planes ( fighters ) set to low priority,they once they set their sights on you they would follow you all the way back to your home base.

 

once the AI run out of ammo or have damage or low on fuel they should fly back to base or nearest friendly airfield.

The ability for AI to think like humans is quite a way into the future I think ? 

[PatrickAWlson]

4 hours ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

I'm pretty sure the Devs are well aware of the problems. So far, their track record shows that they generally solve ongoing issues at some point. E.g. 50cal, several Flight Model adjustments, individual AI and the announced Damage Model update. However, they've got a busy schedule and they almost never give a timetable for when they plan to do something. I'm positive the Devs won't ignore this and will eventually solve the issue, but depending on what else they've got to do, it may take a while.

 

To me, this sounds like the 109s may have had a High Priority waypoint. Which is basically the mission's way of saying "ignore everything and fly straight to the next waypoint". @PatrickAWlson might be able to confirm, and might be able to come up with a solution if this is indeed the problem (from a mission scripting point of view, there's several solutions possible).

 

I almost never use high priority.  The only flight waypoint that is ever high priority is the takeoff WP.  That is a WP about 2-3 km off the end of the runway.  There are no others that impact airplanes.  The only other high priority waypoint it winching down a balloon. 

 

 

In the case mentioned it was stated that the flight was returning from a ground attack.  That would be a medium priority WP.

 

The waypoint is only linked to the flight lead.  I would presume that the WP priority would only impact the flight lead and not the rest of the flight.  The rest of the flight would, presumably follow the leader.  Maybe I'm wrong in that assumption.  If the other flight members were influenced, a medium priority WP means engage only as needed.  They might have decided that engaging was not needed.  As stated, I would find this odd.  Following the flight lead would make more sense.  This is all internal to the game code so I really have no idea what it is doing.

[spreckair]

I think the AI has concluded that we are a horrible group of flight leaders and are refusing to follow our orders whenever we ask them to sacrifice their lives on our precious behalf.

[RyanR]

Lots of really good points and info. Thanks, All!

 

I was admittedly a bit frustrated when I initially posted. After reading your posts, I don't think the AI is broke where I thought it was broke. When you engage the enemy planes that you're "supposed" to be engaging, the friendly AI actually responds quite well. Exactly as you tell them.

 

It's when you go after bad guys that aren't specifically in the mission that you run into trouble. These are the guys you find using external view.... and figure out where they are based on the sun and where they're headed.

 

As mentioned, the priorities seem to be there for a reason. That makes total sense. That's kinda what makes the game work in a lot of ways.

 

-Ryan

 

 

[AEthelraedUnraed]

16 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

I almost never use high priority.  The only flight waypoint that is ever high priority is the takeoff WP.  That is a WP about 2-3 km off the end of the runway.  There are no others that impact airplanes.  The only other high priority waypoint it winching down a balloon. 

 

 

In the case mentioned it was stated that the flight was returning from a ground attack.  That would be a medium priority WP.

 

The waypoint is only linked to the flight lead.  I would presume that the WP priority would only impact the flight lead and not the rest of the flight.  The rest of the flight would, presumably follow the leader.  Maybe I'm wrong in that assumption.  If the other flight members were influenced, a medium priority WP means engage only as needed.  They might have decided that engaging was not needed.  As stated, I would find this odd.  Following the flight lead would make more sense.  This is all internal to the game code so I really have no idea what it is doing.

High waypoint priority can't be the problem then. Indeed, the priorities roughly mean the following:

Low: engage all enemies encountered.

Medium: engage if engaged yourself.

High: avoid at all costs; evade if necessary but don't return fire.

 

If they were at Medium priority, I guess it's possible that the following occurred:

1. The player engages the enemy. Both the player and enemy flights are at Medium priority.

2. Since the enemy flight is at Medium, they return fire to the attacker (=the player).

3. The player flight isn't attacked, so being at Medium, they try to stay away from the action.

4. Since the player flight doesn't attack the enemy but stays on the sidelines, the enemy doesn't attack the player flight.

5. Go to 3.

 

It's indeed odd behaviour and I agree that following the flight leader would be the desired course of action here (in the absence of working radio commands that enable you to order whatever you want your flight to do). On the other hand, the player chooses to "disobey" the standing order (=Medium Priority) to only engage enemies if engaged himself.

 

As I believe Gambit once said, it's much easier to write missions with the player as a wingman, because the AI actually pretty reliably does what it's told to do by the mission scripting. With the player as flight leader, you need to basically take into account all possible actions the player might do, and for each possibility add mission scripting to tell the AI to do whatever you think the player wants the AI to do. Either a more sophisticated radio system or a player that can actually follow orders would be the two ways to solve this problem, and I don't think we'll ever see the latter.

Edited August 30, 2022 by AEthelraedUnraed