SPAD XII-Canon Collector Plane

[No.23_Starling]

Hi all, I've found another two aces who were issued a XII-Canon. David Mechin notes that the French records show Francois Bettesi receiving his in September 1918 which he likely used to make his 7th kill on 29 October north of Laon.

 

The more interesting one however is Maurice Boyau, ace and international rugby player, who scored 3x kills in his XII-Canon including a DVa, DVII, and balloon. In his diary entry for the 29th May 1918 he writes of shooting down a DVa before going for the observation blimp. He writes: "Then I went to the sausages. Oddly enough that I did not explain myself yet, I did not put my target into flames, but I cut it in two as with a knife. One piece fell to the left, the other to the right and the nacelle did not seems to know which one to follow." Translation: David Mechin, The WW1 French Aces Encyclopedia.

 

It sounds like the 37mm shell just blew it apart. Brutal. I can't find a photo of Boyau with his XII-Canon, but there's an interesting one of him next to his XIII which has rockets mounted on mid-wing struts. That's not an option we ever had in Rise of Flight or Flying Circus:

 

I'm sure I'm going to find many more examples of aces who were issued the XII-Canon as I'm only halfway through David Mechin's book series. I believe there were around 182 French aces. If only a quarter of those were serving aces with an SPA escadrille in early 1918 that's still 40-50 airframes, plus those issued to allies like Britain and the US.

Edited September 11, 2023 by US103_Rummell

[No.23_Starling]

Two more French aces noted as having XII kills: Xavier de Sevin’s kills on 15th and 16th May 1918 with SPA 26 where he was commanding officer, and Armand de Turenne’s kill on the 13th June 1918 on a Pfalz Diiia with SPA 12.

 

It seems de Turenne preferred the more nimble SPAD VII and scored a kill on a Fokker DVII two days later not returning to the Canon. This is a theme with many of the French aces who used it with some success when they were issued with the type in spring 1918, but found the XIII with its two MGs to be more than up to the job without the drawback of the XII’s setup. Fonck is an exception who scored Canon kills well into August until he was issued with his XVII, used for several late victories. We know the XII received the high compression 220hp upgrade alongside the XIIIs.

 

I would also add that the kill records as reproduced by David Mechin often just say “SPAD” or no plane type noted at all. We only know if a kill or sortie was with an airframe if the record survives.
 

I can’t find a photo of SPAD Canon no.456 flown by de Turenne so here’s a photo of him with a kill:

Edited September 15, 2023 by US103_Rummell

[No.23_Starling]

All, with the little data we have I've tried to create a scoreboard for the top XII-Canon aces. The main challenge in compiling this is that the records as reproduced in David Mechin's WW1 French Aces Encyclopedia series do not always give the type flown when the kill was claimed. Usually we just have "SPAD" or no type at all, and in some cases we have the type recorded for one sortie on a day but not for additional flights. For example, we know that SPA 75 received a XII-Canon in mid-1918 to be flown by their top ace (Herrison), however his last two kills in September 1918 are recorded with type "SPAD".

 

Given that Escadrilles were named SPA or N to indicate whether the type was a SPAD or Nieuport we can normally assume the type was either a SPAD VII or XIII, and will only know if it was a XII if recorded specifically, such as with Guynemer where we have the type and airframe number S.382. Note that other aces have serials into the mid 400s - I'm not sure if that indicates at least 70+ built?

 

I'd be interested to know if any German aces scored 5+ kills in either the Fokker DVIII or SSIV before November 1918 - we have those in game.

 

 

 

As a final note (for now!) Manuel Lage tells us in Hispano Suiza in Aeronautics that designer Birkigt was planning more moteur-canon designs including one for the 300hp engine fitted to the SPAD XVII, used by Fonck and others for their last few kills of the conflict (see below). He considered the concept alive and was proven right by history. It's possible, had the conflict continued, that more SPAD-Canon could have entered service.

 

S all.

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by US103_Rummell

[No.23_TaxDollarsAtWork]

This plane is ideal fit for the next Collector plane
It could bundle well with FC2

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

1 hour ago, =IRFC=TaxDollars said:

This plane is ideal fit for the next Collector plane
It could bundle well with FC2

I think not. In this game is to easy to aim and become a sharp shooter/sniper.

It would be to op. Better remove a 20 mm Becker gun from the game which was not used bedside testing, rather than giving actually operational 37mm cannon.

The game to be consistent need to have more early two-seaters for both sides  and later engine variants to existing planes plus different propellers design for climb or acceleration.

Edited September 18, 2023 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[No.23_Starling]

5 hours ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

I think not. In this game is to easy to aim and become a sharp shooter/sniper.

It would be to op. Better remove a 20 mm Becker gun from the game which was not used bedside testing, rather than giving actually operational 37mm cannon.

The game to be consistent need to have more early two-seaters for both sides  and later engine variants to existing planes plus different propellers design for climb or acceleration.

Rise of Flight had the forward firing DII Bekker which presumably will be available in FC3 and that’s an auto cannon. There’s also the single player aspect where ppl may want to become an ace for the French and earn their Canon. Agreed on all the other missing stuff above too.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

55 minutes ago, US103_Rummell said:

Rise of Flight had the forward firing DII Bekker which presumably will be available in FC3 and that’s an auto cannon. There’s also the single player aspect where ppl may want to become an ace for the French and earn their Canon. Agreed on all the other missing stuff above too.

My thoughts were about competitive multiplayer. I would love to have more but , this weapon is one shot kill and I presume, because of low speeds manuvers it would be op. 

[No.23_Starling]

5 hours ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

My thoughts were about competitive multiplayer. I would love to have more but , this weapon is one shot kill and I presume, because of low speeds manuvers it would be op. 

That’s fair enough, but don’t forget about the DII. It was in RoF and often used in multiplayer- that’s an auto canon so arguably more dangerous. The Puteaux is a single shot that fills the cockpit with smoke then hand loaded. Unlike the DII which only had a Bekker for testing, this was a production standard. Take your point though; that’s one for admins and map creators to balance. S!

[ZachariasX]

26 minutes ago, US103_Rummell said:

The Puteaux is a single shot that fills the cockpit with smoke then hand loaded.

It would be important that the inconvenience of reloading it would be reflected, effectively making it a single shooting gun, requiring a disengage from combat to reload. Then on the other hand, we can easily reload foster mount guns during maneuvering that we cannot reload if the drum is not fully spent. Hence, overwing guns are really OP in this game. They should require a pilot to disengage to change the drum.

[No.23_Starling]

3 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

It would be important that the inconvenience of reloading it would be reflected, effectively making it a single shooting gun, requiring a disengage from combat to reload. Then on the other hand, we can easily reload foster mount guns during maneuvering that we cannot reload if the drum is not fully spent. Hence, overwing guns are really OP in this game. They should require a pilot to disengage to change the drum.

Totally agree. If you play WoFF you have to manually crank the mount down, spend a while replacing the magazine, then crack it up again taking a decent amount of time and hands off your other controls. A manual canon reload should be similar - waiting for smoke to clear, opening the breach, reaching for another shell etc etc. 

 

That’s why Madon spent days practicing firing with his 37mm making sure he could hit a meter squared on the ground (see Mechin). Fonck was also a renowned marksman both in the cockpit and out.

Edited September 19, 2023 by US103_Rummell

[No.23_TaxDollarsAtWork]

On 9/18/2023 at 6:32 PM, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

I think not. In this game is to easy to aim and become a sharp shooter/sniper.

It would be to op. Better remove the Bf-109s 30mm Cannons

Incredibly flawed logic

You can reduce it to an absurd level and argue against certain WW2 gun mods being on Fw-190s Bf-109s or Spitfires

We might as well not have any guns in the game because its too easy to be a kind of sniper!
An argument of balance like that is nothing short of childish entitlement.

Especially when its just as easy to say do even more high G, high speed acrobatics for longer than any sane WW1 pilot would to evade the sniper.

Or should we take away your flight stick for gaming the game like that?

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Base2Final

[No.23_Starling]

Whilst I wait for the virtual model build from 1C Studios I shall build my own model.

 

The DM is pretty shoddy.

 

[ZachariasX]

9 hours ago, US103_Rummell said:

The DM is pretty shoddy.

 

If these are all the parts in the box, it would indeed require a cannon to damage it.

 

[No.23_Starling]

On 9/28/2023 at 7:34 AM, ZachariasX said:

 

If these are all the parts in the box, it would indeed require a cannon to damage it.

 

I have just finished the model. Definitely not a beginner friendly kit. Modded it with a Vickers, Aldis, and Deperdussin style wheel using other 1/72 kits, plus jewellery wire for the bracing.

 

She has a very elegant shape with the smaller lower wing and stagger; more like a Pfalz DIIIa than a SPAD VII or XIII. I guess because we have never had her in a sim her profile is unfamiliar. That’s a benefit of physically modelling a type.

[ZachariasX]

14 minutes ago, US103_Rummell said:

I have just finished the model. Definitely not a beginner friendly kit. Modded it with a Vickers, Aldis, and Deperdussin style wheel using other 1/72 kits, plus jewellery wire for the bracing.

Wow. Great work!! I am really impressed... The model really has a different appearance with the different wing layout. What a pretty aircraft!

[No.23_Starling]

3 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

Wow. Great work!! I am really impressed... The model really has a different appearance with the different wing layout. What a pretty aircraft!

The stagger on the wings also gives it a sleek side profile. From the high 6 it reminds me a bit of a Halb DII

[ST_Catchov]

4 hours ago, US103_Rummell said:

 

 

4 hours ago, US103_Rummell said:

 

 

Gosh! Absolutely brilliant Rummy! I really want one in FC now. And such a refreshing change from the nonsense going on elsewhere in this forum.

[No.23_Starling]

There’s some surviving footage of the 37mm firing - see weapon #3.

 

With a dedicated loader the rotating breach mechanism could manage 30+ rounds a minute. You can see it being fired in this manner in the video. The vertical operation on the aviation variant would have been much more fiddly, not to mention having to fly the plane at the same time.

 

Also, observe the smoke produced from firing and the casing shooting back out of the breech. The spent casing would have a been a pain in a tight cockpit.

 

In terms of storage, the US troops used crates of 16 rounds with belts of 8 shells:

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by US103_Rummell

[ZachariasX]

1 hour ago, US103_Rummell said:

The spent casing would have a been a pain in a tight cockpit.

Another reason to wear good clothing in those aircraft. Sometimes it's not just the cold, but also the heat.

[No.23_Starling]

I also just noticed that JM Bruce (Spad Scouts SVII-SXIII) gives speed data for the 220hp XII with the 8Cb higher compression engine. If his source is correct the 1918 version would have been one of the fastest types at the front at all altitudes, a little behind the XIII. That seems plausible given the similar weights and wing areas of the two types.

 

This would explain why the French continued to issue them to aces well into 1918 and why Fonck scored many of his final kills in one.

 

[US103_Baer]

Tbh, I found Bruce's numbers to be all over the shop even from one of his publications to another.  Got issues with that table.

Edited October 12, 2023 by US103_Baer

[No.23_Starling]

All, Christophe Cony’s article from Avions no.23 has some additional photos of Madon’s XII Canon. There’s a great shot of a view from the 6 showing the wing profile.

 

You can also see how high the control wheel sits in the cockpit, plus the serial number of his airframe - S434. I’ve added that to my model.

 

Also note Cony’s assessment that of the 300 ordered, 100 or fewer were built. He includes the performance notes from Guynemer’s initial tests with a top speed of 220kph, ceiling of nearly 7km, and the handling characteristics - the heavier nose compared to the SPAD VII due to the canon made it more sensitive with lateral control impacted by the early rounded wings. The wings were modified with extension pockets to improve handling, and we can see these on Madon’s airframe. NB this speed is faster than the data quoted by Bruce.

 

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by US103_Rummell

[No.23_Starling]

All, I picked up a 1918 DuPont-made 37mm round casing at auction with trench art on the side depicting the Menin Gate. This thing is big and feels like a small artillery shell, which it is.

 

I can believe that Fonck nearly lost control after dropping a couple of these into his cockpit.

 

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by US103_Rummell

[LukeFF]

A good friend of mine has a 37 mm shell like that as well; it has trench art on it that was created by a relative of his who was in an artillery battery during the conflict. Really neat stuff. ??

[ST_Catchov]

On 10/17/2023 at 8:12 AM, US103_Rummell said:

I picked up a 1918 DuPont-made 37mm round casing

 

The casing is impressive indeed Rummy, as impressive as your collection of WW1 literature I'd wager. I note what I presume to be an early edition of 'Wind in the Wires' (by Grinnell-Milne) in the background. I'd never heard of this chap or the book until now. Is it a good read? Well, it must be I suppose, he flew Se5a's, and had, from what I can gather, an interesting and full life. There's few things in life more satisfactory than settling down with a good WW1 autobiography. IMO.

[No.23_Starling]

37 minutes ago, ST_Catchov said:

 

The casing is impressive indeed Rummy, as impressive as your collection of WW1 literature I'd wager. I note what I presume to be an early edition of 'Wind in the Wires' (by Grinnell-Milne) in the background. I'd never heard of this chap or the book until now. Is it a good read? Well, it must be I suppose, he flew Se5a's, and had, from what I can gather, an interesting and full life. There's few things in life more satisfactory than settling down with a good WW1 autobiography. IMO.

I’ve a few tomes ? A lot of the good history is in older books and journals. In the case of the Spad XII lore I’ve had to find French magazines from the 90s and random books on armaments. I really think the community would benefit from an online library.

 

Grinnell-Milne is one of the funniest and most engaging writers in the canon. He’s thin on the combat details but makes up for it with sardonic wit. I think you can pick up copies on eBay for a few squid.

[No.23_Starling]

Friends, my copies of Avions from 1995 including the pieces by Christophe Cony have arrived. He provides a few more details and photos not found elsewhere. We have one of either Raymond or Bozon-Verduraz in an SPA 3. In the case of the latter his kill list printed in Mechin’s book doesnt say what type was used so he may have scored with it.

 

Next we have Hugues posing with his XII-Canon:

 

The most interesting comment is around the total number produced and used. He estimates around 30 and notes that types were known to have been flown by multiple pilots. The inventory data he gives is 5 recorded in issue by April 1918 and 8 by November. 
 

If you look the scores listed above plus the records of those who flew it something is not right - either airframes were shared a lot or the inventory records as quoted are not correct. I count at least 20 including those issued to the RFC and USAS. I’m going to speak to David Mechin about seeing the original documents. Salute.

 

PS I see that the Albatros DII Canon is appearing in servers, of which only one was built and tested, never seeing service (see Flying Guns of WW1 for the history).

Edited October 23, 2023 by US103_Rummell

[No.23_Starling]

All, following some additional research with support from historian David Mechin and the publication of the fantastic new book on the Spad - The Spad S.XIII Volume 1 by Martin Schutz - we find more compelling evidence of construction numbers.

 

The first titbit from Schutz tells us that a sole order was placed with SPAD for 135 XII Canon on 07.07.1917. He states that a payment confirmation from STAe for 20 appeared on 08.08.1917 one month later.

 

In November we find a frustrated footnote in an official report (thanks David for his photo of the original documents) on airframe inventory that only 2 Canon have made it to the front. We can assume these are S.382 and S.383.

 

Schutz then analyses the serial data saying that the XII serials pick up again at S.433 lasting to at least S.467 but most likely up to S.496, with the possibility that some VIIs or XIIIs might be hiding in that group.

 

He concludes that no more than 66 XII Canon could have been built based upon this data. This number is in the ballpark I suspected.

 

Not a massive production but still far more than some of the types included in Rise of Flight and Flying Circus.

[No.23_Starling]

Martin has kindly shared the original order document from the STAe and says that his extensive research has seen no further orders:

 

 

This contradicts the order for 300 stated in several older publications; I'm reaching out to a few contacts to try and find out where this number of 300 ordered units originated, as the above primary source is the only one I have seen.

[No.23_Starling]

Hi friends, I’ve found primary source evidence regarding the usage of canister rounds in the 37mm gun. It is mentioned in the odd secondary source that both HE and canister rounds were available to the SPAD-Canon; David Mechin has kindly shared original French after action reports from the Salonica theatre from April 1916 regarding sorties flown in the Voisin-Canon.

 

You’ll see in the incidents section that one of the Voisin-Canon fired “6 boites a mitrailles” at a Fokker (Eindecker, presumably. 
 

There’s a number of these reports on the usage of the Voisin-Canon; I’ll see if I can find examples of hits of kills with this ammo type.

 

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by US103_Rummell

[No.23_Starling]

All, another find from a couple of books I just acquired - Early Aircraft Armament by Woodman, and Aircraft Weapons of WW1 by Tom Laemlein. 
 

Both mention that the improved 37mm automatic canon was ready by late 1918 and saw combat trials. If we have the DII Kanon then no less reason to have the late SPAD XII. There’s also a photo of the weapon provided to show the slight difference with the clip loading.

 

 

[ZachariasX]

Great finds, thanks so much for sharing!!

[No.23_Starling]

All, Greg Van Wyngarden has kindly shared several additional photos of SPAD XIIs. One is of Spa 81 ace Jacques Leps sitting in the cockpit of his Canon. Note the escadrille marking on the side. It’s not clear if he scored any kills whilst flying one from the records.

 

[No.23_Starling]

All, I found a video in the French archives of an observer firing the 37mm canon from a two seater pusher https://imagesdefense.gouv.fr/fr/avions-en-vol-hydravion-pigeons-guynemer.html

 

Starts at 2’30”. Starts with practice loading then actual firing over water.

[ST_Catchov]

 

 

2 hours ago, US103_Rummell said:

37mm canon

 

Oh my. That's one hell of a weapon.

 

The footage of the Nieuports toward the end and the aviator puffin' on a fag as he boards his bus is priceless. More please ....

[No.23_Starling]

Hi all, I thought I'd share a recent pick-up from an antique dealer in Paris. I've never seen this photo in print previously and to my knowledge is unique.

 

I initially thought it was a XII Canon, but from further research this turns out to be a XXIV Canon. This is the naval seaplane version of the XII, the XIV, but with the floats removed and converted back to the XII land-based configuration.

 

To my knowledge only one was converted back to the XII setup with wheels, which is the airframe below. Its proper serial should be S.595; it looks like for some reason the 5s have been painted over (thanks to Martin Schutz for that spot!). Davilla has another photo of this airframe from a different angle.

 

Note the gnarly nose hub around the canon muzzle. Pretty metal. The writing in French is a mechanical instruction to not drain the engine systems rather than a threat to la Boche.

 

 

Edited June 3, 2024 by US103_Rummell

[=BLW=Pablo]

I support the suggestion!

+1

[No.23_Starling]

@Holtzauge I found the technical data below at the Musee Air in Paris. It matches the data used by Connors in his book and the numbers quoted from Guynemer's tests. I assume this document to be take from those tests. It goes to show why it's important to go back to original sources

 

The only missing piece now for me is the animation of the canon firing and the recoil of the breach between the pilot's knees. I've asked Bourget if it's possible for someone to film the loading and cocking action of one of their survivors.

 

[Holtzauge]

30 minutes ago, US103_Rummell said:

@Holtzauge I found the technical data below at the Musee Air in Paris. It matches the data used by Connors in his book and the numbers quoted from Guynemer's tests. I assume this document to be take from those tests. It goes to show why it's important to go back to original sources

 

The only missing piece now for me is the animation of the canon firing and the recoil of the breach between the pilot's knees. I've asked Bourget if it's possible for someone to film the loading and cocking action of one of their survivors.

 

 

Absolutely best to go back to original sources and not just trust some quotes or random numbers in a book: This is why I used original French flight test data from STAE like the attached chart when I tuned my SPAD XIII C++ model. However, while the SL speed matches with the numbers you quoted above, STAE (and the performance data in my book) is more optimistic about the top speed at 5 km altitude and the climb time.

 

[No.23_Starling]

 

All, I found another photo in the French archives of a XII. I can’t identify the units or pilots - if any of you recognise an ace please comment. You can see the control wheel and single Vickers beneath the top wing. This is likely taken in early 1918 when many airframes were issued to each escadrille for usage by their best pilots.