SPAD XII-Canon Collector Plane

[No.23_Starling]

Hi friends! I've uncovered a bit more info about the type and think I've cracked the control system.

 

I came across a photo of a XII under construction with SPAD (in the archives at Musee de l'armee de l'air) which gives a good view of the cockpit in the bottom right:

 

 

If you look closely you can see the inverted U shape of the Deperdessin control system described by Guynemer, and the 4 spokes of the wheel suggesting it was a complete wheel without any segments removed:

 

  

 

This inverted U frame is also just visible in some other photos including a still from a film of Guynemer with his own airframe:

 

Here's a photo of a Deperdussin Type B from the Paris aviation museum to give a better idea of what this looks like in a surviving type and the various connecting control wires and rods:

 

 

In terms of how the system works, there's a nice video of a model on YouTube to show it in action:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKqyB1w0Hn8

 

As for how the cannon was fired, surviving technical drawings (taken from https://www.histavia21.net/amaviapag/37 mm S.P.A.D Canon.htm) show that a Bowden firing cable ran from the gun (labelled "vers commande de tir"), most likely to the control wheel, although I cant find a photo of this. The system suggested in La Pilote a L'Edelweiss seems plausible, likewise the inclusion of the SPAD VII MG trigger:

 

 

Lastly, the URL linked above mentions that the spare shells (10-12 seems to be the consensus) were stored ad hoc in a rack to the right of the cockpit; Jon Guttman quotes Fonck in SPAD XII/XIII Aces of World War 1 who nearly killed himself after dislodging the shells and saw them getting jammed in the sides of the Deperdussin controls.

 

John F. Connors in SPAD Fighters in Action notes that the SPAD XII had several upgrades includes the 220hp engine, a new smooth bore cannon to improve accuracy, and the modified wing tips seen on the SPAD XIII. If the type wasn't important nor operational from 1917 through to the end of the war why would the French have bothered with the upgrades?

 

I think we now have enough images, data, photos, and technical drawings linked here to recreate this plane if we were so inclined. What's curious for a type where only 300 were ordered according to Bruce, Connors, and Guttman, (estimates vary on numbers active at any one time or deployed with 1-2 issued to each escadrille plus a couple to the USAS and RFC) is the amount of photography that survives for a relatively niche plane, and indeed, a film. Most of the top French aces flew it, as did some of the USAS aces (including Captain Biddle).

 

Also consider that, according to Jack Herris in Germany's Fighter Competitions, the most number of Fokker Eindekker E.Is active on the front at any one time was 26 in December 1915 - the most numerous seems to be the E.III with 110 active in April 1916. Even the Dr.I saw no more than 171 active at the front in 1918.

 

Before Sizzlor or others jump down my throat with accusations around relative importance of types or their relevance, I still think it would make a very interesting collector plane, and was a key development in aerial warfare with nose-mounted cannons becoming the norm by the 1940s.

 

Salute friends! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[J99_Sizzlorr]

1 hour ago, US103_Rummell said:

Hi friends! I've uncovered a bit more info about the type and think I've cracked the control system.

 

I came across a photo of a XII under construction with SPAD (in the archives at Musee de l'armee de l'air) which gives a good view of the cockpit in the bottom right:

 

 

If you look closely you can see the inverted U shape of the Deperdessin control system described by Guynemer, and the 4 spokes of the wheel suggesting it was a complete wheel without any segments removed:

 

  

 

This inverted U frame is also just visible in some other photos including a still from a film of Guynemer with his own airframe:

 

Here's a photo of a Deperdussin Type B from the Paris aviation museum to give a better idea of what this looks like in a surviving type and the various connecting control wires and rods:

 

 

In terms of how the system works, there's a nice video of a model on YouTube to show it in action:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKqyB1w0Hn8

 

As for how the cannon was fired, surviving technical drawings (taken from https://www.histavia21.net/amaviapag/37 mm S.P.A.D Canon.htm) show that a Bowden firing cable ran from the gun (labelled "vers commande de tir"), most likely to the control wheel, although I cant find a photo of this. The system suggested in La Pilote a L'Edelweiss seems plausible, likewise the inclusion of the SPAD VII MG trigger:

 

 

 

Lastly, the URL linked above mentions that the spare shells (10-12 seems to be the consensus) were stored ad hoc in a rack to the right of the cockpit; Jon Guttman quotes Fonck in SPAD XII/XIII Aces of World War 1 who nearly killed himself after dislodging the shells and saw them getting jammed in the sides of the Deperdussin controls.

 

John F. Connors in SPAD Fighters in Action notes that the SPAD XII had several upgrades includes the 220hp engine, a new smooth bore cannon to improve accuracy, and the modified wing tips seen on the SPAD XIII. If the type wasn't important nor operational from 1917 through to the end of the war why would the French have bothered with the upgrades?

 

I think we now have enough images, data, photos, and technical drawings linked here to recreate this plane if we were so inclined. What's curious for a type where only 300 were ordered according to Bruce, Connors, and Guttman, (estimates vary on numbers active at any one time or deployed with 1-2 issued to each escadrille plus a couple to the USAS and RFC) is the amount of photography that survives for a relatively niche plane, and indeed, a film. Most of the top French aces flew it, as did some of the USAS aces (including Captain Biddle).

 

Also consider that, according to Jack Herris in Germany's Fighter Competitions, the most number of Fokker Eindekker E.Is active on the front at any one time was 26 in December 1915 - the most numerous seems to be the E.III with 110 active in April 1916. Even the Dr.I saw no more than 171 active at the front in 1918.

 

Before Sizzlor or others jump down my throat with accusations around relative importance of types or their relevance, I still think it would make a very interesting collector plane, and was a key development in aerial warfare with nose-mounted cannons becoming the norm by the 1940s.

 

Salute friends! 

 

What do you have with me all the time? I already said it would be cool to have those iconic aircrafts even though only 20 were produced. But you can not compare aircraft type numbers from 1915 and 1917. Plane quantity grew with the years, there were more people trained as pilots and manufacturing was more and more industrialized. It is very natural that Eindekkers were of lower quantities because plane types were in lower quantities generally than any other plane type in the following years. You need to look at the relations to other aircraft types of the same period. Like the Fokker Dr.I a plane type in limited numbers was still 9 times more numerous than the Spad XII.

[J2_Trupobaw]

Quote

Also consider that, according to Jack Herris in Germany's Fighter Competitions, the most number of Fokker Eindekker E.Is active on the front at any one time was 26 in December 1915 - the most numerous seems to be the E.III with 110 active in April 1916. Even the Dr.I saw no more than 171 active at the front in 1918.

The absolute numbers are meaningless. The 110 Eindeckers were vast majority of Jagdfliegern; the 100-170 Dr.Is make 13-21% of total strength (and 80% plus for Jagdgeschwederen strength).  Spad XII is a very interesting plane much more as curiosity/flavour than mainstay. If we are looking for a in-game precedent for it, it's the D.VIII or S.16. I'd rather have Nieuport 24, THE Entente frontline fighter of late 1917, and  biggest gap in French and British planeset. 50% of available planes on 1917 maps should be N.24s, with Camels, S.Es, Tripes, 150hp Spads and Pups (or advanced Spads for French) being togethr making the other half. Let's not go into D.H.5s  .

My main concern is still the control system. This is a plane that should be flown with a yoke, or have joystick controls artificially sluggish... a can of worms in this community. Plus, it's modus operandi is "hit and kill on first pass or lose the fight". I'd love to fly it in single player but, like the parachute, it's a great frustrator best kept out of multiplier. Most people will just be pissed at different aspects of having it / dealing with it. 

EDIT: Will preorder it the moment it's available.

Edited February 7, 2023 by J2_Trupobaw

[No.23_Starling]

You're right Trupo, the controls were hard to master according to many such as Biddle (see Guttman), not to mention the smoke in the cockpit (Guttman, Bruce etc). The simple truth is that the aces were able to get plenty of kills with the twin Vickers in the more conventional XIII when firing at canvas and wood, not all-metal armoured monoplanes. It's probably why there's no evidence to suggest that all CL2s or even a substantial majority used cannons - the MG was more effective in RL situations for defending against scouts. I'm also not suggesting the XII should come before FC3 with a ton of the more common types you list above, only that it would make a cool collector plane and shouldn't be dismissed as totally irrelevant. It's also cool to have cracked how the controls worked! Fun nerdy detective work.

 

Sizz - my last word on the forum which is also for the benefit of the community: the surviving sources point to between 1 and 300 XIIs being produced; we simply don't know how many were built and operational as the surviving records don't give a definitive answer, plus many escadrilles were named simply SPA meaning SPAD type with a mix of several variants. You don't know how much more numerous the Dr.I was than the XII; none of us do, but it was probably much more common hence it's in FC volume 1 (that, and its fame). I personally think it the Dr.1 has no right being in any 1917 MP when the sources (Herris) say it was about as numerous as the SPAD XII was in 1918.

 

I've presented the facts as I've found them here with named sources and any assumptions I've made and I don't take giant leaps of faith like you do. The problem in particularl is when your leaps of faith impact multiplayer experience and the one server we have kindly supported by J5, e.g. all 2-seaters getting cannons, where no source is produced to say that anything of the sort happened; moreover, telling community members that they are toxic and are 'being watched' for sharing data as per the above is going to have a backlash. If you want a serious debate then cite your sources in detail and find data to refute any of the data supplied above, otherwise I'm hitting ignore.

[J2_Trupobaw]

Quote

You don't know how much more numerous the Dr.I was than the XII; none of us do, but it was probably much more common hence it's in FC volume 1 (that, and its fame).

We know all Jastas that are known to use it. JG 2 and 3 were using them in all squadrons; in JG1 Jasta 6 was running full Dr.I staffel and Jasta 11 used a mix of Dr.I and D.Va (MvR was big on combining arms). Several other squadrons used them, but in most cases they were hand-me-downs from JGs. But this is still at least 9.5 out of 80 Jastas. The JG Jastas were rather better than average supplied, but assuming that all Jastas were at strong-average strength of 10 planes, it's 95+ out of 800 planes in service at the same time. 

The other important thing is impact. Entente pilot usually never met a Dr.I (if he served in quiet sector). But if he did meet them, it was circus of 20-40 of them all coming together.  Where they showed up, they were well visible and made huge impact.

Spad XII, in comparison, was used by individual aces. Much like Fokker D.VIII, or Dr.Is in 1918, it was addition to, never a mainstay of, a formation. I'm not sure how far introduction of Dr.Is went in winter 1917/1918 before they were grounded, but there was less fighting in that period in first place.

A "1917" scenario that is not heavily saturated with Nieuports is a fantasy anyway, and that's before your 1916-configured DFW gets run down by mid-1918 Viper S.E.5s. I treat them as "no BMW scenarios" and rest easy. 

Edited February 7, 2023 by J2_Trupobaw

[J99_Sizzlorr]

1 hour ago, US103_Rummell said:

I've presented the facts as I've found them here with named sources and any assumptions I've made and I don't take giant leaps of faith like you do. The problem in particularl is when your leaps of faith impact multiplayer experience and the one server we have kindly supported by J5, e.g. all 2-seaters getting cannons, where no source is produced to say that anything of the sort happened; moreover, telling community members that they are toxic and are 'being watched' for sharing data as per the above is going to have a backlash. If you want a serious debate then cite your sources in detail and find data to refute any of the data supplied above, otherwise I'm hitting ignore.

The all 2 seaters getting cannons is nothing that is set in my mission design, it is controlled by the loadout options for the server which I can not change because as you pointed out already J5 is kindly running it. Please stop making yourself look like a fool everytime you write something about me.

Edited February 7, 2023 by J99_Sizzlorr

[J99_Sizzlorr]

30 minutes ago, US103_Rummell said:

That might be true about server load outs but you told my and a few others that the Bekker was a common weapon on German two seaters, and suggested I buy SchlachtFleiger which was your source. That book does not list it in chapter XXV p.165 as a standard weapon.

 You mean this conversation? 

Quote

 

Waggaz — 29.10.2022 21:51
Can you recommend any good books on German 2 seater planes?
[21:51]
I’m rubbish at identification of anything not in Rise of Flight

J99_Sizzlorr — 29.10.2022 21:51
Schlachtflieger

 

Waggaz — 29.10.2022 21:51
Is that a book?

J99_Sizzlorr — 29.10.2022 21:51
yes

 

Help me to find the passage where I did say it is my source for Beckers being common. Or where I ever said that they are common...

 

When I come up with sources you don't read them anyway ?

Edited February 7, 2023 by J99_Sizzlorr

[J99_Sizzlorr]

11 minutes ago, US103_Rummell said:

It was either in the J5 Discord or said verbally. I left that chat to stay out of these sorts of arguments.  If it’s a he says/ she says situation and nobody has the voice recording it’s a moot point.

 

Going back to the earlier point you made on the Dr.I being 9 times more common, or all Merc IIIau engines using an alternative fuel mix, neither assertions are backed up with detailed credible evidence, and may not be knowable at all.

If you want an example on structuring a thoughtful response likely backed up by his impressive reading on Jasta compositions, then see Trupo’s post above.

If it’s still in the J5 Discord you could always delete your comments or edit them later like you’re doing here. Either way it doesn’t provide a credible counter argument to the number of types available on the front line at any time. 

Well I showed you an article where everyting I said about Mercedes D.IIIaü using Fliegerbenzin is validated. It has sources you know you can look that up. It is not that I invent this stuff like you make it out that I am doing. The sources the author of the article quotes are books and newspaper articles so buy yourself a copy and stop telling lies about me.

[No.23_Starling]

15 minutes ago, J99_Sizzlorr said:

Well I showed you an article where everyting I said about Mercedes D.IIIaü using Fliegerbenzin is validated. It has sources you know you can look that up. It is not that I invent this stuff like you make it out that I am doing. The sources the author of the article quotes are books and newspaper articles so buy yourself a copy and stop telling lies about me.

Not a lie on any post old bean. I remember clear as day your assertion about the Bekker being a common air-mounted weapon, but it’s a moot point and more one now for J5 to consider, alongside balloon guns that don’t work on balloons!
 

A newspaper article about general engineering does not equal wholesale adoption by all Jastas across all types, though it is interesting, and if there are passages in books to back up your assumption then do give screenshots or passage quotes. That’s what I’ve done above in my SPAD XII post. 
 

BTW just saw your post about edits and English language - my German is terrible so that’s very fair!

 

Anyone just joining Tuesday Night Nerd Squabble, you might want to scroll up to my long post with some cool photos and analysis on the SPAD XII controls! ?

Edited February 7, 2023 by US103_Rummell

[J99_Sizzlorr]

27 minutes ago, US103_Rummell said:

Not a lie on any post old bean. I remember clear as day your assertion about the Bekker being a common air-mounted weapon, but it’s a moot point and more one now for J5 to consider, alongside balloon guns that don’t work on balloons!
 

A newspaper article about general engineering does not equal wholesale adoption by all Jastas across all types, though it is interesting, and if there are passages in books to back up your assumption then do give screenshots or passage quotes. That’s what I’ve done above in my SPAD XII post. 
 

BTW just saw your post about edits and English language - my German is terrible so that’s very fair!

 

Anyone just joining Tuesday Night Nerd Squabble, you might want to scroll up to my long post with some cool photos and analysis on the SPAD XII controls! ?

I still didn't see any proof from you that more than 10 Spads XII made it into frontline service to be fair. 

 

Where do you want me to put the quotes? It is off topic here...

[No.23_Starling]

38 minutes ago, J99_Sizzlorr said:

I still didn't see any proof from you that more than 10 Spads XII made it into frontline service to be fair. 

 

Where do you want me to put the quotes? It is off topic here...

J M Bruce in Air International 10, p.242 states that he only found 8 operational on 1 October 1918 in surviving French records (could have been more but this is what we have) plus those in service with the USAS - Biddle flew one, as he writes about it in his book Fighting Airman. Guynemer had a habit of trashing XIIs usually due to return fire from gunners (Guttman), and we know several other French aces had one.
 

All the sources agree on the numbers ordered from SPAD at 300 (Bruce, Guttman, Davilla, Connors) and that a couple were issued to the best pilots in the escadrilles du chasse, but the data stops there. A proxy would be to take the total number of SPA escadrilles active in 1918 and assign one or two each. I’d need to check the French textbooks on the SPA units but I doubt it’ll be anywhere near three figures.

 

Trupo is right - they flew attached to existing units for the best pilots, but there was never a full unit equipped unlike the Dr.I (if Trupo is right!). The DVIII analogy is an interesting one.

 

Probably best to post anything more on the AU fuel back on the other thread!

Edited February 7, 2023 by US103_Rummell

[J99_Sizzlorr]

5 minutes ago, US103_Rummell said:

J M Bruce in Air International 10, p.242 states that he only found 8 operational on 1 October 1918 in surviving French records (could have been more but this is what we have) plus those in service with the USAS - Biddle flew one, as he writes about it in his book Fighting Airman. Guynemer had a habit of trashing XIIs usually due to return fire from gunners (Guttman), and we know several other French aces had one.
 

All the sources agree on the numbers ordered from SPAD at 300 (Bruce, Guttman, Davilla, Connors) and that a couple were issued to the best pilots in the escadrilles du chasse, but the data stops there. A proxy would be to take the total number of SPA escadrilles active in 1918 and assign one or two each. I’d need to check the French textbooks on the SPA units but I doubt it’ll be anywhere near three figures.

 

Trupo is right - they flew attached to existing units for the best pilots, but there was never a full unit equipped unlike the Dr.I (if Trupo is right!). The DVIII analogy is an interesting one.

 

Probably best to post anything more on the AU fuel back on the other thread!

So no proof of more than 8 being in frontline service now. I think I overstayed my welcome in the other thread but the article is there in its full form and the sources being used. No need for me to post it again just so you can digest it better ?

[No.23_Starling]

28 minutes ago, J99_Sizzlorr said:

So no proof of more than 8 being in frontline service now. I think I overstayed my welcome in the other thread but the article is there in its full form and the sources being used. No need for me to post it again just so you can digest it better ?

Yeah the records aren’t great. There’s more than 20 photos of types I have across a couple of books so we know there were more including those issued to the RFC (which who hated it and crashed one before testing!), but we simply don’t know. I suppose 8 is the minimum and 300 would be the max, but either way we know it was a niche plane compared to the other front line types in Allied service. A nice collector plane but not before the N17!

[ST_Catchov]

11 hours ago, US103_Rummell said:

Hi friends! I've uncovered a bit more info about the type and think I've cracked the control system.

 

Great investigative work Rummy. An interesting bird for sure.

[No.23_Starling]

1 hour ago, ST_Catchov said:

 

Great investigative work Rummy. An interesting bird for sure.

Thanks old pal. I’d never seen that factory photo till very recently and it seems to be the missing piece of evidence around how she worked.

It’s a shame that all we have left physically is examples of the engine plus cannon in French and American museums. I doubt we will ever get her in game but it is nice to know we have enough information to have a crack at creating a credible model if we did.

[No.23_Starling]

Update: just reading Over the Front by Norman Franks, I count 78 SPA escadrilles (units flying SPAD types, often scouts) given in his complete list of French units. On the basis of 1-2 SPAD XIIs being issued to each, plus those issued to the RFC and USAS, a figure between around 10 and 100 doesn’t seem wildly off. Given the surprising amount of surviving photography of the type too, this figure isn’t absurd.

 

Salute all!

[J99_Sizzlorr]

When counting the suprising amount of photography of the Spad XII one can only come up with 6 different Spad XII that were identified, most photos come from early 1918, just one from summer 1917. 

 

Source: http://albindenis.free.fr/Site_escadrille/Societe_SPAD.htm
 

 

Edit: One of those was with a reserve unit.

 

Edit2: All according to the website.

Edited February 10, 2023 by J99_Sizzlorr

[No.23_Starling]

8 hours ago, J99_Sizzlorr said:

When counting the suprising amount of photography of the Spad XII one can only come up with 6 different Spad XII that were identified, most photos come from early 1918, just one from summer 1917. 

 

Source: http://albindenis.free.fr/Site_escadrille/Societe_SPAD.htm
 

 

Edit: One of those was with a reserve unit.

 

Edit2: All according to the website.

I’ll send you a list of all the books I have with photography with images totalling into double figures plus the film of Guynemer showing his own plane to command (if you want). The Air International article by Bruce alone has 6 photos of the XII, and Connors’ book has 12 not in Bruce including one with multiple XIIs with the same batch (see photo), matching the records that a couple were issued to each unit. There’s also my cockpit photo above.

Edited February 10, 2023 by US103_Rummell

[J99_Sizzlorr]

You need to be careful with photos and making assumptions based on them of how many airplanes of that type actually existed. They could all be showing the same thing if that is not checked is what I am trying to say. The french website I linked could identify 6 of them and even link them to a unit in the various sources you qutoed + some french ones.

 

Edit: Do we know all pilots that flew them?

Edited February 11, 2023 by J99_Sizzlorr

[Guest deleted@83466]

Wow, the chances of this plane making it into the series are null to zero.

[No.23_Starling]

10 hours ago, J99_Sizzlorr said:

You need to be careful with photos and making assumptions based on them of how many airplanes of that type actually existed. They could all be showing the same thing if that is not checked is what I am trying to say. The french website I linked could identify 6 of them and even link them to a unit in the various sources you qutoed + some french ones.

 

Edit: Do we know all pilots that flew them?

We know that Guynemer, Fonck, Madon, and Biddle flew one both from the photos and their own diaries (see 3x photos below). Matching airframes to units is impossible without being able to see the tail number and having a surviving escadrille record. Of the 20 odd photos I have 2-3 are clearly of the same plane from different angles.

 

Im amazed they’ve matched 6 let alone the 4 flown by the aces mentioned above. I don’t believe 300 were built and a number between 8 - 100 seems more likely.

 

Biddle mentions (in his book) that Deullin also had one, and Bruce also noted Chavannes, and Marmier too. It fits with the narrative that they were issued in ones and two to each unit and only flown by the top aces:

Edited February 11, 2023 by US103_Rummell

[J99_Sizzlorr]

55 minutes ago, US103_Rummell said:

Im amazed they’ve matched 6 let alone the 4 flown by the aces mentioned above. I don’t believe 300 were built and a number between 8 - 100 seems more likely.

I trust the french knowing their planes. I mean they are the ones who took the pictures anyway. Why did pilots that were issued a Spad XII keep their other Spad as well?

[No.23_Starling]

3 hours ago, J99_Sizzlorr said:

I trust the french knowing their planes. I mean they are the ones who took the pictures anyway. Why did pilots that were issued a Spad XII keep their other Spad as well?

There’s no good evidence to answer that. The 200-220hp geared engines were unreliable vs the early direct drive 180hp VIIs which is why many escadrilles kept their VIIs right to November. It might also be an issue of performance vs firepower. Guynemer called the XII his ‘avion magique’ (Guttman) but then switched to the XIII once it was available; the XIII offered better performance thanks to the lighter weight, and he found twin Vickers fine for shooting down canvas and wood biplanes. Cannons were probably overkill at this stage in aerial warfare!

[Duckman]

I'm usually not a fan of odd variants (the resources are better spent elsewhere) but this is an exception, a true "ace" plane that saw significant combat. Plus it's really cool and different, of course.

 

Seems like it was made for its own DLC.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Duckman

[Duckman]

On 2/7/2023 at 6:41 PM, US103_Rummell said:

Speaking of mounted guns, the only non Maxim I could find in the book is this. Any idea what it is??

 

An eccentric choice indeed. The Luftstreitkräfte used Mauser and Mondragon semi-auto rifles and it looks a bit like them, so that's my best guess even if it's not a perfect match. Perhaps a modded version?

Edited February 15, 2023 by Duckman

[Duckman]

It's hard to see what's part of the mount and what's part of the rifle, so on a second glance I'm not so sure the boxy thing in the middle is a magazine. It's also in the wrong place as far the semi-autos are concerned. 

 

Given the bulk and the length of the barrel I almost want to suggest the Mauser 1918 T-Gewehr, which was also intended for use against aircraft. The mystery continues.

[Trooper117]

Its a Parabellum, Model 14/17 with the cooling shroud removed.

 

Edit... in 1918, a good number of Schlasta machine gunners were using an Oigee telescopic sight on the model IMG 14/17 to facilitate aiming at ground targets... (from the book 'Schlact-Flieger')

Edited February 15, 2023 by Trooper117

[No.23_Starling]

All, just a coda to this thread. The XII was also adapted for seaplane usage, given the designation of SPAD XIV, using a 37mm Hotchkiss canon in place of the Puteaux (Connors says it was a Hotchkiss; Davilla says the Puteaux), and with the wings enlarged to compensate for the weight of the floats. Connors quotes around 40 being built, with one being used for racing after the war in Monaco (see photo below).

 

Including this in the game isn't so crazy when we consider that the HD2 was added to Rise of Flight with similar production numbers - Davilla gives 17 HD2s delivered between Jan - Oct 1917 and about double that on record at the end of 1918 - and just as in Rise of Flight with the HD1, you could adapt the assets from one to create the other. Just a thought.

 

 

Racing post war:

 

S!

Edited February 19, 2023 by US103_Rummell

[ST_Catchov]

Yep, I'd like one of them birds Rummy. But we need an Adriatic Sea map and a skyfull of flying boats and float planes. Think of it in MP!

[No.23_Starling]

Interesting to see that the Allied pilots were given recognition images for the XII alongside the VII and XIII. It couldn’t have been so rare that friendly fire wasn’t a risk. Original scan courtesy of Mr Talbot.

[No.23_Starling]

All, a few more photos for you. The first two are of the 13th Aero's SPAD XII numbered 0. You can see the Deperdussin control wheel in front of the pilot. Charles Biddle found it to be a bit of a beast and preferred his XIII.

 

I also found a photo of SPAD XII S.454 - NB that Fonck flew XII Canon numbers S.445 and S.452.

 

Lastly, I came across an old explanation of the Deperdussin controls as used in the SPAD XII.

 

Enjoy! Here's hoping.

 

 

 

 

 

[No.23_Starling]

Additional: it looks like S.454 went to Nungesser. See photo with his personal markings at Le Bourget

 

Ive also found photos of Deullin with his personal XII Canon. There’s several photos of him posing with her and was likely the airframe he used to score kill #20.

 

Reading David Mechin’s fantastic book series on the French aces it is interesting to note the number of kills scored in the XII by Fonck - twenty odd - and that he used it for a decent length of time. It clearly wasn’t just a curiosity for Fonck given the number of kills he scored with the Canon.

 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2023 by US103_Rummell

[No.23_Starling]

My last post this week, I promise! Some more photos for you all including an interesting one of Guynemer handling the 37mm shells. Those are no joke:

 

 

Also some additional photos of Guynemer's XII Canon which was used to score 5 of his final 6 kills. One is of his XII Canon with the wings removed for repairs after he got hit by return fire from a couple of recon planes. You can see some of cockpit instrumentation here, possibly the tachometer on the left, and the Deperdussin wheel:

 

 

Lastly, a couple more pics of his XII in which you can make out the special camera fitted next to the Vickers MG as suggested by @ZachariasX earlier in the thread:

 

 

 

I've also found mention in David Mechin's WW1 French Aces series of SPA 75 receiving a XII Canon in summer 1918, though there's no photo I can find of the airframe nor it's likely intended pilot in seat, ace William Herisson.

 

The fact that the type was still being issued to leading aces well into 1918 tells us that it was still important enough to be built and issued to front line units until the end of the conflict.

 

 

Edited September 4, 2023 by US103_Rummell

[ZachariasX]

Great additions to this thread @US103_Rummell!

 

What makes an aircraft important ex-post not necessarily needs to correlate with its actual importance back then...

[No.23_Starling]

Hi all, the more digging I do, the more French aces I discover that either had a XII-Canon and scored victories in the type, or flew one but with a lack of evidence of kills. I'm working my way through the fantastic multi-volume WW1 French Aces Encyclopedia by David Mechin, who has also been kind enough to support my own research, and can thoroughly recommend these books to anyone wanting detailed biographies of France's top pilots and their victories.

 

In addition to William Herrison's XII-Canon mentioned above, Mechin also notes that Henri de Slade was given one to fly but seems not to have liked it and kept to his personal VII and XIII. Another ace who had one was Gabriel Guerin. There's a surviving photo of him with one, serial S.444 - see below. The logbook of SPA 15 shows that a lecture was given to their pilots on the operation of the 37mm gun on 31st January 1918, confirming the presence of at least one airframe in the escadrille in early 1918. The photo here (from Jon Guttman) could be from that session:

 

 

Mechin attributes one of Guerin's two victories from 3rd February 1918 as likely being scored in this airframe, with the first victim being described as dramatically exploding in flight, presumably following a strike from a 37mm shell. The unfortunate foe was most likely Uffz Otto Gumz and Ltn Karl Otto, killed over Beine for Guerin's 14th confirmed kill.

 

 

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by US103_Rummell

[ZachariasX]

48 minutes ago, US103_Rummell said:

Hi all, the more digging I do, the more French aces I discover that either had a XII-Canon and scored victories in the type, or flew one but with a lack of evidence of kills.

Great info!! Truly an overlooked aircraft. If they only had supplied it to the Americans as well, then we would have it in all the WW1 sims. ?

[No.23_Starling]

33 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

Great info!! Truly an overlooked aircraft. If they only had supplied it to the Americans as well, then we would have it in all the WW1 sims. ?

It was! The photo is above. One was given to Putnam but he died before he could use it. Biddle instead got to play with it but found it a bit terrifying, sticking to his XIII.

[No.23_Starling]

All, I've finally found a description of a kill with the 37mm. Georges Madon started practicing in his XII-Canon in early 1918; according David Mechin he practiced his gunnery till he could hit a sq.m. patch of ground. On 29th January he used it against a 2-seater which he "broke in two" with his first round, although the kill wasn't confirmed.

 

Later on the 3rd April he scored a double kill with his bright red XII-Canon. Madon's words are worth sharing here (translated by David Mechin):

"I'm flying behind the fighter. I am curious now about how my explosive shells behave against devices where there is only one pilot. I come very close and I take all precautions to aim, because we must not miss the point that we want to touch... About 20 meters. It only has to trigger. That's what I do. Boum! Here again, an immediate effect, perhaps even more immediate than with my Boche from the 29th of January. The shell struck on the tail plane, at the height of the drift plane. The airplane stings on the nose, turns a spin and loses its back, then rushes like an "I" towards the ground where it breaks into the air in incalculable small pieces."

 

Madon scored 3 kills in this type before switching back to his XIII. I suspect that early 1918 would have been the high point for XII-Canon numbers, with many aces switching to the XIII due to a lack of need for a 37mm to score kills, with 2x MGs doing the job. Madon eventually scored 41 confirmed and 64 probables in his bright red planes. If only he'd been a German aristocrat then he might have been better remembered.

 

 

[No.23_Starling]

Interesting to see that a single XII-Canon was sometimes shared. Here’s an example from SPA 112 used by aces Lionel de Marmier and Chavannes. Notice their two initials on the side of this airframe. They were awarded it in May 1918 after becoming aces.

 

The more I dig the more it seems that in game we should have 1-2 of the type for any SPA escadrille represented in 1918 with aces.

 

 

[No.23_Starling]

I just found mention of use of the XII-Canon in ground attack, again in David Mechin's research. Ace Gustave Daladier of SPA 93 took ownership of his in June 1918, using it in July during the Second Battle of the Marne. Spotting an active battery of 77s, he attacked with his 37mm gun, routing the crews and sending the horses into a panic.

 

I can't find a photo of his XII-Canon, but there's a great one of him in his SPAD VII: