ME410 'Performance'

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

It is awkward in practice, the problem is if they only showed the combat timer icon when your in the perfect 30 min setting, what would they show for the areas in between the perfect setting? For example if combat is 2500 rpm and emergency is 2700, what would they show when your at 2600? It would be nice if they expanded the icons to provide more info, like if your using the timer at a lower or faster rate if your in an in between setting, instead of leaving us to memorize or write down which throttle % lasts x minutes.

[Robli]

15 hours ago, the_emperor said:

and here in lies the problem. You cant, as the gauges dont give you any indication that you are running the engine beyond its time limit or outside it comfort zone.

 

Well, I can fly by the gauges, because that is what I do. Of course you need to know your plane's engine specs to be able to do that.

[the_emperor]

4 hours ago, Robli said:

 

Well, I can fly by the gauges, because that is what I do. Of course you need to know your plane's engine specs to be able to do that.

Of course, flying by reading MAP gauge and tachometer is no problem.

What I meant is, that you cant read by the gauges if your WEP Time is up. as there is no indication for that or any Feedback/warning from the engine that indicates to you to throttle back. (could be easily implement by drop in oil pressure for the DB605a e.g. or rough running of the engine, to give you enough heads up to throttle back without damage)

you really have keep an eye on the clock. and that is very arcade like instead of a proper simulation of those aero engine that we can take care of.

I want the engine of the airplane to give feedback of its state as the air plane does when I manoeuvre  it through the air.

Edited August 16, 2022 by the_emperor

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

What emperor said and also looking at the rpm and ata gauges will only work if you're running the engine by the book. If your trying to push extra performance out of your engine you need to ride the edge of max combat or hit a certain % to run a lower emergency setting longer, and being off by a partial percent can mean your engine dying much quicker then you expected. You need to game techochat to get the most performance out of your engine reliably.

[CountZero]

15 hours ago, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

It is awkward in practice, the problem is if they only showed the combat timer icon when your in the perfect 30 min setting, what would they show for the areas in between the perfect setting? For example if combat is 2500 rpm and emergency is 2700, what would they show when your at 2600? It would be nice if they expanded the icons to provide more info, like if your using the timer at a lower or faster rate if your in an in between setting, instead of leaving us to memorize or write down which throttle % lasts x minutes.

 

Its simple, it would work like now but it would show corect value. continuous mode icon would show up from 0-max continuous, then combat from max continuous to max combat, and emergancy from max combat to max emergancy.

 

So you know when you see combat icon in techcat your in combat, and you have at minimum 30min if you fly max combat and more if you fly less, and when you see emergancy icon your no longer in combat, and your using timer faster then max 30min.

 

Problem with how its now, icon is telling you your using max combat of 30min but your not, your already using emergancy, and waisting that timer faster. Combaine that with techchat bug that is not showing when timer runs out, and you easy brake engine not knowing why, techchat was saying your in combat, so you expect 30min time of use as min, but your engine broke after ~20min. Thats why switch from combat mode to emergancy mode icon have to happend after you cross that max combat settings defined in specs, so you as player know that you no longer can count on that 30min. No aditional icons for mods and so on, just correct % at what switch happend.

 

1 hour ago, the_emperor said:

Of course, flying by reading MAP gauge and tachometer is no problem.

What I meant is, that you cant read by the gauges if your WEP Time is up. as there is no indication for that or any Feedback/warning from the engine that indicates to you to throttle back. (could be easily implement by drop in oil pressure for the DB605a e.g. or rough running of the engine, to give you enough heads up to throttle back without damage)

you really have keep an eye on the clock. and that is very arcade like instead of a proper simulation of those aero engine that we can take care of.

I want the engine of the airplane to give feedback of its state as the air plane does when I manoeuvre  it through the air.

 

He is type of player who would say to you just fly without icons on, why are you complaining that there is bugs with icons, i fly without icons on so there is no problem. Failing to understand other players side. Whats wrong with techchat , just dont use it fly with cockpit, even though there is no indication in cockpit about engine timers expired or recovered ( and they are not everytime same 1min, 5min 15min and so on, and on top how long it takes to fully recover timer on differant engines, its just guess work...), because they didnt exist in real airplanes or were not so important to health of engine like they are in game.

Why even on so caled full real setting game still have compas displayed, why not just not remove it also... there is reason for some things stil on and have to be correct in game.

Edited August 16, 2022 by CountZero

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

Your not running the emergency timer down at max combat, you're using the combat timer at a faster rate. You can test it by running max combat with the instrument panel on until its limit is reached. It will give you the combat expired message not the emergency expired message, and your emergency time will still work, but you'll likely break your engine anyways if you continue to run it in emergency, even though your emergency timer is good because your combat timer is expired, but that's a separate issue with the timers. If we do your suggestion and have the system switch to emergency at 2501 rpm then you remove the ability to run the combat timer harder, and nerf the plane. But I fully agree timers are very awkward, I'd rather they be completely removed from the game and have every plane run on whatever system they use on the yaks that can be read by looking at your temp gauges to see how much "time" you have.

[the_emperor]

So the 1min limit of Start&Notleistung of the 109s DB605a seems to have been applied to the DB603/Me-410 as well.

does any one have seen documents on that? thus far, I have only seen manuals without limit

@iFoxRomeo found this: https://www.muzeumlotnictwa.pl/index.php/digitalizacja/katalog/838

no limits but temperature (10min for max temps) and Rev limits.

My 1942 Motoren-Handbuch und  1943 Flugzeug -Handbuch also dont stat any limits

Edited September 1, 2022 by the_emperor

[EAF19_Marsh]

On 8/16/2022 at 2:31 PM, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

 But I fully agree timers are very awkward, I'd rather they be completely removed from the game and have every plane run on whatever system they use on the yaks that can be read by looking at your temp gauges to see how much "time" you have.

 

Following on from the Spit XIV conversation, your post is again a depressing commentary on how for most aircraft the 'game' actually works .

[the_emperor]

From the flight manual of the Do-335 with DB603a. No 1min limit mentioned! 

Start&Notleistung shall only be used in emergency situations or take off from small airfield or with heavy take off weight and for a short amount of time as it puts strain on the engine:

 

 

Has any one thus far seen 1min limit for the DB603a or the Me-410 in any manuals?

[Supercharger]

5 hours ago, the_emperor said:

Has any one thus far seen 1min limit for the DB603a or the Me-410 in any manuals?

Never seen such a time limit for DB engines at emergency & take off power. In my opinion we will never find such figures because DB want to use this power only in case of an "emergency" or take off. And in case of an emergency its up to the pilot to decide if he wants to get trouble because of an shooting enemy or an worn out seized engine. This is different to BMW where they mentioned a 3 Min. time limit for the 801 at take off power. 

But in case of the german "special emergency power" rating we have accurate time limits because it is "wet" power with some kind of injection (MW50,GM1 or additional fuel). For me it looks like that emergency & take off power is not an "free to use" rating like special emergency power. Therefore some manufacturer did not guarantee time limits for take off power(dry).

[the_emperor]

41 minutes ago, Supercharger said:

This is different to BMW where they mentioned a 3 Min. time limit for the 801 at take off power.

When the Start & Notleistung rating for the DB605a was finally released (over a year after the engines introduction) it was set to 3min as well.

41 minutes ago, Supercharger said:

And in case of an emergency its up to the pilot to decide if he wants to get trouble because of an shooting enemy or an worn out seized engine.

The limits where mainly in place to conserve the engines service life, as those aero engines did not come by cheap (especially when you have to factor in some 20ish hours of fuel consumption on the bench and in the air to run and fly the engine in, before they are rated operational, for the notorious low on fuel luftwaffe especially).

I do not argue for an unlimited use of the Start&Notleistung

(though in game logic set up by the devs could argue exactly that, as they go strictly by the manuals. this is why I was asking whether anyone has seen the 1min limit mentioned),

but against that artificial 1min limit.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by the_emperor

[the_emperor]

though the manuals dont state a time limit, but say for emergency only / short duration, the He-177 manuals with the DB610 (two DB605a bolted together) tell us what that could mean in minutes (spoiler: its three):

From He 177 A-3 Flugzeug Handbuch Teil 7 Triebwerksanlage (p. 13, August 1943):

 

From Vorlaufige Flugstrecke He 177 A-3/R2 (November 1943, p. 5)

 

 

 

[tomgor]

Talking of Me 410 performance, how about its single-engine performance? Any reliable sources? Was the Me 410 equipped with feathering props? I believe so, at least I have found this picture of a Me 210 prototype with her left prop feathered - see below:



Therefore it looks to me like something is wrong with prop feathering in Me 410 in the game. It does not work at all when I use LCtrl+F, which feathers props in Ju 88, He 111, Bf 110, P-38, Mosquito or A-20 with no issues (with exception of Pe-2 for obvious reasons). This must have been a bug or I do something wrong, and it deteriorates that long awaited and much desired Me 410 fun, at least for me. As a temporary measure I set 100% high prop pitch, to decrease prop rpm and windmilling prop drag, but this is a poor substitute...

Edited September 15, 2022 by tomgor

[JG4_Widukind]

is there a orginal Turn Diagram from Me 410 ?

This plane is stalling by around 300km/h in hard turns... its a bit to early i think.

[the_emperor]

17 hours ago, tomgor said:

Talking of Me-410 performance, how about its single-engine performance? Any reliable sources? Was the Me-410 equipped with feathering props?

 

 

From the DB603a Motoren-Handbuch.

[tomgor]

On 9/13/2022 at 8:08 AM, the_emperor said:

 

 

From the DB603a Motoren-Handbuch.

Many thanks - so we have made at least this thing clear.

The question remaining is HOW in real life prop was set to feather position. In the IL2 game the design of rocker switches to manually set prop pitch are different in Bf 110 and Me 410. The former has a separate "feather" position at the very bottom (in addition to higher rpm/neutral/lower rpm above), while this control in IL2's Me 410 is missing the feather position. In other words is the "IL 2Sturmovik" representation of the Me 410 cockpit true? And the only way to set feathering prop pitch in real Me 410 was to push the rocker switch to increase prop pitch until it reaches maximum, without having separate "instant-action" prop feathering control?  Is there any Me 410 manual to clarify it?

Someone suggested to use manual prop pitch control in Me 410 to increase pitch to 100% resulting in feather position, and that it was probably the way to do it in real Me 410. Somehow I find it difficult to agree with. The issue is it takes quite a lot of time, and - what is worse - even at 100% the pitch is still lower than feather pitch, resulting in approx. 600 rpm windmilling and much higher drag than that for feathered prop (even though it seems to be unrealistically low in IL2). In real life such drag can be sufficient to make difference between ability to maintain altitude (or even slightly climb at low altitudes) and need to descent to maintain safe speed (Vyse, and always more than Vmca).

Prop feathering key command (default: LCtrl+F) works in both versions of Bf 110 and indeed results in higher propeller pitch (feather pitch) than maximum achievable with manual prop pitch control only (100%) and its use actually puts prop in feather position. But there is no reaction to prop feathering key command (default: LCtrl+F) in Me 410 and the maximum achievable value of prop pitch is only 100% using manual prop pitch control, and not the feather prop pitch value.

Edited September 15, 2022 by tomgor

[tomgor]

Interesting thing is that in the IL-2 BOS Viewer, when animation of Me 410 is played, one can observe the props to reach feathering pitch, which is impossible to obtain in the game. Only 100% high pitch can be observed, which is available with manual prop pitch control, but this pitch is visibly lower than the feathered prop pitch. It looks to me like the devs forgot the complete the prop feathering job during the Me 410 development...