Developer Diary #325 - Discussion

[Trooper117]

I really enjoyed the video... the aircraft looks great.

However, what we didn't see is just how effective those rear facing guns are when on the defensive... (or not, as the case may be)

[CUJO_1970]

Wow, that really is impressive - the interior is incredible, what a complex aircraft to model. The 410 looks like the pinnacle of BoN aircraft 3D modelling, even more complex than the Arado. Who knew the 410 would end up stealing the show? It really is gorgeous.

 

Well, done can't wait to fly it.

[Avimimus]

2 minutes ago, CUJO_1970 said:

Wow, that really is impressive - the interior is incredible, what a complex aircraft to model. The 410 looks like the pinnacle of BoN aircraft 3D modelling, even more complex than the Arado. Who knew the 410 would end up stealing the show? It really is gorgeous.

 

Well, done can't wait to fly it.

 

Well, I kind-of did. I'd ruled it out as being very unlikely due to the complexity... when they announce BoN I was a bit stunned and rather excited.

 

It is also worth noting that - if one looks at the product description - they wrote that they would try to produce these aircraft, but that they might have to cancel one (and substitute it with another)... so they deliberately made it clear that the plane-list wasn't final... so, yes, quite the accomplishment.

Edited July 29, 2022 by Avimimus

[Chief_Mouser]

Lovely model, crappy airplane. No-one's going to want to fly it (apart from us masochists) when there are Spits and Ponys about.

[DBFlyguy]

45 minutes ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

IIRC, total Mustang fodder.

 

But lovely work as always.

 

 

 Pretty much ?Or almost any single engine fighter for that matter....

 

 

But it looks like a the devs put a ton of work went into it, I'm just glad to see BON is slowly but surely wrapping up, hopefully the map and career aren't too much further out.

[Jade_Monkey]

49 minutes ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

IIRC, total Mustang fodder.

 

But lovely work as always.

 

Yup, it's a beautiful plane with really cool features, but being a good dogfighter should not be an expectation. 

[Avimimus]

36 minutes ago, 216th_Cat said:

Lovely model, crappy airplane. No-one's going to want to fly it (apart from us masochists) when there are Spits and Ponys about.

 

Yeah, but I'm still finding the Ju-88C6 is the aircraft from BoN I fly the most (although I have done a lot of sightseeing in the Arado recently). So it'll definitely have an audience.

[LuftManu]

Lovely aircraft! Indeed. I never have tought that we would fly a Me 410 in GB when this journey started on that Lapino Map and the LaGG-3! ?

Now, the wait will kill me! Thankfully, I have something to do to entertain myself... ?

 

[Pozsgay]

1 hour ago, DBFlyguy said:

Pretty much ?Or almost any single engine fighter for that matter...

Nine Soviet Yak-9 fighters thought the same as they attacked a single Hungarian Me 210 Ca-1 (technically Me 410 fuselage with DB 605 engines and a bit different wings). My grandfather was the gunner and the pilot had eight years experience, maybe more than the fighters together ? Two of the Yaks were shot down in two minutes, the other seven cancelled their attack.

 

The Me 410 was forced in different role than originally planned and as bomber interceptor heavily outnumbered really unsuccessful. But this is a simulation, we will see how it works here.

 

I will be surely one of the masochists who fly that bird. ?

 

(The illustration - the Old Tiger - was made by me and used as cover for my comic book with the same title.)

[I./JG1_Baron]

3 hours ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

IIRC, total Mustang fodder.

 

But lovely work as always.

 

I wouldn't be sure about it. Frontal attack against the ME-410 is really suicide and the tail gunner has VERY unpleasant machine guns with a relatively wide field of shooting. He can shoot UNDER the plane as well. Is extremly dangerous especially if have Me-410 any player as a tailgunner and the attacker attacks from behind like to a regular BF-110. Tested in both SP and MP - I was on my own bad luck in P -51B becouse I sniffed a light prey. Well, my bad (but honestly - Mustang burns sooo beautifully ?) So I wouldn't underestimate Me-410 very much.

 

I agree - work is really lovely. IMO one the most beautifull plane in the game.

Edited July 29, 2022 by I./JG1_Baron

[Rjel]

6 minutes ago, I./JG1_Baron said:

 

I wouldn't be sure about it. Frontal attack against the ME-410 is really suicide and the tail gunner has VERY unpleasant machine guns with a relatively wide field of shooting. He can shoot UNDER the plane as well. Is extremly dangerous especially if have Me-410 any player as a tailgunner and the attacker attacks from behind like to a regular BF-110. Tested in both SP and MP - I was on my own bad luck in P -51B becouse I sniffed a light prey. Well, my bad (but honestly - Mustang burns sooo beautifully ?) So I wouldn't underestimate Me-410 very much.

But, how does the same gunner aim accurately UNDER the plane?

[LuftManu]

10 minutes ago, Rjel said:

But, how does the same gunner aim accurately UNDER the plane?

The Barbettes and placement of the sights for the rear gunner (Canpoy bulge) made him able to peek below the aircraft 

 

I agree with @I./JG1_Baron. The Me 410 might be one of the most difficult planes to attack from six as you can be shot down even from below the aircraft.

PS: Don't forget that you can aim 80º upwards with the Mg 131 too! That makes some nasty and improvised Schräge Musik and I can't wait to see how it fares. Some real Lancaster shot downs were performed in this way by the V./KG2

Edited July 29, 2022 by PA_LuftManu

[Rjel]

8 minutes ago, PA_LuftManu said:

The Barbettes and placement of the sights for the rear gunner (Canpoy bulge) made him able to peek below the aircraft 

 

 

It's a sleek looking plane to be sure. From the view shown, it looks like from the 5 or 7 o'clock the gunner could get a bead on an attacker. Six o'clock low would still be a blind spot. It'll be an interesting target to attack. Looking forward to it.

[Lusekofte]

Another one I will get fried in.

Unlike DCS it is cheaper to die in

[Mm1ut1]

Me(at) on the table. 
But heck yeah I can’t wait to fly one ! 

[Asgar]

3 hours ago, CUJO_1970 said:

Who knew the 410 would end up stealing the show?

I did?

[JonRedcorn]

I'd love to hear some news about the new fuel system modeling if that's still being worked on. I think I am most excited for that honestly, anything to make this sim deeper mechanic wise I am all about. I'd love to see a new engine damage modeling system some time in the future as well, one similar to cliffs of dover would be so cool.

 

The 410 does indeed look great as well though!

Edited July 29, 2022 by JonRedcorn

[MurrayCod]

absolutely visually stunning.  well done to the team.  

[DBFlyguy]

1 hour ago, Pozsgay said:

Nine Soviet Yak-9 fighters thought the same as they attacked a single Hungarian Me 210 Ca-1 (technically Me 410 fuselage with DB 605 engines and a bit different wings). My grandfather was the gunner and the pilot had eight years experience, maybe more than the fighters together ? Two of the Yaks were shot down in two minutes, the other seven cancelled their attack.

 

The Me 410 was forced in different role than originally planned and as bomber interceptor heavily outnumbered really unsuccessful. But this is a simulation, we will see how it works here.

 

I will be surely one of the masochists who fly that bird. ?

 

(The illustration - the Old Tiger - was made by me and used as cover for my comic book with the same title.)

 

Definitely a very interesting story about your grandfather!!! Would definitely be interested in hearing more of his history in the forums!

 

That type of instance is the definition of very rare though.  The mass majority of the time when heavy fighters crossed single engine fighters, single engine fighters come out on top, unless there is some outlying factor like a very large experience gap between the opponents come into play which seems to be in this case.  I own the Hungarian Aces volume from Osprey's Aircraft of the Aces series, it's definitely an interesting read for a "lesser known" air force of the war. 

 

Hopefully we someday we get a AI B-17 or B-24 so the 110, 88C and 410 have some more appropriate aerial targets to fly against

[Canvas25]

@Pozsgay Superb artwork. Kudos!

[Praetorious]

I bet my computer will crash the day it comes out,lol, pure torture. 

[Avimimus]

2 hours ago, PA_LuftManu said:

The Barbettes and placement of the sights for the rear gunner (Canpoy bulge) made him able to peek below the aircraft 

 

I agree with @I./JG1_Baron. The Me 410 might be one of the most difficult planes to attack from six as you can be shot down even from below the aircraft.

PS: Don't forget that you can aim 80º upwards with the Mg 131 too! That makes some nasty and improvised Schräge Musik and I can't wait to see how it fares. Some real Lancaster shot downs were performed in this way by the V./KG2

 

Ah, if you were part of the Royal Airforce's command structure you could've just come up with the requirement for the Boulton-Paul Defiant!

[ShamrockOneFive]

2 hours ago, Asgar said:

I did?

Your moment is fast approaching

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

I am looking forward to flying this, I mean a lot.

[tattywelshie]

6 hours ago, Avimimus said:

 

Ah, if you were part of the Royal Airforce's command structure you could've just come up with the requirement for the Boulton-Paul Defiant!

Now that is a plane I’d love to fly, together with the equally maligned Fairey Battle! 

[fergal69]

Looking good ?

 

After the BF110, the ME410 is my favourite plane. Its nice to see a developer making such a plane that's others would sway away from.

[Lusekofte]

1 hour ago, fergal69 said:

Looking good ?

 

After the BF110, the ME410 is my favourite plane. Its nice to see a developer making such a plane that's others would sway away from.

They shall have that credit. Po 2, JU 52 and C 47, proves that. 

It reflect what kind of customers they have.

I do not think we are easy to deal with, yet they do what we want. Still I liked the DD before. The settings can be put on specific planes. Too me this is a heap of pixels like all others.

Dedicated settings is the winner

[Pozsgay]

13 hours ago, DBFlyguy said:

 

Definitely a very interesting story about your grandfather!!! Would definitely be interested in hearing more of his history in the forums!

 

That type of instance is the definition of very rare though.  The mass majority of the time when heavy fighters crossed single engine fighters, single engine fighters come out on top, unless there is some outlying factor like a very large experience gap between the opponents come into play which seems to be in this case.  I own the Hungarian Aces volume from Osprey's Aircraft of the Aces series, it's definitely an interesting read for a "lesser known" air force of the war. 

 

Hopefully we someday we get a AI B-17 or B-24 so the 110, 88C and 410 have some more appropriate aerial targets to fly against

Thank You!

My comic book about this mission was published by Paquet https://www.editionspaquet.com/catalogue-bd/old-tiger in French language this May (it is available in Hungarian too). Dutch edition is on the way, and there are more languages planned.

Hungarian aircrew really liked their Me 210 Ca-1 fast bombers. They said they were much more afraid of air defenses than of fighters. They fought often with Soviet Yak and Lavochkin fighters successfully despite being outnumbered. 

On that specific mission on 1944. 10. 23. a total of 8 Me 210 took off from Ferihegy. Due fuel shortage no fighter escort was assigned. The first flight of 4 from 102/1 "Eagle" fast bomber squadron and the second flight from 102/2 "Tiger" fast bomber squadron was ordered to attack Soviet trains and tanks in Orosháza. The last to take off was usually the "Old Tiger" as the high experienced pilot József Orbán was nicknamed with my grandfather as gunner (Z-094). As last plane they were the target for remaining AAA and for attacking fighters. After successfully bombing their target the third "Tiger" (Z-140) was attacked by two of the Yaks but after one engine got fire the fighters pulled toward to attack the last 210. The first Yak was shot down north from the target at 13:20 over Nagyszénás the second at 13:22 over Gádoros. Both victories were confirmed by a German Ju 188 long range recon (from Börgönd airbase).
The "Eagle" flight on its way home was attacked by 5 La-5 fighters, where one Lavochkin was shot down.
All Me 210s returned to base (two of them belly landed on the field due damaged landing gear hydraulic system). 

I know György Punka the author of the Hungarian Aces by Osprey in person and also Csaba B. Stenge the author of Forgotten Heroes by Helion is my friend. They helped a lot to create my book. I also created a lot of Royal Hungarian Air Force generic and historical skins for Il-2 I started to upload them to HSD too, but I need more time to continue

[EAF19_Marsh]

16 hours ago, I./JG1_Baron said:

 

I wouldn't be sure about it. Frontal attack against the ME-410 is really suicide and the tail gunner has VERY unpleasant machine guns with a relatively wide field of shooting. He can shoot UNDER the plane as well. Is extremly dangerous especially if have Me-410 any player as a tailgunner and the attacker attacks from behind like to a regular BF-110. Tested in both SP and MP - I was on my own bad luck in P -51B becouse I sniffed a light prey. Well, my bad (but honestly - Mustang burns sooo beautifully ?) So I wouldn't underestimate Me-410 very much.

 

I agree - work is really lovely. IMO one the most beautifull plane in the game.

 

Why in the almighty name of living, holy Hades would someone attack it from the front within the cone of its armament?

 

You don't think it was fodder? Read Don Caldwell and get back to me.

[I./JG1_Baron]

1 hour ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

Why in the almighty name of living, holy Hades would someone attack it from the front within the cone of its armament?

 

Because some masochists like to do it ?

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

Well, if I was this very game Dev after reading about noone will fly the 410 after many months of hard working, I would turn on the tail gunner god mode just to teach those people a little respect.   

[Avimimus]

10 hours ago, tattywelshie said:

Now that is a plane I’d love to fly, together with the equally maligned Fairey Battle! 

 

I actually set up a Defiant flight in Cliffs of Dover using the actual doctrine that was intended (i.e. a large flight of Defiants, flying in formation, approaching an enemy bomber stream from below) and they were a lot more effective than the same number of Hurricanes would be.

 

Four times the firepower of the He-111 they were fighting and a much smaller target, able to fire longer bursts than a Hurricane or Spitfire and then switch targets to engage more than one He-111 per pass... really shockingly effective. If it hadn't been for the existence of escort fighters our view of the Defiant might be completely different.

 

P.S. I wish Cliffs of Dover had a Fairey Battle too... at least as AI... maybe someone will do Battle of France someday?

[FoxbatRU]

6 часов назад, Pozsgay сказал:

On that specific mission on 1944. 10. 23.

It would be interesting to read Soviet documents on this subject.

[Pozsgay]

19 minutes ago, FoxbatRU said:

It would be interesting to read Soviet documents on this subject.

 

Yes, I would be interested too.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Would it be safe to say that Hungary built a better 410?

[LuftManu]

10 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Would it be safe to say that Hungary built a better 410?

Nah! I think they were used in a more appropiate role.

It came too late and too few. Add to the mix the appearing of the Mustangs in the escort role and everything you could send would become a cheese  (like it did)

The plane, when fixed in the late 210 and 410 versions had potential. For example, during the raids on British soil had somewhat success with losing a few planes before Steinbock. Furthermore, it's weaponry was really heavy but the Luftwaffe was in no position of using something that would be vulnerable from the sky on every sortie.

 

If we compare the 210 late / 410 against the 110 and 190 F/G in that "Light bomber" role against England, the 410 would benefit from a higher speed, better systems and twice the range if not more. Having the bombs in the bomb bay, the StuVi sight and a navigator made it good tactical choice. Even if it was forced to the Luftlotte to employ it after so many problems in its develpment.

 

In the 410 you had airbrakes to dive, altimeter automatic recovery, StuVi assisting sight, gunner was able to man the gun even in hard conditions using the barbettes (no need to pull the weight of a gun), better nose visibility, ability to carry gunpods in the bomb-bay and more.

 

In summary, it was not a better 110. It was heavier, but had more tactical choice with better weaponry, systems and range. 

Edited July 30, 2022 by PA_LuftManu

[6./ZG26_Custard]

The 410 is a beautiful aircraft and has been exceptionally modelled but unless it can fly the sort of missions it did during its operational history its not going to do much other than get shot down... a lot. If you could fly night bombing missions and bomber interception missions against heavies with cover from 109's dealing with the allied fighters it would be a fun aircraft to fly. But as others have pointed out it's going to be an aircraft for masochists and for the fighter boys Edit :- (and girls) to feel good about shooting down their 200th bomber online. 

Edited July 30, 2022 by 6./ZG26_Custard
See edit

[ImaginativeTruth]

Now that we have the Mosquito, Me 110G, Me410, Me 109 and Fw190 - could we have a nightfighter pack?

 

All we would need is a Lancaster or two and radar (and maybe a He219).

 

Not much work and we could have a Battle of Berlin Pack (If we had a B-17 and B-24...)

 

 

[BlitzPig_EL]

14 minutes ago, ImaginativeTruth said:

 

Not much work

 

 

 

[6./ZG26_Custard]

25 minutes ago, ImaginativeTruth said:

Now that we have the Mosquito, Me 110G, Me410, Me 109 and Fw190 - could we have a nightfighter pack?

 

All we would need is a Lancaster or two and radar (and maybe a He219).

 

Not much work and we could have a Battle of Berlin Pack (If we had a B-17 and B-24...)

To be honest that is a massive amount of work. I hope one day we see B-17's Lancs and other heavies, even if its just AI but I don't think it will happen for a long time if ever. I hope I'm wrong. Unfortunately, the 410 won't be able to do what a large part of its operational role was in the west (shooting down Heavy bombers) Maybe we might get some surprises when the next module is announced, who knows?