How to Adjust MFG Crosswind Toe Brake Tension

[JG27*AD]

Salute, All !!

 

Can someone give me the procedure to adjust the toe brake tension on the Crosswind Pedals?   I know there is a video out there in the interwebs, but for the life of me I can't find it.

Thanks.

 

AD

[unlikely_spider]

 

This one?

[BladeMeister]

Best combat sim rudder pedals in the world, and I haven't even installed the software upgrade yet.

 

S!Blade<><

Edited July 16, 2022 by BladeMeister

[JG27*AD]

That's the one !!!  Thank you very much,unlikely spider!!

 

Salute, AD

Addendum:  This is from the comments on the You Tube posting:

 

Milan Šimundža

3 years ago

Hi We do a bit tighter tolerance brake shafts now, sou you'll need a bit more force to pull the pedal on a side. However, since S/N 3730 (except for graphite pedals S/N 4000-4264) We instal new revision of brake axis springs on the pedals ! This is important becouse new spring is approx 10% stronger, but with a side effect...adjusting spring strenght ( as shown in video above) has very little effect on a new spring :-)...therefore, we can say brakes spring strenght is not adjustable...I mean, it is still adjustable but with very little effect so there is no point in making adjustments on it Sorry to dissapoint. Change was made as many users wanted a bit stronger brake force on pedals so we did it. Funny thing is that now few customers want weaker brakes ? So we may introduce weaker springs again as an option sometime in the future. P.S. New revision of the spring is also revisioned in size and shape a little, so it stand in more firmly and less squeeky ! Cheers Milan

 

Since my pedals are newer it looks like I'll just leave them alone.   Perhaps the change made to the springs is why Milan does not post this video with the other instruction ones.

 

AD

[1Sascha]

4 hours ago, BladeMeister said:

and I haven't even installed the software upgrade yet.

Err... software upgrade?

 

3 hours ago, JG27*AD said:

This is important becouse new spring is approx 10% stronger, but with a side effect...adjusting spring strenght ( as shown in video above) has very little effect on a new spring ?

Interesting... I did adjust the brakes on my V3 pedals to the middle position and there really wasn't much of a difference after I'd finished the adjustment. I thought they felt a bit tighter, but maybe I was imagining things - those brakes still feel pretty light to me with the new setting.

 

Good thing I found this comment, because I would've fiddled with that setting again to get a bit more resistance from the brakes. Guess the only thing left to do is wait for my dampening kit to arrive, install it and then I can just leave the pedals alone.

 

S.

[dburne]

3 minutes ago, 1Sascha said:

Err... software upgrade?

 

Interesting... I did adjust the brakes on my V3 pedals to the middle position and there really wasn't much of a difference after I'd finished the adjustment. I thought they felt a bit tighter, but maybe I was imagining things - those brakes still feel pretty light to me with the new setting.

 

Good thing I found this comment, because I would've fiddled with that setting again to get a bit more resistance from the brakes. Guess the only thing left to do is wait for my dampening kit to arrive, install it and then I can just leave the pedals alone.

 

S.

 

Yep you will love that damper with the Crosswinds no doubt.

[BladeMeister]

Just now, 1Sascha said:

Err... software upgrade?

I read of and downloaded a software/firmware update that doubles the original resolution of calibration for the pedal axis if not all of the axises.

 

S!Blade<><

[dburne]

2 minutes ago, BladeMeister said:

I read of and downloaded a software/firmware update that doubles the original resolution of calibration for the pedal axis if not all of the axises.

 

S!Blade<><

 

Yeah I grabbed that one some time ago. Not sure one can really feel the difference in going from "very precise" to "extremely precise"... lol.

Especially when my feet move - at a very low resolution.

Edited July 16, 2022 by dburne

[1Sascha]

10 hours ago, BladeMeister said:

I read of and downloaded a software/firmware update that doubles the original resolution of calibration for the pedal axis if not all of the axises.

Hmm... so what kind of resolution are you getting? I have 4096 on both brake axes and the rudder axis.

 

 

EDIT: Oops...

Quote

Now available for download and it is pre-installed in MFG Crosswind S/N 15636 onwards !

Since mine are 12681 (bought sometime in early May .. just how many of these things does he make/sell? LOL), I guess I could upgrade. I'm also still on V2.15 of the utility, not 2.17.

 

Quote

NEW – RESOLUTION IS NOW 13 BIT – 8192 positions instead of 12 bit 4096 positions.

 

 

https://mfg-sim.com/en/MFG -Blog/news/new-firmware-version-v509-as-well-as-mfg-configurator-v217

 

 

 

S.

Edited July 17, 2022 by 1Sascha

[BladeMeister]

14 hours ago, dburne said:

 

Yeah I grabbed that one some time ago. Not sure one can really feel the difference in going from "very precise" to "extremely precise"... lol.

Especially when my feet move - at a very low resolution.

What I do notice is that it is now harder to keep my pedals dead nuts center with the cam profile that I have installed, at least by the numbers in the 2.17 configurator tool. This may be partially due to my using the dampener? I have profile cam 4 & 6 on my desk so I am using profile cam 5 maybe? I am thinking on switching back to profile cam 6 as it has a much more defined center. What profile cams are you guys using if you use a dampener with your Crosswinds? DB?

 

S!Blade<><

Edited July 17, 2022 by BladeMeister

[1Sascha]

1 hour ago, BladeMeister said:

This may be partially due to my using the dampener? I have profile cam 4 & 6 on my desk so I am using profile cam 5 maybe? I am thinking on switching back to profile cam 6 as it has a much more defined center. What profile cams are you guys using if you use a dampener with your Crosswinds? DB?

Easy way to find out: Just take out the cam and look up its number - not sure if you can see it on an installed cam, I just did a quick check on mine and it might be hidden from view when installed. That said: AFAIK there are currently only three profiles available: 4, 5 and 6.

 

Can't comment on cam 5 because it wasn't included with my pedals and I've never used it, but I seem to remember that Milan said that cam 6 has more of a center detent than 4? I did swap them around a bit initially and am currently on cam 6 (spring on the inner notch, light to medium pre-tension on the spring) but the "dip" at the center is barely noticeable, IMO. It is there, yes, but it's very ...er... subdued? I still have to be a bit mindful as to where my feet/pedals are when I should be centered during a fight. Not sure if others have these weird moments when your body sort of "freezes" in an awkward position while you're concentrating really hard ... though to describe this behavior, but I feel like an idiot whenever I catch myself doing it.. ?

 

The difference between the two cams is more pronounced IMO when it comes to the end of travel. Cam 6 is a little easier to push to and hold at full deflection. My dampener is supposed to arrive in roughly three days, so I haven't had a chance to test the cams with it installed. I'm fairly certain I'll keep cam 6 for now, install the dampener, adjust it to my current spring-tension and see how I like the result. Otherwise I'll be spending another full night messing with all the settings, endlessly chasing "perfection" .. ?

 

 

1 hour ago, BladeMeister said:

What I do notice is that it is now harder to keep my pedals dead nuts center with the cam profile that I have installed

Hmm.. I did fear something like that when I read about the doubled resolution .... I think I'll skip the update for now for this reason, since I'm kinda getting used to the pedals' behavior around the center position with my current settings and the lower resolution.

 

S.

Edited July 17, 2022 by 1Sascha

[dburne]

1 hour ago, BladeMeister said:

What I do notice is that it is now harder to keep my pedals dead nuts center with the cam profile that I have installed, at least by the numbers in the 2.17 configurator tool. This may be partially due to my using the dampener? I have profile cam 4 & 6 on my desk so I am using profile cam 5 maybe? I am thinking on switching back to profile cam 6 as it has a much more defined center. What profile cams are you guys using if you use a dampener with your Crosswinds? DB?

 

S!Blade<><

 

I "think" I am using Cam6 not entirely sure though been a while. You can add a little dead zone to center and see if that helps. With the damper it is not going to  center perfectly each time.

[1Sascha]

20 minutes ago, dburne said:

With the damper it is not going to  center perfectly each time.

Hmm... sounds like an over-dampened setup then (or under-sprung? ). I had the same sort of issue on my Gladiator Evo where I went a bit too far with the dry-clutches and the stick wouldn't reliably return to dead-center when I let go of the grip at full deflection. Reduced the clutches/dampening in tiny steps until the stick would return to 0/0 every time.

 

S.

Edited July 17, 2022 by 1Sascha

[dburne]

8 hours ago, 1Sascha said:

Hmm... sounds like an over-dampened setup then (or under-sprung? ). I had the same sort of issue on my Gladiator Evo where I went a bit too far with the dry-clutches and the stick wouldn't reliably return to dead-center when I let go of the grip at full deflection. Reduced the clutches/dampening in tiny steps until the stick would return to 0/0 every time.

 

S.

 

Mine will not perfectly center each time, however I did install the soft spring as well. But like I say I just dial in a little deadzone to compensate for that.

[BladeMeister]

 

No Deadzone!!!

What are you kidding me DB? That is exactly why I bought my Crosswinds in the first place. No Deadzone or centering detent like my Saitek pedals had. I can't stand that in a Stick or Rudders! Drives me crazy. I keep my eye on the ball a good bit, but now I will just have to keep my eye on the ball even better and pay more attention to my feet position.

I am going to try this higher resolution out for a while, but I may go back to 4096 if I don't like it. Do you guys use the self calibrating option in the MSG Configurator? I have turned it off but since the update my toe brakes were a bit wonky with one or the other not zeroing out every time. I kept messing with it until I got it set right, applied it and ran for the hills. In DCS & IL2 it tests out correct so I guess I am good to go. Seriously though DB, from me to you, no DEADZONE. That is why we bought this high end $h!+ in the first place.

 

S!Blade<><

[1Sascha]

8 hours ago, dburne said:

Mine will not perfectly center each time, however I did install the soft spring as well. But like I say I just dial in a little deadzone to compensate for that.

Errr... why? I'd reduce the dampener's pre-tension (or even go back to the stock spring). Why would you spend extra money on super-precise sensors/axes only to reduce their sensitivity/efficiency via deadzones? That'd be a bit like buying a sophisticated hybrid car and then somehow rigging it to only use its ICE and never the electric part of its drive-train.

 

IMO and the way you describe it, you either have the dampener set too strong (over-dampened) or chosen the wrong spring (under-sprung). Ideally a dampener/spring combo should be perfectly matched in strength - dampener and spring shouldn't be "fighting" each other and/or one shouldn't over-power the other.

 

Plus a dampener should not take over the work of the spring - it should "only" make the spring's action less "bouncy" and more controlled. A good example for why we have dampeners are old fashioned horse-carts with their leaf-sprung (but undampened) driver benches.. they will sort of cushion hits but the result is a bouncing motion that will last for a while until the seat finally settles down. A properly adjusted dampener would eliminate or at least reduce that behavior by keeping the spring (and, in this case, the bench) from bouncing up and down after receiving a blow from the chassis/main body of the cart.

 

 

 

[dburne]

8 hours ago, BladeMeister said:

 

No Deadzone!!!

What are you kidding me DB? That is exactly why I bought my Crosswinds in the first place. No Deadzone or centering detent like my Saitek pedals had. I can't stand that in a Stick or Rudders! Drives me crazy. I keep my eye on the ball a good bit, but now I will just have to keep my eye on the ball even better and pay more attention to my feet position.

I am going to try this higher resolution out for a while, but I may go back to 4096 if I don't like it. Do you guys use the self calibrating option in the MSG Configurator? I have turned it off but since the update my toe brakes were a bit wonky with one or the other not zeroing out every time. I kept messing with it until I got it set right, applied it and ran for the hills. In DCS & IL2 it tests out correct so I guess I am good to go. Seriously though DB, from me to you, no DEADZONE. That is why we bought this high end $h!+ in the first place.

 

S!Blade<><

 

Lol ok ok.

I am still trying to figure out if I am riding in a horse and buggy or driving an electric car without the electric...

I will increase my soft spring tension some until I can get rid of that tiny bit of deadzone.

 

I do not use the self calibration, I manually calibrate in the MFG software once and done.

Edited July 18, 2022 by dburne

[BladeMeister]

1 hour ago, dburne said:

 

Lol ok ok.

I am still trying to figure out if I am riding in a horse and buggy or driving an electric car without the electric...

I will increase my soft spring tension some until I can get rid of that tiny bit of deadzone.

 

I do not use the self calibration, I manually calibrate in the MFG software once and done.

Hey, whatever gets you there in a comfortable way. I was just yanking your chain, not calling you out Sir. Whatever works for you is best. For me getting rid of the X52 dead spot in the middle of the stick movement with the T16000m first, for years of good service(a great stick for the price: best IMHO for a newbie, never once had a problem with it) and now with my VKB GF III was crucial. Having that play or integrated dead spot at the centered position of my joystick, or like I said the center of my pedal throw(that fricking ball detent of Saitek pedals) always really hampered my sim flying and bothered me. Seeing the high resolution precision from both the VKB and the Crosswinds throughout their entire movement range, especially at the centered position of both, is one main reason I am so pleased with each piece of hardware. If your wallet can stand it, and Combat Flight Simming is your passion, then I highly recommend seeking out the best Hardware. Only having experienced what I own, I will not slight any other hardware as I am sure there is other brands that produce quality precision and lasting value.  Having said that, here is a heads up on Reflected's review of the WinWing F16EX. He really likes the stick and even says it is amazing and would buy a throttle from them should his Warthog bite the dust, but see 13:00 and 19:20 for two aspects that he reviewed as bad. I am not bashing this hardware, and maybe there is a simple fix for these two seemingly problematic aspects? For me the center dead response, play, would be a no go for me, and losing 10 FPS in DCS wouldn't work for me either. Just putting this out there for possible future buyers of this stick. No disrespect intended to current owners. It's FYI only.

 

Reflect's WinWing F16EX Review

 

S!Blade<><

Edited July 18, 2022 by BladeMeister

[dburne]

Well I had to put the stiffer spring in and really crank in on the tension adjustment, I have it a lot closer now but still not perfect. It will not return exactly to a dead nuts centered 50% position, but it is within 1% now. But really the pedals now require more force than I am used to and not sure I am going to like that.

Will have to fly some and see I reckon. 

@BladeMeister - yeah I know you were just yankin LOL no offense taken at all.

Edited July 18, 2022 by dburne

[dburne]

Well seems no matter what I do I can not get these things to center perfectly at 0% on the rZ axis. I am just going to adjust the spring/damper to what feels good to me and not worry with it. Nothing wrong with having a small dead zone to help compensate for it.

[1Sascha]

1 hour ago, dburne said:

Well I had to put the stiffer spring in and really crank in on the tension adjustment, I have it a lot closer now but still not perfect. It will not return exactly to a dead nuts centered 50% position, but it is within 1% now. But really the pedals now require more force than I am used to and not sure I am going to like that.

Will have to fly some and see I reckon. 

Unacceptable... try harder, dammit!

 

Although... this kinda worries me now, since I don't like my pedals too stiff myself. Isn't there like a low setting on the dampener where it'll barely do any..err.. dampening? Or do the pedals become super stiff no matter what once I install the kit?

 

 

 

S.

Edited July 18, 2022 by 1Sascha

[BladeMeister]

Hey DB, give us some feedback in a week or two please, or an hour or two!!! Cranking up my original spring didn't make that big of a difference with the centering, and I definitely didn't like the harder push needed to move the pedals. To defend my two day test(yes I am going against what I write further down) I had my Crosswinds setup with high spring pressure and the #6 Cam(more positive center profile) for a couple of years and then tried the # 5 Cam(much less centering profile and curve) and recently added the dampener. I found that I like the looser feel, letting the dampener(10-12 clicks for me) cushion the movement, so that I can drive the pedals rather than try to work against the high spring return force. I HAVE NO DEADZONE! LMAO!!! To me that gives better precision, not to mention that actual rudders in RL planes(my experience from a 1941 Stearman) have no centering spring or detent at all. My Crosswinds setup, again for me, gives me the best fine rudder movement, especially during ground strafing. Again, this just screams to me, "KEEP YOUR EYE ON THE BALL TO CENTER YOUR PEDDLES AND COORDINATE TURNS" which was preached as sacred in the procedure of flying a war bird in a coordinated manner. Just food for thought for some that use a heavy spring. You never know until you try something. The caveat being that one needs to try something for a couple of weeks before passing judgment, because most always the initial reaction to change is dislike for the new unfamiliar feelings, feedback and perceived inefficiency. Given a little bit of actual use over a couple of weeks(me changing to # 5 Cam and a looser spring) I can always formulate a more efficient comparison between different setups. My most outstanding example would be when I first purchased rudder pedals, Saitek Pro? I Hated them for 3 weeks, then I wouldn't let them go if I had to. Then I graduated to MFG Crosswinds and now I would fight you for them.

No seriously, don't touch my Crosswinds MF!!!

Here is a little video of my second gun run(second ever flight in the P38 since it was first released) in the P38 and I think you can see the precision of waggling the guns about in a tight weave to cover that train with my 50 cals and 20mm. It wreaked havoc on the poor train. Anyway, I will shut up now.

 

P38 Gun Run

 

Edit: I am now starting to wonder if we should dial our dampener to zero before calibrating the Crosswinds in the configurator? Seems like we probably should? Also, is configurator really a word, or is that something Milan just made up? Spell check keeps underlining it?

 

S!Blade<><

Edited July 18, 2022 by BladeMeister

[dburne]

Still playing with my adjustments but can not come up with anything that will give me exact center of 50% every time.

However I am pretty happy with what I have , with a small deadzone in game it does not have a negative effect. If others can get theirs to return to exact center every time you are doing better than I can.

Edited July 18, 2022 by dburne

[1Sascha]

3 hours ago, dburne said:

If others can get theirs to return to exact center every time you are doing better than I can.

I'll let you know once DPD finally delivers the kit. Tracking's been stuck in Split for days now and only today did the status on MFG's site change from "handling" to "shipped". Pretty much what happened last time though. Took exactly seven days when I ordered the pedals from day of purchase (both Wednesdays too by coincidence) until delivery. So... day after tomorrow, hopefully..

 

S.

[1Sascha]

Quote

We are processing your parcel on a special lane as it does not conform to our standards

Hmm... seems to be stuck in Austria ATM. What is going on there? It's just a silly little dampener in a cardboard box AFAIK ... weird.

 

 

[1Sascha]

Tadaaa!

 

 

Only just threw that thing on there and it has transformed the pedals' feel. Not sure if it's for the better or worse, since I'll only be able to fly with it in a few hours. For now, I've set the dampener to the lowest possible setting and still had to up my spring tension by quite a bit to match the dampening force. What it does seem to do however is make the center position more pronounced without making it feel like a notch or detent. You just seem to feel more clearly when the pedals are centered.

 

And now I'll have to re-learn my rudder yet again, I guess, since this kit really makes the pedals feel very differently.

 

Looking at the pic, I also realized I should clean off my pedals more often and probably smoke a bit less at my PC .. ?

 

 

 

S.

[dburne]

12 minutes ago, 1Sascha said:

Tadaaa!

 

 

Only just threw that thing on there and it has transformed the pedals' feel. Not sure if it's for the better or worse, since I'll only be able to fly with it in a few hours. For now, I've set the dampener to the lowest possible setting and still had to up my spring tension by quite a bit to match the dampening force. What it does seem to do however is make the center position more pronounced without making it feel like a notch or detent. You just seem to feel more clearly when the pedals are centered.

 

And now I'll have to re-learn my rudder yet again, I guess, since this kit really makes the pedals feel very differently.

 

Looking at the pic, I also realized I should clean off my pedals more often and probably smoke a bit less at my PC .. ?

 

 

 

S.

 

Congrats!!

Btw I only smoke outside. Been that way for me for a few years now. Reckon I could get a lot more flying in if I did not, but I need those breaks anyways lol.

[1Sascha]

7 minutes ago, dburne said:

Btw I only smoke outside. Been that way for me for a few years now. Reckon I could get a lot more flying in if I did not, but I need those breaks anyways lol.

Yeah... I know... I usually don't smoke indoors any more, but circumstances make it sometimes necessary ... ?

 

I also understand better now what your issue was re centering. I didn't imagine the dampener would be this strong even on the lowest setting. Turned it towards minus until it wouldn't click any more and it's still pretty damn strong...

 

It's so strong in fact that I'll have to use an additional rubberized coaster for my chair. One of those was enough before, but now it won't hold all the time when I push the pedals to full deflection. I guess I need lockable casters ... ?

 

S.

Edited July 21, 2022 by 1Sascha

[dburne]

6 minutes ago, 1Sascha said:

Yeah... I know... I usually don't smoke indoors any more, but circumstances make it sometimes necessary ... ?

 

I also understand better now what your issue was re centering. I didn't imagine the dampener would be this strong even on the lowest setting. Turned it towards minus until it wouldn't click any more and it's still pretty damn strong...

 

It's so strong in fact that I'll have to use an additional rubberized coaster for my chair. One of those was enough before, but now it won't hold all the time when I push the pedals to full deflection. I guess I need lockable casters ... ?

 

S.

 

Lockable castors is what I did, I replaced all the wheels in my chair with them but only have to lock a couple, But nice to have all 5 wheels lockable so I don't have to move my chair around to be able to lock a couple of them.

[1Sascha]

On 7/21/2022 at 2:15 PM, dburne said:

Lockable castors is what I did, I replaced all the wheels in my chair with them but only have to lock a couple, But nice to have all 5 wheels lockable so I don't have to move my chair around to be able to lock a couple of them.

Yeah... I'm currently trying to find out what size casters/studs my chair has... plenty of lockable caster-sets on amazon, but I don't want to order multiple sizes just to try which ones fit.

 

Of course, there are these:

 

which are meant for my chair, but they've been out of stock for months now ..

 

Edit: Bit the bullet and just ordered these:

 

...for 23 EUR. Little worried about the height they'll add to the chair (roughly 30mm I reckon) and that it might mess up my central mount setup, but those type of casters were the only ones I could find with a brake/lock-out function (set contains five, two of which have brakes). I all else fails I'll have to remove everything from my desk (major operation, sadly) and raise the desktop-height by 20mm. Those rubberized coasters work, but the one I've been using is starting to disintegrate, leaving ugly skid-marks on the floor, so ..

 

We'll see what happens ... ?

 

 

 

S.

Edited July 26, 2022 by 1Sascha