Are the pilot deaths during a slow landing rollover being looked at?

[Patricks]

I'm no expert but i've read enough accounts (reading "Mount of Aces: The R.A.F. S.E.5A" ATM) to know many of these crashes happened and the percentage of fatalities was low. I think for my experience (maybe 30 rollovers on landing) i've died about 90% of the time and "crash-landed" (survived) the rest, sure seems like it should be set to use speed, AoA, etc. to decide damage, is it?

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

It's not right for sure. Devs are quiet about that issue...

[Billsponge1972]

Sometime back there was clamoring about how every crash landing was survivable and they fixed it. I think it's a case of their damned if they do and damned if they don't. I personally crash landed and survived many times. I think they've struck a good balance. I don't think they're going to revisit this in the near future.

[SCG_motoadve]

10 minutes ago, Billsponge1972 said:

Sometime back there was clamoring about how every crash landing was survivable and they fixed it. I think it's a case of their damned if they do and damned if they don't. I personally crash landed and survived many times. I think they've struck a good balance. I don't think they're going to revisit this in the near future.

I agree with you, it is very survivable if done right, much better than the arcade way it was before, where you survived no matter what, I don't mind it honestly.

I am more concern about all the fires and explosions giving an arcade feel to the Il2 series.

Planes have no durability.

Just as an example, a couple of MG hits to a B26 starts a fire an it explodes and breaks in half, time after time.

 

[firdimigdi]

24 minutes ago, SCG_motoadve said:

very survivable if done right

 

Pray tell, since this is the FC subforum, what is the right way of rolling over a WW1 plane other than "don't roll it over"? It's not like you can do a belly landing with them.

 

And while we are on it, rolling over/flipping a plane I can see how it can be fatal. Why are ground loops fatal on occassion since the update that brought these changes?

Edited July 13, 2022 by Firdimigdi

[JGr2/J5_Hotlead]

Perhaps it may be right for WW2, but in WW1, it definitely is too extreme: 

Last week

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1528178881

6 months ago

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1252692766

9 months ago

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1185650573

 

I fly FC regularly and make a point of landing very carefully usually. The issue is that any slight error ends with an abrupt death. Meanwhile in real life, Lothar von Richthofen survived this: 

 

He was seriously injured and had to have his jaw wired shut, but he lived. 
 

Or look at this excerpt from a letter Georges Guynemer wrote: 

 

"...the trees of the Hesse forest came in sight; in fact, they seemed to approach at a dizzy rate of speed. I switched off so as not to catch fire, and a few meters before reaching the trees I nosed up my machine with all my strength so that it would fall flat. There was a terrible shock! One tree higher than the rest broke my right wings, and made me turn as if I were on a pivot. I closed my eyes. There was a second shock, less violent than I could have hoped: the machine fell on its nose like a stone, at the foot of the tree which had stopped me. I... let myself slip onto the ground, amazed not to be suffering intense agony. The only bad effects were that my hand was heavy, and blood was flowing through my mask. I breathed, coughed, and shook my arms and legs, and was dumbfounded to find that all my faculties functioned normally..."

 

Perhaps he sensationalized it a bit for the benefit of his audience back home, but still the fact remains: he was hit by AA, fell out of control, crashed, and somehow escaped with only minor injuries. He was back in the cockpit shortly afterwards. 
 

Pilots absolutely were killed in crashes during WW1. The issue is that many also were merely wounded by lesser crashes. And many crawled out from their tipped planes with nothing more than an embarrassed grin on their faces. In FC as it stands now, there are no small accidents. Nearly all accidents are fatal. (Interesting side note: I’ve found somehow the Camel does not usually kill its pilot if it tips over on landing. Not sure why. ?)
 

I love FC as a simulator; but in trying to look at the history in unbiased fashion, the insta-deaths or heavy woundings on a simple bounce don’t seem to be accurate. 
 

I would highly recommend tweaking this issue to be more realistic. I think of past successes like the excessive control rod jamming that, when tweaked, became a well-implemented form of damage that Rise of Flight did not offer. 

Edited July 13, 2022 by JG1_Hotlead_J10

[Patricks]

Rolling down the grass at about 25MPH and having the plane stand on its nose is not a fatal situation, so it is simply not done well in this game. 

Edited July 13, 2022 by Patricks

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

Possibly related...possible I really suck at landings, but it seems like since the last update, almost every time I land, (even the really gentle, smooth landings), result in "landing gear repairing".   The real kicker, is that it takes a really long time to repair.  Longer than I have patience to wait for.

 

New bug?

[US103_Baer]

Nosing into a tent?s guy rope while taxiing at 1mph shouldn't be fatal! Is ridiculous

[ST_Catchov]

Is it just that WWII updates exaggerate behaviour in WW1 ? Back in the olden days before so many (WWII) updates things were better. To have FC independent of WWII on a standalone platform with a dedicated team devoted only to FC would help. But I am dreaming and will awaken shortly.

[BraveSirRobin]

38 minutes ago, ST_Catchov said:

Is it just that WWII updates exaggerate behaviour in WW1 ? 

Pilots are dying much too easily now ditching WW2 aircraft, so it probably has nothing to do with that.

[NO.20_Krispy_Duck]

The glass pilot is a widespread complaint in the WWII MP servers as well as in FC MP. I flew a WWII MP mission last night and the now-familiar advice "jump, don't ditch" was discussed. There's a frustration that has built about the issue. In a way, it's a replay of the G-blackout issue where it was added in an over-the-top way, pilots were blacking out all the time, and then had to be trimmed back. Hopefully the glass pilot issue will be similarly reduced in a future release.

[6./ZG26_Loke]

In FC and the IL2 Series, none of them would have survived. 

 

 

[ST_Catchov]

We need FC Collector Barns.

[No.10_Ace_Ivo]

Hi everyone, here the wingtip of my Camel hit a building with a little touch while taxiing through the streets of Amiens, the pilot died instantly and the engine is still running... 
In the other screenshots I ditched my DH4 at quite a high speed, gunner died instantly and the pilot could walk away without a scratch.
There is something completely off about this, really hope it gets fixed.

[JGr2/J5_Klugermann]

On 7/13/2022 at 1:20 PM, RNAS10_Mitchell said:

Possibly related...possible I really suck at landings, but it seems like since the last update, almost every time I land, (even the really gentle, smooth landings), result in "landing gear repairing".   The real kicker, is that it takes a really long time to repair.  Longer than I have patience to wait for.

 

New bug?

 

Ground crew is deciding what type of shock absorber  to install.

[NO.20_Krispy_Duck]

Good points above about those incidents and accounts of early aircraft. There is also 1980s era interview with Tom Sopwith, and when the interviewer asked about crashes, Sopwith noted that in early aircraft that they often didn't crash with such force as later.

 

A lot of this early stuff is anecdotal and subjective, given it's from the period of 1910-30, but it is still good evidence. Get it to a point where people generally agree it "feels balanced" after reading the period accounts, and go with it. Yes, that's subjective in large part, but at least it is an improvement over the status quo.

 

I agree with the point about de-coupling the WW1 aspect as much as is possible from the WW2. That is likely more difficult to do than it sounds, but this problem feels so similar to the blackout problems and control loss problem that plagued FC awhile back: there's an update and suddenly something that was not an issue before is a big problem. People complain, a long time passes, and then eventually it is improved. We just seem to keep going through that process.

Edited July 20, 2022 by NO.20_Krispy_Duck

[SeaW0lf]

Reading the book about the Schuckert, it was a difficult aircraft to land apparently, especially in a three-point landing. After the armistice, the first three Allied pilots who landed the Schuckert turned upside down. They grounded the plane until further notice. But nothing is said about whether the pilots died or not, which leads to the belief that they survived? Does anyone know anything about it? Last week I flipped on landing, at low speed, and died instantly. Back in the days I could have expected to survive. Not anymore.

 

About these controversial updates, what intrigues me is why the algorithms can’t be nerfed until the problem is solved / researched? Because it is better to err on the side of less than of more, since the latter could mean an unplayable variable to the game. The damage FM model data is so vast, including accidents, bullet impacts, G-forces, even misfires (which seem to have gotten worse consistently). Each of these algorithms are combat-critical, meaning that a highly controversial update that is left unattended causes several players to leave the game, sometimes a lot of them.

 

Which leads me to think that the most rational approach would be to roll back the numbers whenever the community is reasonably complains until they find out what happened. Just release a hotfix. This gives developers room to find a balance in the numbers. Because, for example, in misfires, sometimes the opponent is perfectly in your sights and the machine guns misfires two, three times on the same bounce, sometimes several times in the same fight. So why not temporarily nerf misfires heavily until you understand what's going on? Just be upfront about it.

 

Well, my two cents. I'm just trying to help.

[Patricks]

I've actually mapped a button to reload and hit it now automatically when I enter the plane, just before engaging, and several times during a fight. It costs me 1 round in each gun each time, but that's what needs to be done if you want to have bullets come out when you pull the trigger... until it's addressed.

[Enceladus828]

@Jason_Williams In regards to SeaW0lf’s post, please roll the numbers back to what they were in Update 4.604 as 4.605 (when the AQMB was added) appears to be when ditching in the field, ground loops and collisions at very slow speeds became almost always fatal. While it may have been a bit too forgiving, the numbers in 4.604 were a million times better than what they are right now.

 

Thank you

Edited July 23, 2022 by Enceladus
typo