AMD Nvidia Intel

[AngleOff66]

I may have missed the answer to this, but after reading some of the bench marking thread it seems that Intel/Nvidia are still ahead by a bit performance wise.  Do we know why?

 

I REALLY hope to build a new system in Q3/Q4.  Something that can handle VR.

 

The reports on power requirements for the 40 series and gpu transients are crazy to my way of thinking. Yes I plan to wait till I see as many cpu/gpu reviews as I can.  I was leaning towards a 4070, but if AMD can come up with a good GPU that doesn't require me to install a gas powered power generator just to run the gpu I would go that way.

 

So is it just optimization leaning towards 1-2 manufacture(s)?

Edited July 12, 2022 by AngleOff66
typo

[Skelthos]

For CPU  Intel VS AMD  it purely depends on your use case. If all you care about is games that are mostly bound to a single core  Intel tends to be slightly ahead, but honestly AMD is close enough it does not matter.  If you want good gaming and also use software that can take advantage of multicore AMD edges ahead.  For single core performance it comes down to IPC Instructions Per Cycle.  For multicore it comes down to optimization of how the load is handled across cores. 

 

For Nvidia 4000 series, until the boards are actually released it is all speculation, lots of rumor running around, very few actual hard facts. 

 

Mostly choice of manufacturer is personal preference and very minor optimization, in most gaming cases which works best varies game to game. 

 

 

[chiliwili69]

The current bottleneck in IL-2 VR is not in the CPU anymore with the 12th gen of Intel.

Yesterday we have a new 12900KS with 360mm AIO liquid cooling in the office and I tested the singlethread performance, just out-of-the box settings.

It delivered 4825!!. That´s amazing.

The Ryzen Zen3 solved most of our CPU constraints in VR, the Intel 12th gen went well beyond that.

The upcoming Zen4 promises +15% single threaded, so it might not reach the current king (12900KS)

[dburne]

And there will always be a new king coming, vicious circle. Just buy the best you can afford at the time and be happy. Flight sims historically have always been CPU limited. Not sure that will change until they start supporting multi core.

Edited July 12, 2022 by dburne

[Varibraun]

9 minutes ago, chiliwili69 said:

The current bottleneck in IL-2 VR is not in the CPU anymore with the 12th gen of Intel.

 

Based on this and all the now rumored specs for the 4080/90, do you think it is "possible" that the 4000 series GPU could finally be the Holy Grail of VR?

[1Sascha]

1 hour ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

 

 

 

S.

[AngleOff66]

Thanks everyone for your insight.

 

I will always go with air cooling as if anyone can short out their system with water, it is me.

 

I must be patient and wait for reviews.  Would be nice if techtubers included either this game or the other game.  I seem to recall that Hardware Unboxed includes MSFS from time to time.

 

Yes I agree that multi core support could help.  Is very likely needed.

 

I hope that the 40XX series does solve VR.  I'd be just as happy if AMD could do it.

[dburne]

9 minutes ago, AngleOff66 said:

Thanks everyone for your insight.

 

I will always go with air cooling as if anyone can short out their system with water, it is me.

 

I must be patient and wait for reviews.  Would be nice if techtubers included either this game or the other game.  I seem to recall that Hardware Unboxed includes MSFS from time to time.

 

Yes I agree that multi core support could help.  Is very likely needed.

 

I hope that the 40XX series does solve VR.  I'd be just as happy if AMD could do it.

 

It should certainly help - but solve it I would not put a lot of hope in.

[chiliwili69]

9 hours ago, Varibraun said:

Based on this and all the now rumored specs for the 4080/90, do you think it is "possible" that the 4000 series GPU could finally be the Holy Grail of VR?

 

I think the GPU will be always the bottleneck from now on (for IL-2 VR).

Before having VR in IL-2, most of the CPUs at that time (a 4790K for example) were powerfull enough to solve the geometry for the highest CPU dependent graphics for monitor (ie, just 1 geometry, one point of view). Then, we were looking after the GPU to support the highest resolutions (like 4K) at 60Hz, and here people used double cards or G-Sync techniques (look here 8 years ago).

 

And then VR arrived to IL-2, (best decission made in IL-2 development) and suddenly the geometry had to be calculated twice, one for each eye, then our CPUs at that time become the new bottleneck for the VR resolutions used at that time. (Rift CV1 and HTCVice).

 

Now with Zen3 and with 12th gen of Intel we are able to calculate the geometry twice at 80Hz or 90Hz. So, CPUs has passed that threshold and will mostly never be a bottleneck again (unless we have three eyes or have to use deep compression techniques or put 100 tanks in the scene...).

 

My current 3080 is not a constraint for my Index running at 80Hz. So, I can consider I am in the Holy Grail of the Index. But Index is a three year old device with a resolution well below latest devices like G2 or Pimax8KX/12K or Aero. Future devices will increase resolution and GPUs will increase their performance, and this circle will continue year after year. Ideally VR manufacturers should support more than one frequency mode like Index (80Hz, 90Hz, etc) and this helps a lot. Frequencies of 72 and 80 are quite OK for IL-2 VR (maybe not for Beat-Saber).

 

Conclusion: GPUs and VR devices will be the vicious circle for the comming years. But the Holy Grail is already here with IL-2 VR, it is just a question of adapting settings.

[firdimigdi]

1 hour ago, chiliwili69 said:

So, CPUs has passed that threshold and will mostly never be a bottleneck again (unless we have three eyes or have to use deep compression techniques or put 100 tanks in the scene...).

 

Or remain on the same GUI middleware without addressing the potential issues its implementation has created for the singleplayer experience at least - although it seems there might be a future with a different, lighter one in the works.

[1Sascha]

12 hours ago, AngleOff66 said:

I will always go with air cooling as if anyone can short out their system with water, it is me.

I really wouldn't worry about that - at least not if you go with an AiO. Here are pics of the first AiO I ever used after 9 years of use (technically, 8 since I didn't fire up that PC for a year). It is a Corsair H60i, so bottom rung WRT liquid cooling even back when I bought it in 2013 or 2014. Used it in my i5-4670K based system which I put together shortly after the launch of the Haswell family of CPUs.

 

Excuse the dirt on the components ... ?

 

 

 

 

The hose "joints"/grommets (?) look pretty scary and are of way cheaper construction and material than my current Lian Li Galahad 240 - but still... the Corsair never leaked in all those years. There's still liquid in there, but less than when it was new and those shimmering stains on the rubber don't look "stock", either, so there was certainly some evaporation going on (which is to be expected) - but no real leaks. Of course: These pics were taken shortly before I brought the thing to the local recycling yard - wouldn't have wanted to keep using it in this state.

 

S.

[Varibraun]

8 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

Conclusion: GPUs and VR devices will be the vicious circle for the comming years. But the Holy Grail is already here with IL-2 VR, it is just a question of adapting settings.

 

Thank you for the detailed explanation...I am feeling pretty good about the future of VR here.  Holy Grail in hand + New GBs releases close, very powerful CPUs and GPUs in the mix, crypto craze induced GPU prices waning, and VR headsets moving to next gen...it's at least going to be a good year here!  

[dburne]

Yeah I have had good luck with AIO CPU coolers. Started out several years ago with Corsair H100i on a 4820k processor and now have been running their H150i cooler on my 9900k. Have so far not had a single issue with them.

[Dagwoodyt]

5 hours ago, Varibraun said:

 

Thank you for the detailed explanation...I am feeling pretty good about the future of VR here.  Holy Grail in hand + New GBs releases close, very powerful CPUs and GPUs in the mix, crypto craze induced GPU prices waning, and VR headsets moving to next gen...it's at least going to be a good year here!  

This is a much rosier projection than I am seeing. HP and Valve headsets have been around for a while now and I don't see any indications that they are likely to upgrade those models any time soon. Aero has disavantages of high price, lack of integrated headphones/mic and (unless I have misunderstood) need to be online with Varjo in order to use their HMD. To me this represents a stalled situation in the VR HMD market relative to flight sims. Crypto will have ups and downs, but will certainly affect gpu pricing for the foreseeable future.

[Varibraun]

20 minutes ago, Dagwoodyt said:

This is a much rosier projection than I am seeing. HP and Valve headsets have been around for a while now and I don't see any indications that they are likely to upgrade those models any time soon. Aero has disavantages of high price, lack of integrated headphones/mic and (unless I have misunderstood) need to be online with Varjo in order to use their HMD. To me this represents a stalled situation in the VR HMD market relative to flight sims. Crypto will have ups and downs, but will certainly affect gpu pricing for the foreseeable future.

 

Understood, and I will be the first to admit to being a "glass half full" guy.  However, I think everything in my post except the unreleased headsets are already established as much better than this time last year and, even if not perfect, the Aero is certainly a very strong step forward. 

 

So, hopefully, the Aero isn't an anomaly.  Pimax is actively marketing their next releases with the Crystal and the 12K (I realize they have a checkered past - I haven't had one personally, but I think there are posters here that have been pleased with their 8KX).  The Valve "Deckard" rumors persist and Varjo has hinted about improvements to the Aero. While @dburne's post that a Reverb G3 probably isn't in the cards makes me sad, I do hope by next summer we have other shiny new headsets to consider with improved rigs and more GBs.

[dburne]

3 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

This is a much rosier projection than I am seeing. HP and Valve headsets have been around for a while now and I don't see any indications that they are likely to upgrade those models any time soon. Aero has disavantages of high price, lack of integrated headphones/mic and (unless I have misunderstood) need to be online with Varjo in order to use their HMD. To me this represents a stalled situation in the VR HMD market relative to flight sims. Crypto will have ups and downs, but will certainly affect gpu pricing for the foreseeable future.

 

Aero is only required to validate online once every 90 days. But regarding mic and audio you are absolutely correct, most Aero owners will need their own audio and mic solution. It never really bothered me as I prefer to have my own solution with every headset I have had. None sound as good as what I end up with. I ended up with the Creative Soundblaster G6 gaming dac with Razer Hammer Earbuds to use with my Aero.

 

One promising thing with Varjo is they already stated the sales of the Aero far exceeded any expectations they had. They also have been asking for feedback on their Discord of what folks might like to see in the next consumer headset, so  hopefully they will hang in there with it.

And surprisingly Index sales have still been coming in second to Quest 2 sales.

 

Meta will have Quest Pro out in a few months albeit not really clear what the market is they are going for with those. They also stated they wanted to do two new headsets this year, but not sure they will. The other would be the Quest 3. Now talk about headsets that are required to be online... So seems Meta will still drive a large part of VR growth going forward, unless they decide to change direction which would not be surprising. At some point if they are not turning a nice profit the Meta Board may force Zuck to steer in another direction. But I have little doubt the PC-VR enthusiast market is not one ole Zuck has a lot of interest in. Should be an interesting next 12 months. He wants his customers all hanging out together and socializing in the Meta Verse.

 

 

Edited July 13, 2022 by dburne

[Dallas88B]

3 hours ago, dburne said:

He wants his customers all hanging out together and socializing in the Meta Verse

What a great improvement for society. I have this image of 20-somethings hiding in Mum's basement and living in the meta verse.

[Voyager]

On the AMD/Intel, CPU side, I've found the 5800X3D with any DDR4 ram is more than sufficient for Il-2 in VR. So if cost is a primary concern, I'd think that would be the cheapest strong option, especially since it only requires stock speed DDR4. But it does not offer an upgrade path. 

 

For maximum performance now, Alder Lake with fast DDR5 is still the best. You may want to turn off your E-cores though. They give a big multi-threaded performance boost, but also seem to be energy inefficient and require you to be on Windows 11. And DDR5 is expensive. 

 

If you want to wait for Raptor Lake/Zen 4, I'd lean towards Zen 4. I believe Raptor Lake and Zen 4 are expected to trade blows in both single threaded and multi threaded performance, however, the AM5 platform is expected to be extremely good, even right out of the gate.

 

And given how go Zen3 Vcache performs in flight sims, especially with slower ram, I expect you could build a Zen 4 system, then upgrade to a Zen4X3D CPU in a year or so for a big performance bump without having to replace the RAM or motherboard, if DDR5 is still expensive. Raptor Lake will be the end of the line for its platform. 

 

On the GPU side, wait for reviews, unless you're ok taking a risk. With both Lovelace and RDNA3 using Infinity Cache, we may discover that Il-2 doesn't like either or them. 

 

There is an absolute flood of used mining GPUs about to hit the market, so availability shoes not be an issue after the launch month fun. We're probably looking a $500 3080's and potentially $300 3070s, so even if Lovelace and RDNA3 don't like the Il-2 engine, we should be able to find good cards. 

 

(3090s are probably going to stay more expensive. 24Gb of vRam has applications that make it very useful even if it doesn't have the highest processing power anymore.) 

[chiliwili69]

On 7/27/2022 at 6:58 PM, Voyager said:

Alder Lake with fast DDR5 is still the best.

 

You can also go with Alder Lake but fast DDR4 which is much cheaper and provide a comparable performance (look SYNVADER table).

[dburne]

Delete never mind.

Edited July 30, 2022 by dburne