P-47D-22 and -28 WEP Timer Question/Information

[-332FG-Zephyr096]

https://www.spruemaster.com/wp-content/gallery/manual/Republic-P-47-AAF-Manual.pdf

This manual is one I've come across in multiple places online; if someone has a source that debunks its historical accuracy please let me know.

This seems to be a historical training manual for the P-47D, and refers to the "D-25" as the latest model. The D-25 and D-28 had the same model of R2800 (either the -59 or the -63 variant) as far as I can find online.

The issue I'm finding is here:

"Used unhesitatingly" specifically contradicts the hard 5-minute timer we have in the game for the D-22 and D-28. It also implies that the combat power timer of 15 minutes is more of a soft limit than a hard limit, although it doesn't provide information on a "combat power" timer in this particular manual for 150 grade fuel. It provides a limit of 15 minutes for "takeoff power" under 100 grade fuel-which in the next section, I have a rather unscientific but still important qualifier for.

Additionally, this same manual states:

While I understand that modelling an airplane engine accurately is a monumental task, the manual of the plane states that in combat pilots often run over stated limits of their engine "for long periods" yet in-game running over limit for emergency and combat results in a very quick engine death every time.

Accurately modelling detonation, overheating, etc. etc. seems like a tall order, but it would be really wonderful if devs could go back over the engine limits for the D-28 at the least. I think the D-22 may also be shorted, although based on the above manual I believe it should have half the total time of the D-28 (but again, be able to use the entirety of the water supply in one go without suffering engine damage or failure provided the engine has not gone outside of the safe operating temperatures).

Of course, again, I may be incorrect or this source could be incorrect; if someone with a better background in history than my lifelong interest in WWII and no formal training wants to chime in that would be wonderful.

This manual for the P-47 models that used the R-2800-21 variant shows the limit we have in-game of 5 minutes water:





 

The later-war P-47N training manual also refers to a 5 minute limit, but it's written in a way that implies it's to avoid excessive wear during training rather than a hard limit that results in immediate death of the engine upon exceeding the stated timer in a combat situation.
I will post a link to the forum where I found these second two manuals, but the manuals themselvse are too large to upload here.

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/p-47-thunderbolt-manuals.5081/
 

Happy flying, and I appreciate anyone who takes the time to look this over!

-Zephyr

[=RS=EnvyC]

The simple fact is the devs have chosen arbitrary time limits rather than actual engine limitations (such as temperature) to define the lifetime of an engine over the course of a single flight. Given there are literally zero in game reasons to preserve your engine over an extended period of time (say, 6 months in game campaign time as an example), they're effectively meaningless. They negatively affect nearly all allied aircraft to the point where they no longer perform per their historical account. Every multiplayer flight is a brand new off the production line aircraft, which is even more memey when you think about the German unicorns.

 

It doesn't matter what the nuance is in those files you've provided, they'll see "5 minutes" and use that as the deadline. Its inaccurate, unrealistic but thats the design they've chosen and are not interested in deviating from despite the proven problems with such a model and how adversely it affects gameplay.

 

Extending the timer on the 47 is a bandaid at best, the whole model needs to be rewritten for a real solution but we all know thats not going to happen.

Edit: Upon further discussion (and a bit off topic) it turns out they did the right thing with Russian planes, basing them on temperature, but restricting everyone else to an arbitrary timer.

 

Ridiculous.

Edited June 22, 2022 by =RS=EnvyC

[ACG_Cass]

I completely agree but also do understand the devs need to stick to the limits in the manual. Opening anything outside of that is a pandoras box across all of the planes.

 

What I cannot understand, especially with the evidence you've presented here, is what the recharge timer for the P47 is 3 to 1 when a lot of other aircraft have a 1 to 1 timer. Having to fly for 15 mins in continous to get a full emergency timer back is what you would apply to a very fragile engine, which the R2800 is most certainly not.

 

 

[-332FG-Zephyr096]

4 minutes ago, ACG_Cass said:

I completely agree but also do understand the devs need to stick to the limits in the manual. Opening anything outside of that is a pandoras box across all of the planes.

 

What I cannot understand, especially with the evidence you've presented here, is what the recharge timer for the P47 is 3 to 1 when a lot of other aircraft have a 1 to 1 timer. Having to fly for 15 mins in continous to get a full emergency timer back is what you would apply to a very fragile engine, which the R2800 is most certainly not.

 

 

I guess part of my issue is what you stated, but also part of it is that as far as I can tell the limits in the manuals are there to prevent wear and tear on training aircraft, not to prevent failure under combat situations.

The passage about pilots exceeding stated guidelines to me shows that, provided the temps and pressures are kept in a safe range, emergency/combat power should be a flexible timer and not a hard cutoff of "engine failure after 15 minutes".

But of course, that's a big ask, it'd require massive changes in many aircraft.

If the devs would be willing to just take a look at giving the 47 the ability to properly utilize its water/WEP setting that would be a huge improvement.

[Traffic]

I think if they started with the V1710-39 in the P40E (pre war 1941 model) we'd have a good start at rethinking these engine timers. Allisons were extremely robust and could take 70" for prolonged periods of time, as did the R2800s. I read that Pratt and Whitney ran an R2800 at full WEP for 7 hours straight without a failure, and the test was concluded because they simply didnt know when it would give out, but it didnt. 7 hours at full WEP. We have 5 minutes, if that. 

 

[CountZero]

Two problems with system they decided to go.

 

Techchat is buged and dont show messages that inform player when timer ended or recovered, if you decided to make timers this strick then thouse messages should work when techchat is on, like it is on almost all servers.

 

and from whos ass they pull recover times, i can understand they can say but manuals say limit is 5. 15 or 1h, but why american engines take 10min to recover 5 min, british engines take 15 min to recover 5 min and german engines take 10 min to recover 10 min, that is total bs and make belive that gives unrealistic advantages to airplanes that didnt have them, so slaves in buker and with lack of proper material build stonger lasting engines LOL 

 

Engine timer system is bad to start with, but their implementation is what is making it so poor.

[the_emperor]

well, @-332FG-Zephyr096 this has been brought up many times backed up by good arguments and sources (specially for the british/US fighter with the Merlin/Packard engine), but there is not change in sight currently.

The did not even change the timers itself when correction is needed and good evidence has been presented that they are wrong (e.g. the BF109G with later DB605A 1min WEP should be changed to 3min (known since 2018), the La-5fn with 10min should be reduced to 5min and 100rpm reduction should not double your WEP time)

Maybe they´ll have a look at it after the big Normandy update.

[CountZero]

6 hours ago, the_emperor said:

well, @-332FG-Zephyr096 this has been brought up many times backed up by good arguments and sources (specially for the british/US fighter with the Merlin/Packard engine), but there is not change in sight currently.

The did not even change the timers itself when correction is needed and good evidence has been presented that they are wrong (e.g. the BF109G with later DB605A 1min WEP should be changed to 3min (known since 2018), the La-5fn with 10min should be reduced to 5min and 100rpm reduction should not double your WEP time)

Maybe they´ll have a look at it after the big Normandy update.

After Dropt tanks, fuel system, Damage model, Air marshal, AI... work on FM for C-47, IAR-81 and other collector airplanes... and then you have to start working on new DLC airplanes and maps and so on... doubt engine timers are anywhere close to be working on or rechecked.

[the_emperor]

@CountZero well, I guess you are right. But I am still hopefull, that they will at list recognize some wrong time limits and change them to the correct ones (I dont expect a rework of the timing system itself).

At least correcting the time limits and their "regeneration times" should be easy enough to do do along the way.

 

[-332FG-Zephyr096]

7 hours ago, the_emperor said:

well, @-332FG-Zephyr096 this has been brought up many times backed up by good arguments and sources (specially for the british/US fighter with the Merlin/Packard engine), but there is not change in sight currently.

The did not even change the timers itself when correction is needed and good evidence has been presented that they are wrong (e.g. the BF109G with later DB605A 1min WEP should be changed to 3min (known since 2018), the La-5fn with 10min should be reduced to 5min and 100rpm reduction should not double your WEP time)

Maybe they´ll have a look at it after the big Normandy update.

I really enjoy flying and I love the P-47, can't blame a lad for trying to get something fixed, can you?

[the_emperor]

13 minutes ago, -332FG-Zephyr096 said:

I really enjoy flying and I love the P-47, can't blame a lad for trying to get something fixed, can you?

 

Absolutely not. This iconic bird needs the love and intention to present it in the game as true as possibile. and the current state sadly deters people from flying it.

it was the workhorse of the USAAF down low or up high. So maybe after Normandy is done, I hope they will do some backtracking and revisit some planes/FM in dire need of some attention. So keep on digging for primary sources that help bring this forward.

Cheers

 

 

[CountZero]

8 hours ago, the_emperor said:

@CountZero well, I guess you are right. But I am still hopefull, that they will at list recognize some wrong time limits and change them to the correct ones (I dont expect a rework of the timing system itself).

At least correcting the time limits and their "regeneration times" should be easy enough to do do along the way.

 

Spit9 18lbs wep is 4 min insted 5 min they say it should be, if they have no time to fix this simple error for how long now, there is no way they gona do anything more advanced regarding timers.

[Denum]

The way MSFS has done engine abuse is pretty good. 

 

 

You get a generous timer with a bit of RNG. Which personally I think is alot of fun. The harder you push the engine the more likely you are to pop it, the higher your RNG chance gets. So if we have people pushing engines but with a bit of care, they'll have a motor last longer then the fellow fire walled the entire time. Then the players are actually being matched on who's taking care of the engine, instead of the current model which just benefits whoever has the longer timer.

 

Even if the engines had a heat penalty vs a timer. You start losing heat capacity the longer you push the engine. This one might be tricky because the P47 and iL2 overheat pretty easily on hot days from what I've experienced in game.

 

 

[the_emperor]

The problem is, that we cant "read" the engines. they dont give a warning before failure or anything that says that we are running/abuse the engine outside it comfort zone. And almost all manuals state you must watch your gauges and as long as everything (oil pressure, temperatures etc...) are in the green your engine is fine.

In other words:  these timers we currently, have are a placeholder for an engine (management) simulation, that is currently missing in the game.

Though I dont know if placeholder is the right term, as it would mean it would get replaced eventually.

Cheers

[CountZero]

11 hours ago, the_emperor said:

The problem is, that we cant "read" the engines. they dont give a warning before failure or anything that says that we are running/abuse the engine outside it comfort zone. And almost all manuals state you must watch your gauges and as long as everything (oil pressure, temperatures etc...) are in the green your engine is fine.

In other words:  these timers we currently, have are a placeholder for an engine (management) simulation, that is currently missing in the game.

Though I dont know if placeholder is the right term, as it would mean it would get replaced eventually.

Cheers

Considering that every MP server has techchat on, simple fix is devs fixing bug where messages that tell player when safe time is finished and when time is recovered, this works only when also instrument panel is on, and instrument panel hase nothing to do with that, so its clear bug. But why fix simple things that help player whe we can all wait for time when hell frezes over and engine timers overhaul.

In SP ppl can just fly with unbrakable on in realisam, so timers then dont do any damage. 

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by CountZero

[-332FG-Zephyr096]

Any devs have time to look over this? Maybe after Normandy comes out? It'd be a HUGE QOL update for us 47 pilots to have better timers.

[the_emperor]

On 6/22/2022 at 4:13 PM, -332FG-Zephyr096 said:

"Used unhesitatingly" specifically contradicts the hard 5-minute timer

 I am not native of the english language, but doesn´t it mean more in the sense of "immediately" or "instantaneously"?

From what I understand, A big problem is also, that other engine settings to eat away time of your WEP (and Water injection time), which should be corrected asap!

If you choose to go by time limits from the manuals, I should be able to use them to the full extend and again recovery times should be looked upon same as the "trick" to increase MAP timing by a small reduction in RPM (some doubling/trippling the time at WEP MAP e.g. Spitfire Mk IX or La-5fn).

well...it´s a hot mess ? 

[354thFG_Rails]

2 hours ago, the_emperor said:

 I am not native of the english language, but doesn´t it mean more in the sense of "immediately" or "instantaneously"?

From what I understand, A big problem is also, that other engine settings to eat away time of your WEP (and Water injection time), which should be corrected asap!

If you choose to go by time limits from the manuals, I should be able to use them to the full extend and again recovery times should be looked upon same as the "trick" to increase MAP timing by a small reduction in RPM (some doubling/trippling the time at WEP MAP e.g. Spitfire Mk IX or La-5fn).

well...it´s a hot mess ? 

Almost like they should do away with the timer system and base everything on temps and pressures. You know in actual thermal model..

[CountZero]

well its probably last on prio list, after drop tanks fuel, DM, ammo... and so on... so full revision or even fix on existing small discrepancies is long way off

 

one quick fix, on off realisam setting for engine timers, undestructable realisam option shows that this works in game it just need to be separated from not being able to explod on crash, and you get engine timer off option. Simple easy quick, doubt they gona do it lol

 

second easy fix, bug in techchat that dont inform player when timer expires and recovers, fix this simple bug and all of suden player can see when his timers end, its no longer random and risk, it works like it should in game. And all servers use techchat...

Why you have overheat message in techchat when you have temp gauges, but you have this buged message on thing that player cant know when safe timer expires or recovers, simple, easy quick , they aint gona do it lol

 

 

[354thFG_Rails]

1 hour ago, CountZero said:

well its probably last on prio list, after drop tanks fuel, DM, ammo... and so on... so full revision or even fix on existing small discrepancies is long way off

 

one quick fix, on off realisam setting for engine timers, undestructable realisam option shows that this works in game it just need to be separated from not being able to explod on crash, and you get engine timer off option. Simple easy quick, doubt they gona do it lol

 

second easy fix, bug in techchat that dont inform player when timer expires and recovers, fix this simple bug and all of suden player can see when his timers end, its no longer random and risk, it works like it should in game. And all servers use techchat...

Why you have overheat message in techchat when you have temp gauges, but you have this buged message on thing that player cant know when safe timer expires or recovers, simple, easy quick , they aint gona do it lol

 

 

Well I’m sure their talented pinkies can find time to do the easy fixes. I’m sure it’s like a 10 minute job. 

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

1 hour ago, CountZero said:

 

 

second easy fix, bug in techchat that dont inform player when timer expires and recovers, fix this simple bug and all of suden player can see when his timers end, its no longer random and risk, it works like it should in game. And all servers use techchat...

Why you have overheat message in techchat when you have temp gauges, but you have this buged message on thing that player cant know when safe timer expires or recovers, simple, easy quick , they aint gona do it lol

 

 

I've noticed that the message letting you know if the timer has expired or recovered is linked to having the instrument panel option turned on. Lots of servers have the instrument panel off but techochat on, so could that be the reason it doesnt show, and its not a bug?

[the_emperor]

17 hours ago, 354th_Rails said:

Almost like they should do away with the timer system and base everything on temps and pressures. You know in actual thermal model..

 

And do give the discussion a funny spin, in the CloD forum there is a complaint that an engine (in this case the one if the Bf 109F) is able to run WEP past time stated in the manual:

Though from what I read the engine simulation in Clod seems to bee far more sophisticated than that of the the BoX series, and thus maybe "truer". 

[354thFG_Rails]

I don’t mind if the emergency times are kept and there’s a bit of rng to make it seem like random engine failures but a limit on combat time is silly to me. No one in the real world would be worrying about how much time they used in combat. It’s firewall that engine and survive. 

[-332FG-Zephyr096]

On 7/20/2022 at 6:21 AM, the_emperor said:

 I am not native of the english language, but doesn´t it mean more in the sense of "immediately" or "instantaneously"?

From what I understand, A big problem is also, that other engine settings to eat away time of your WEP (and Water injection time), which should be corrected asap!

If you choose to go by time limits from the manuals, I should be able to use them to the full extend and again recovery times should be looked upon same as the "trick" to increase MAP timing by a small reduction in RPM (some doubling/trippling the time at WEP MAP e.g. Spitfire Mk IX or La-5fn).

well...it´s a hot mess ? 

"used unhesitatingly" would be closer to "used freely" than "used instantly."

It does mean "used instantly" but there's more weight to the "without worry" side of it. Hesitance usually implies some level of concern, not just a simple momentary pause-doing something unhesitatingly is doing it in an immediate and unconcerned manner. If they needed pilots to stop their WEP after 5 minutes, they would not tell pilots to be liberal with their use of WEP in an emergency.

Here's the dictionary definition: "If you say that someone does something unhesitatingly, you mean that they do it immediately and confidently, without any doubt or anxiety. "

On 7/21/2022 at 11:20 AM, 354th_Rails said:

I don’t mind if the emergency times are kept and there’s a bit of rng to make it seem like random engine failures but a limit on combat time is silly to me. No one in the real world would be worrying about how much time they used in combat. It’s firewall that engine and survive. 

The issue is that the emergency timer of the -47 we have in-game doesn't relate to a manual for the series of airplane we have access to.

There are certainly planes that adhere to a timer, and other models of the R-2800 have different guidelines, but the 5 minute timer for the D-28 model P-47 is, as far as I can tell, straight up wrong.

The plane has enough supply for 15mins WEP, and it can be used all at once with no recovery time.

This also lines up with many, many, first hand accounts I've read of pilots turning on WEP and firewalling the engine until combat is over and not worrying about it.

There's a combat AAR with a famous ace [I think it was Gabreski but I could be misremembering (I will try to find the link later, it's in the 332 discord somewhere)] where he specifically mentions that after a combat where he shot down or fought off several German aircraft on the deck and took engine damage he pulled away and saw all his gauges redlined, so he just pulled back the throttle and took it easy going home. This lines up with many other AAR I've read. The experienced pilots would firewall the throttle and hit the water as soon as they were either in trouble or about to intercept and not worry about the engine until action was over.

[Padre*]

On 7/21/2022 at 7:22 AM, the_emperor said:

 

And do give the discussion a funny spin, in the CloD forum there is a complaint that an engine (in this case the one if the Bf 109F) is able to run WEP past time stated in the manual:

Though from what I read the engine simulation in Clod seems to bee far more sophisticated than that of the the BoX series, and thus maybe "truer". 

 

You misrepresented my post in the CLOD section. I made no such complaint that the 109-F runs on full boost past it's time stated in the manual.

 

Read the discussion in full, view the video I provided, and see the documented problems the Luftwaffe had with their engines. I was not suggesting it should be on a timer. I was in fact stating that the F-4 can be run on FT for an unlimited time, which given the evidence, should not be possible.

 

If anything, as proven by an aeronautical engineer in the evidence I provide, the limitations on the DB series engines should be much stricter given the historically documented engine problems

Edited August 7, 2022 by Padre*

[the_emperor]

@-332FG-Zephyr096

the manual you posted doesnt give a 5min limit but a 15min limit:

[-332FG-Zephyr096]

23 hours ago, the_emperor said:

@-332FG-Zephyr096

the manual you posted doesnt give a 5min limit but a 15min limit:

Yep!

I didn't screenshot it but that is part of what I am arguing for here.

There is a different model of the P-47 that has a 5 minute suggested limit of use on emergency/takeoff power in the manual, but that's not the model we have in the game.

The model we have in the games has a 15-minute limit, which is because the tank has only 15 minutes of water in it, NOT because the engine will immediately die after 15 minutes.

[RossMarBow]

"Like ammunition, water should be hoarded until needed, and then used unhesitatingly"

 

This implies that water can be used until it is used up.
As you would use ammo.
In a combat situation you are free to fire at the enemy as much as possible, and run the engine as hard as possible with the only restriction being the amount of water and ammo.
Hoarded until needed simply implies that you shouldn't be using water injection outside of combat as it is a limited resource, just as you wouldn't fire off your guns if you weren't in combat.
 

i.e. in a combat situation you can run water injection mode until you run out of water, as you would fire all your ammo at the enemy
and in the case of the p47 you get a lot of ammo and a lot of guns
so it also implies that the p47 should be able to run constantly at full power until it runs out of water then keep running afterwards

 

so the p47 in the game should be able to run full water injection constantly non-stop until all its water is used up
then still be able to run constantly non-stop at the lower waterless power setting

 

 

On 7/20/2022 at 10:21 PM, the_emperor said:

 I am not native of the english language, but doesn´t it mean more in the sense of "immediately" or "instantaneously"?

From what I understand, A big problem is also, that other engine settings to eat away time of your WEP (and Water injection time), which should be corrected asap!

If you choose to go by time limits from the manuals, I should be able to use them to the full extend and again recovery times should be looked upon same as the "trick" to increase MAP timing by a small reduction in RPM (some doubling/trippling the time at WEP MAP e.g. Spitfire Mk IX or La-5fn).

well...it´s a hot mess ? 

 

[CountZero]

D-28 in game have watter for 15 min, D-22 for 7min, but as timer is 5min water cant be drained in one go.

 

They still didnt explain a thing about timer system in game, why is so strick, why is recharg picked randomly for all airplane types, why its messages dont work and so on... system that heavy dictates how player can DF, not a single word from devs about it, and how they pick its data to work in game for stuff that didnt exist in real world , like recover times.