RAF Bombers and night fighters

[HeerRitter]

Anyone know if there's been any hint of a medium or heavy RAF Bomber? There seems to be a large hole we're this should go.. I'd really like to see a Halifax, Sterling or Lancaster heavy and a Wellington medium bomber added to GB. It'll also be a good way to bring more night fighter missions in to campaign.. aircraft like NJG versions of the ju88c & do17 with 'Schraeger Muzik' up to eight 20mm and 30mm up facing guns and maybe the American P61 Black Widow the only aircraft ever built solely as night fighter.

 

I read a great book a while back by Colin Heaton and Ann-Marie Lewis 'Night Fighters Luftwaffe and RAF over Europe '39-'45 I'd like to see more of this huge portion of the war over Europe represented more in GB.

 

Just my 2 pence for it's worth ?

Edited June 8, 2022 by HeerRitter

[[CPT]milopugdog]

Sounds like fun! It also combines two of the forum's reoccurring topics.

For bombers, heavies are a little out of reach right now due to limitations with the game, and the combat focus of the game is on the tactical level instead of strategic. I won't really go much more in depth for that; but if you want, just look up "heavies" using forum search.

About the radar... would be cool to have, but iirc Jason more or less stated that they don't have a way to implement it that would be intuitive and fun for players to use. So until then (if ever), it would seem that airborne-oscilloscope radar is also out of reach.

 

Smaller bombers like the Wellington are probably possible, with the only question being specification materials, development time, and money. As of now, you could set up a mission fairly easily with ground vectored 'radar' messages telling you location. I did a stress test for a similarly themed co-op mission (linked in the spoiler), and it was alright... lots of jittering, ran into overload warnings, weird speed and damage calculations... couldn't imagine it with AI escorts or other players.

Spoiler

 

 

So cool idea, but in practicality? well... I wish we could have night fighters and heavies too.

[HeerRitter]

I kinda already had an idea that heavy bombers were going to be a hard one as I'd read a thread a while back about the b25's and other heavies with such large formations the ai wouldn't work. But we can live in hope that one day it may be..

 

Unlike the heavy bombers the Wellington flew in much smaller formations, in comparison. I'd definitely like to see the Wellington implemented to complete the RAF, being a two engine medium bomber it'd compliment the ju88, IL2's well, just as we have the C47 to the ju52. I know we have the mosquito but I think there needs to be at least one iconic medium British bomber that played a pivotal role in Europe..

 

As far as specifications the Wellington shouldn't be to difficult to find, time and money I can't really talk too, however I'd buy it as a collector plane and be happy to do it!

 

I'd also buy a 'Night fighters' Scripted Mission module which if anyone's wondering would probably look something like this..

 

Spoiler

 

??

Edited June 8, 2022 by HeerRitter

[Charon]

It doesn't feature radar, obviously, but you should try the Nightfighters Over the Kuban 10.(NJ)/ZG1 scripted campaign if you haven't already.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

3 hours ago, [CPT]milopugdog said:

For bombers, heavies are a little out of reach right now due to limitations with the game, and the combat focus of the game is on the tactical level instead of strategic. I won't really go much more in depth for that; but if you want, just look up "heavies" using forum search.

Actually, if you use forum search, you'll find the following post by Jason regarding these "limitations with the game" that supposedly would prevent four-engine bombers:

[ShamrockOneFive]

Yep, can we stop spreading around this bit about the engine not supporting four engine bombers. It's made up.

 

For some reason that is easier to believe than the real issue which is four engine bombers are complicated and take more developer time to create.

[BlitzPig_EL]

I am confident that the devs could build any aircraft that flew in WW2, that isn't' the issue.  This sim is based around tactical air operations, and the maps are all pretty much of a size that would make anything like an accurate depiction of strategic bombing a near impossibility.  Assume for a moment that we have a B17 in the sim now.  If you were fully fueled and bombed up, and took off from the furthest west airfield on the Bodenplatte map that was long enough for a B17, I doubt you would get to 20,000ft. before you got to your target on the other side of the map.

 

Medium bombers are best answer for how the sim is played with the maps that we have, or will have in the future.

[CountZero]

12 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I am confident that the devs could build any aircraft that flew in WW2, that isn't' the issue.  This sim is based around tactical air operations, and the maps are all pretty much of a size that would make anything like an accurate depiction of strategic bombing a near impossibility.  Assume for a moment that we have a B17 in the sim now.  If you were fully fueled and bombed up, and took off from the furthest west airfield on the Bodenplatte map that was long enough for a B17, I doubt you would get to 20,000ft. before you got to your target on the other side of the map.

 

Medium bombers are best answer for how the sim is played with the maps that we have, or will have in the future.

But its the only way to add Me-163B, that is real reason why we need B-17G ?

[Avimimus]

A long time ago I made the case here for why a Lancaster might still be feasible (no idea why an Avro Manchester is the thumbnail - it isn't in the original post, that shows a Fw-190D9 attacking a Lancaster in daylight - something which did happen):

 

Honestly though, I am hoping that Team Fusion gets sufficiently rewarded and keeps developing the Cliffs of Dover engine... as it is the most likely path for some enthusiasts to bring radar into one of these sims.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Avimimus

[RyanR]

The Mosquito is kind of a two-engine RAF night 'bomber'.

 

-Ryan

[busdriver]

On 6/7/2022 at 8:55 PM, HeerRitter said:

I read a great book a while back by Colin Heaton and Ann-Marie Lewis 'Night Fighters Luftwaffe and RAF over Europe '39-'45 I'd like to see more of this huge portion of the war over Europe represented more in GB.

 

This is my review of that book 12 years ago. I wasn't impressed.

 

[HeerRitter]

22 hours ago, Charon said:

It doesn't feature radar, obviously, but you should try the Nightfighters Over the Kuban 10.(NJ)/ZG1 scripted campaign if you haven't already.

I've got all the maps and scripted missions (waiting on single player Normandy) Inc the Kuban one but I didn't know it was night fighting, I'll have take a break from my current career and give that a look ???

2 hours ago, busdriver said:

 

This is my review of that book 12 years ago. I wasn't impressed.

 

I found it quite an engaging read from the start and if I'm not hooked on the first two chapters of a book I usually don't bother or skip read depending on the type of book.

 

Which cover art did urs have cause mines not much to look at.

I normally remove the dust covers on my hard backs anyway.. What (if you've read it) did u think of Chris Gross Luftwaffe Fighter Bombers over Britain? 

Edited June 9, 2022 by HeerRitter

[busdriver]

14 minutes ago, HeerRitter said:

Which cover art did urs have cause mines not much to look at, although I normally remove the dust covers on my hard backs anyway, what (if you've read it) did u think of Chris Gross Luftwaffe Fighter Bombers over Britain? 

 

Same artwork, that's Roy Grinnell's work. I genuinely like it, but not as much as Robert Taylor's "Rangers on the Rampage" that hangs here over my shoulder.

 

 

I liked Heaton's effort on Hans Marseille. I've not read that title by Chris Goss, his book Bloody Biscay is a favorite. 

[357th_KW]

3 hours ago, busdriver said:

 

This is my review of that book 12 years ago. I wasn't impressed.

 

 

Of the five you mentioned, which would be the best for a nightfighter neophyte?

[Luftschiff]

Having just finished reading Wilhelm Johnen's memoirs "Duel under the stars" / "Duell unter den sternen", I've also got a real hankerin' for some night fighting. Excellent book too. I can't see us getting a radar modelled anytime soon though unfortunately.

[tattywelshie]

3 hours ago, Luftschiff said:

Having just finished reading Wilhelm Johnen's memoirs "Duel under the stars" / "Duell unter den sternen", I've also got a real hankerin' for some night fighting. Excellent book too. I can't see us getting a radar modelled anytime soon though unfortunately.

I second Duel under the stars, had it on audible and it was fascinating.

[HeerRitter]

@Luftschiff @tattywelshie I think I'll have pick up a copy if its good any other recommendations?

[tattywelshie]

29 minutes ago, HeerRitter said:

@Luftschiff @tattywelshie I think I'll have pick up a copy if its good any other recommendations?

I’ve also started to read “The Other Battle: Luftwaffe Night Aces Versus Bomber Command” which is written by a navigator from bomber command. I’m only one chapter in but it’s excellent so far.

[busdriver]

On 6/9/2022 at 1:15 AM, 357th_KW said:

 

Of the five you mentioned, which would be the best for a nightfighter neophyte?

 

Well, what is your interest? Meaning are you more interested in the RAF or Luftwaffe perspective? Or do you want to cover both sides at the same time? Or are you more interested in personal anecdotes to describe the pilots' POV? My interest is what you might describe as "survey" or big picture (chronology of tactics, radar, weapons, electronic countermeasures, squadron victories and losses) rather than personal or specific unit history.

 

Aders German Night Fighter Force is available in hardback or kindle versions. It's dated (originally published in 1978) but has excellent graphics and tables regarding LW radar and typical nightfighter weapons and performance. This book would be the foundation of your understanding of the Nachtjagd.

 

I confess my bias here because I occasionally exchange emails with this author, but Theo Boiten (PhD) is IMO the go to expert on the Nachtjagd. He co-authored Battle with the Nachtjagd with Martin Bowman. It's a big heavy 340 page Schiffer book that presents both sides with lots of personal anecdotes, lots of pictures, lots of small print footnotes at the end of chapters, no graphics/maps, and a few nice tables of Air Order of Battle. 

 

Boiten's earlier (1997) Nachtjagd is a short 234 pages that presents the Luftwaffe side. Think earlier version of the title above. 

 

Delve's Nightfighter falls into the short survey book that includes a couple of pre and post WWII chapters. 

 

Peter Hinchliffe's The Other Battle has fewer pictures, but a couple of rare graphics/maps that I've not found anywhere else. It doesn't cover RAF nightfighter ops, rather Bomber Command vs the Nachtjagd. He has fewer personal anecdotes that I frequently find disrupting to the narrative. This is one of those books that I will keep and re-read. 

 

If you might be more interested in the personal aspect of the night air war, Johnen's title mentioned by @Luftschiff and @tattywelshie is excellent. Peter Hinchliffe wrote a very nice book about Heinz Wolfgang Schnaufer (basically the Nachtjagd's Erich Hartmann). Along those lines is a short 200 page out of print title by David P Williams Night Fighters that briefly covers the exploits of five pilots (I like the artwork by Robert Taylor). I have a few similar titles by RAF crews.

 

Finally a few words about the offerings of the prolific British author Martin W. Bowman. I own a dozen or so of his books, mostly about the Mosquito. His latest titles about the night air war are Nachtjagd Defenders of the Reich 1940-1943 (kindle edition currently on sale for $3.99) and German Fighter Versus Bomber Command 1943-1945 (kindle edition currently on sale for $2.99). I have two basic critiques of Mr Bowman's work in everything he writes.

1) He frequently disrupts the flow of the narrative/chronology with extraneous personal details of people he mentions. His books would be half the length and flow so much better without these distractions IMO.

2) He constantly changes years without specifying what year something happened. Meaning he writes about something Elmo Bigglesworth did in June (understood to be 1944 by the events), then writes about something Bigglesworth did two years prior before interjecting something that happened in April 1944. He drives me nuts just trying to keep the timeline straight.  

 

Having said that I also have found errors where Bowman credits the downing of LW crew A by RAF crew A, then one paragraph later says RAF crew B downed LW crew A. He really needs a better editor. 

Edited June 11, 2022 by busdriver

[AEthelraedUnraed]

4 minutes ago, busdriver said:

I confess my bias here because I occasionally exchange emails with this author, but Theo Boiten (PhD) is IMO the go to expert on the Nachtjagd. He co-authored Battle with the Nachtjagd with Martin Bowman. It's a big heavy 340 page Schiffer book that presents both sides with lots of personal anecdotes, lots of pictures, lots of small print footnotes at the end of chapters, no graphics/maps, and a few nice tables of Air Order of Battle. 

 

Boiten's earlier (1997) Nachtjagd is a short 234 pages that presents the Luftwaffe side. Think earlier version of the title above. PM me if you would like to read it. I'll send it to you for free. In return make a donation to a local animal shelter or food bank. I'm moving soon and need to cull my library.

Boiten also authored the relatively recent Nachtjagd Combat Archive, which is *the* place to go for information about individual sorties. Regrettably I'm not in the financial position that I can spend some €300 on the series, but there are some gorgeous preview pages online. I won't be giving away too much info at this point, but I may or may not be in the process of re-creating some of the night-fighting sorties from these preview pages, that I may or may not plan to share later this year as a (short) free campaign

[busdriver]

59 minutes ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

Boiten also authored the relatively recent Nachtjagd Combat Archive, which is *the* place to go for information about individual sorties.

 

Yep, I love the series. Looking forward to your project that you may or may not share.

[HeerRitter]

12 hours ago, Luftschiff said:

Having just finished reading Wilhelm Johnen's memoirs "Duel under the stars" / "Duell unter den sternen", I've also got a real hankerin' for some night fighting. Excellent book too. I can't see us getting a radar modelled anytime soon though unfortunately.

I just grabbed it on Amazon in hardback, if you have any other recommendations of first hand accounts from either the Luftwaffe or first hand descriptive accounts of RAF night time bomb raids over Berlin.. I'll be grateful

 

Yeah it' a shame but I do think it'll will be something added in the future in the mean time between Great Battles, Cliffs of Dover/Tobruk, Tank Crew, UBoat, Arma 3/ Reforger and DCS we should be alright ? 

 

Oh and not forgetting Flying Circus of course..

 

2 hours ago, tattywelshie said:

I’ve also started to read “The Other Battle: Luftwaffe Night Aces Versus Bomber Command” which is written by a navigator from bomber command. I’m only one chapter in but it’s excellent so far.

I might give that a look, after I receive Duel under the stars..  what plane was he a Bombardier in?

Edited June 9, 2022 by HeerRitter

[Avimimus]

Cool thread!

[Talisman]

On 6/9/2022 at 5:08 AM, busdriver said:

 

Same artwork, that's Roy Grinnell's work. I genuinely like it, but not as much as Robert Taylor's "Rangers on the Rampage" that hangs here over my shoulder.

 

 

I liked Heaton's effort on Hans Marseille. I've not read that title by Chris Goss, his book Bloody Biscay is a favorite. 

 

I have this one too.  Brilliant!  

 

Trouble is that I am running out of wall space for my Robert Taylor collection and have a pile waiting to be framed.

 

Me and a mate are having great fun doing this sort of mission on MP since release of the Mosquito, so a big thank you to the IL-2 dev team. 

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

 

P.S.  This is a nice one and unusual.  Less dramatic but rather atmospheric (signed by 'Cats-eyes' himself too):

 

Sold Price: World War II 18X13 print titled Moonlighting by Robert Taylor limited edition 249/400 signed in - August 5, 0121 10:00 AM BST (invaluable.com)

 

Edited June 10, 2022 by ACG_Talisman

[busdriver]

48 minutes ago, ACG_Talisman said:

Me and a mate are having great fun doing this sort of mission on MP since release of the Mosquito

How’s your success rate of both safely returning from the mission? Looking for a third to soak up the snappers and flak for you?

[357th_Esco]

On 6/8/2022 at 1:37 AM, BlitzPig_EL said:

I am confident that the devs could build any aircraft that flew in WW2, that isn't' the issue.  This sim is based around tactical air operations, and the maps are all pretty much of a size that would make anything like an accurate depiction of strategic bombing a near impossibility.  Assume for a moment that we have a B17 in the sim now.  If you were fully fueled and bombed up, and took off from the furthest west airfield on the Bodenplatte map that was long enough for a B17, I doubt you would get to 20,000ft. before you got to your target on the other side of the map.

 

Medium bombers are best answer for how the sim is played with the maps that we have, or will have in the future.

I am sure people would not mind air spawn at 20,000ft if they can have big bombers in the game.

[Talisman]

On 6/10/2022 at 4:47 PM, busdriver said:

How’s your success rate of both safely returning from the mission? Looking for a third to soak up the snappers and flak for you?

Had some success against a single bandit by using the 'thach weave' and managed to get home on occasion after destroying the bandit that way, but if one of us has taken damage over the target then it makes that move very difficult.

 

Learning to quickly get organised to fly on one engine is useful, lol.  Learning to take one pass only on the target.  Learning to navigate better (and less predictable) at low level and popping up at the last moment.  Learning we should have escort.  Learning, learning, learning, lol.  Hope my 2nd crew member learns to talk soon!  Still early days and have not tried any anti ship stuff yet.

 

We often fly from 14.00 to 17.00 hrs on a Thursday (the day of the week changes when our spouses have other plans, but the time of day remains the same) and we both have SRS.  Flying as a team is great, so linking up with other like minded folk is always a good thing.  Will look out for you.   

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

 

P.S.  Sorry, forgot to mention time zone is UK, which is BST at the moment (1 hr ahead of GMT).

Edited June 12, 2022 by ACG_Talisman