WinWing Orion 2 Base: IL2 Key Bindings and 4x32 Button Mode issue

[Cravis]

Does anyone here have the WinWing Orion 2 base?

I have trouble with IL2 GB key bindings. Switches on the Throttle itself and they Joystick seem to work normal but basically all switches on the Orion 2 base do not work properly.

IL2 GB seeming recognises the switches and I can bind them however they do not work when flying. All switches are recognised by IL2GB as pov positions. 

 

In SimApp Pro it says to switch to 4x32 Button mode for IL2 etc. 

And I would do that if it worked... if I click on 4x32 Button Mode the device is disconnected and then goes into a disconnect and reconnect loop... to end that I have to kill the SimApp Pro.

 

Anyone got it to work and has advice?

[Chilli_40]

I have one coming this week, I'll let you know if I have trouble also.

[Cravis]

Yea would appreciate the feedback.

 

Got mine on a USB hub if that matters but I can't really connect it directly to a PC USB port. I'm simply running out of USB Ports.

TrackIR gave me this trouble that the software was sometimes freezing, it got really terrible after I installed the Thrustmaster and Cubesim MFDs last week. After that the TrackIR Software would freeze basically every 10 minutes, I was unable to finish any mission in DCS or IL2.

Since yesterday I have TrackIR connected directly to the PC and at least yesterday I had no issue. However If everything needs its own PC USB Port I just don't have enough of them not to mention I need a 5m extension cable every time... 

[Cravis]

I connected the base directly to the PC. The 4x32 mode now "seems" to work with this, the device no longer goes into a disconnect-reconnect loop.

The Windows game controller recognises 4 devices now with 32 buttons each.

So apparently another device not keen on sitting on a USB hub... 

 

However I don't understand this mode at all.

First of all devices have the exact same name and then:

 

Device 1 has axis and buttons and all is working.

Device 2 has only buttons and nothing works.

Device 3 has only buttons and all work.

Device 4 has only buttons and nothing works.

 

What is the point of 4 devices if 2 devices seem to do absolutely nothing?

It gets stranger yet: IL2 recognises a new device is connected but only one not four and absolutely nothing seems to work or is recognised: No axis, no buttons.

It is like it is not even there.

 

Once in 4x32 Mode SimApp Pro basically disables everything and says to test etc. leave 4x32 mode so there is nothing to adjust in SimApp Pro.

It still records button presses and axis movements etc. so you can still see if it works and apparently it does. And in Windows it does too but not in IL2.

 

How does this work?

[Cravis]

Just for your information:

 

My current solution is RS Mapper: RS Mapper Release - DCS Modding - ED Forums

 

With this you can map keyboard shortcuts to device buttons.

So it is a workaround: Instead of mapping the buttons of the base in game I map the games keyboard shortcuts to the switches off the base.

 

I still can't get the 4x32 mode to work. Someone from r/HOTAS said IL2 can only detect 8 USB devices. This I have to test because:

 

2x Cougar MFD

1x Orion Joystick base + F-16EX Grip

1x MFG Cross Wind Rudder Pedals

1x Mouse

1x Keyboard

1x TrackIR

 

If I then switch the Orion 2 Base to 4x32 Mode then I am well and truly beyond 8 devices... and I'm actually using 2x Mouse and 2x Keyboard because my Simrig is not near the PC but idk if two mouse and keyboards actually count against that.

[Sokol1]

4 hours ago, Cravis said:

...I am well and truly beyond 8 devices... and I'm actually using 2x Mouse and 2x Keyboard because my Simrig is not near the PC but idk if two mouse and keyboards actually count against that.

 

Mouse and keyboard don't count, only the controllers that appear in the list in Windows Game Controllers (Win key+R, type joy.cpl).

[GOZR]

in DCS works flowless..   in IL2 it's a nightmare .....   in 4x32 Mode it recognize the axis but doesn't work//

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by GOZR

[GOZR]

No word from WinWing

[GOZR]

Here is WinWing's answer

 

Winwing

switch to 4x 32 mode in Simapp to see if it will pop-up. IL2 is not user friendly with hardware of lots of bottons.

 

 

So  Il2 techs, What can we do about this serious issue ?  Thank you

[Cravis]

1C could update the game to support 128 button devices. They currently work on an update to allow greater adjustment of axis maybe it is on their to-do list.

 

As a work around I highly recommend using RS Mapper, which I linked further up.

Instead of mapping buttons in game to the device with this you map keyboard short cuts to the device.

Works fine.

 

There just some things to notice: The program or IL2 has a strange behaviour when sending or reading modified key commands.

It basically boils down to never have a function mapped to a basic key and a modified version of it:

 

E.g.:

F = Flaps down

Lshift+F = Flaps up

 

Will not work because the game might see F first therefore you end up not being able to redact the flaps.

 

Instead do:

Rshift+F = Flaps down

Lshift+F = Flaps up

 

Now it will work 100% of the time.

There are only a few commands in IL2 GB to change this way e.g. gear up & down would be one of them as you need to remove the landing gear toggle G command.

 

RS Mapper needs to run in admin mode in order to send commands from the background this is normal behaviour for programs like this. It is the same for e.g. Discord or AutoHotkey.

[GOZR]

I agree Cravis, I hope so but my problem is also the Axis ( as simple as Throttle ), How would I map axis from Keyboard ?  It recognize but do not move..  and that is a serious problem with in IL2

"

Once in 4x32 Mode SimApp Pro basically disables everything and says to test etc. leave 4x32 mode so there is nothing to adjust in SimApp Pro.

It still records button presses and axis movements etc. so you can still see if it works and apparently it does. And in Windows it does too but not in IL2."

 

Yes exactly not in Il2 

Edited June 11, 2022 by GOZR

[Cravis]

No leave it normal mode, then axis work and almost all buttons on throttle and stick.

Then use RS Mapper to map the functions you want to buttons on the base that do not work.

 

Do not use the 4x32 mode.

[GOZR]

18 hours ago, Cravis said:

No leave it normal mode, then axis work and almost all buttons on throttle and stick.

Then use RS Mapper to map the functions you want to buttons on the base that do not work.

 

Do not use the 4x32 mode.

I will try this  Thanks

 

[GOZR]

On 6/11/2022 at 6:58 AM, Cravis said:

No leave it normal mode, then axis work and almost all buttons on throttle and stick.

Then use RS Mapper to map the functions you want to buttons on the base that do not work.

 

Do not use the 4x32 mode.

  Ok I tried impossible to map Axis ... it's IL2 that is not working right .. fix??/

 

[Cravis]

I wouldn't know. If the axis work in SimApp Pro and Windows they should probably work in IL2. I at least have no issue with the main axis. What gives me trouble are the rotary switches in axis mode but that was kind of to be expected to be honest. I ended up using those in switch mode for IL2 and map them via RS Mapper and that works just fine.

But the main axis all work for me with no issue and no special tricks or anything.

[GOZR]

Cravis in windows the WInwing axis work .. in DCS all work but in IL2 nothing..  It can recognize the axis when I choose it for the Pitch yaw but in the sim cockpit it is not working at all.

[Cravis]

Hu interesting... honestly I have no idea then. 

One of the great weakness of WinWing is that it is a Chinese company. I had 0 luck with heir support system.

Or could ask on r/hotas

[Sokol1]

 

15 hours ago, GOZR said:

Cravis in windows the WInwing axis work .. in DCS all work but in IL2 nothing..  It can recognize the axis when I choose it for the Pitch yaw but in the sim cockpit it is not working at all.

 

Already tested renaming the file "Devices.txt"?

[GOZR]

On 6/15/2022 at 3:40 PM, Sokol1 said:

HaaaThank you  (E:\IL-2 Sturmovik Great Battles\data\input)

 

Already tested renaming the file "Devices.txt"?

 

OK by deleting the Device.txt it 's working now !!!!!!!  Ho man Sokol1  !!!  Great it's cool   Haa finally  Super thanks for this reminder

Edited June 17, 2022 by GOZR

[Cravis]

Wait do I get this right? If you delete/rename devices.txt IL2 will find the Winwing in 4x32 Button mode correctly?

[GOZR]

By deleting the file it force Il2 to rediscover all Devices .. and the Throttle Axis work now ..   will check on 4x32 

[Cravis]

Ahhh didn't know that. Worth a try nativ support would be better than going via RS Mapper.

[ACG_PanzerVI]

I tried loading up SimAppPro and it lit my security software up like a Christmas tree.  Recommend not using, and/or uninstalling thoroughly.  As you stated, its a Chinese company, and I am an untrusting person.  Interested to see whether I can use the throttle w/o the software.  The primary axis and two large silver slides seem to work fine, but the three-way switches in particular seem totally borked.  If I read the thread right, I can use this RS Mapper to simply build, essentially, keyboard macros for them so the function in IL2?   What are the issues with this approach?  

[Hoss]

TMWH!.......works great.........................

[Cravis]

On 6/26/2022 at 7:04 PM, ACG_PanzerVI said:

I tried loading up SimAppPro and it lit my security software up like a Christmas tree.  Recommend not using, and/or uninstalling thoroughly.  As you stated, its a Chinese company, and I am an untrusting person. 

 

Had no issue with that using BitDefender.

 

On 6/26/2022 at 7:04 PM, ACG_PanzerVI said:

 If I read the thread right, I can use this RS Mapper to simply build, essentially, keyboard macros for them so the function in IL2?   What are the issues with this approach?  

 

Yes that is what this is. You set you keyboard short cuts and then use RS Mapper to map those to joystick buttons. It is a work around.

I used that because I couldn't get the 4x32 mode to work properly as it kept connecting/disconnecting. The issue was that the HOTAS was on a USB hub. Once I connected it to a USB interface directly on the Mainboard that went away.

The issue with that method is simply that you no longer map you function directly in the sim but outside in a different program. RS mapper also needs to run when using it and there are issues with certain modifiers especially when using the same base key. e.g.  g to extend gear, shift+g to retract gear did not work for me.

Using a native function is just more comfortable.

To fix my issue back then I had to connect the HOTAS directly to the Mainboard and delete devices.txt of il2, switch to 4x32 mode in SimAppPro and start IL2. Worked fine.

 

Using past tense because currently I'm having issues again. After upgrading my PC and updating the firmware of the Orion 2 currently a lot of buttons no longer work in 4x32 mode. ?

Currently trying to figure that out an that is why I found this old topic again and answered you question.

[aerotorc]

Just tried again after a windows reinstall. It seems that IL2 still does not support more than 32 buttons per controller, nor more than eight controllers.

 

So I can choose to have the Orion in 4x32 mode and randomly hope that all four (or at least the first) controller gets intialised before too many other controllers do, or I can leave the Orion in normal mode and just not use any of the buttons or rotaries. Or I suppose the Devs would say I can just unplug my sidestick and second throttle quadrant, who needs those for a WWII sim anyway? But then when I plug them back in for another sim it will change the controller order and I'll need to rebind my keys for IL2!

 

That is the problem I think you have Cravis - the controller order has changed and now the sim can't see the bits of the Orion you're trying to use.

 

I can't believe this is still a problem!!!

[SIA_Sp00k]

Not sure how its "their" problem.

[Sokol1]

On 6/11/2022 at 4:52 AM, Cravis said:

RS Mapper

 

There just some things to notice: The program or IL2 has a strange behaviour when sending or reading modified key commands.

It basically boils down to never have a function mapped to a basic key and a modified version of it:

 

E.g.:

F = Flaps down

Lshift+F = Flaps up

 

Will not work because the game might see F first therefore you end up not being able to redact the flaps.

 

The issue is caused by the timing in what game code see key press send by external softwares - happens with other keymapper too.

The solution is use a keymapper with "delay" between the key press - what RSMapper allow in "sequences".

 

First create a "sequence", set a delay - 10ms work OK for me, after set what button will trigger the "sequence".

 

So can use the default keys set of the game.

 

 

 

[Cravis]

Ah so that is how that works.

I didn't get why I couldn't select a "macro" and only had single button press as option. So sequences basically need to be first configurated separatly and then be selected.

 

On 12/17/2022 at 2:12 PM, Cravis said:

 

Using past tense because currently I'm having issues again. After upgrading my PC and updating the firmware of the Orion 2 currently a lot of buttons no longer work in 4x32 mode. ?

 

A simple update just so if someone has the same issue and searches the web.

 

I solved my issue with the 4x32 mode. Again.

I don't know what was really going on, having no idea and finding nothing on the web (as seems rather common with WinWing) I simply decided to do the firmware update again.

Strangely the firmware update this time around worked differently. Could have been that the first one was botched but I would assume a botched fimrware update would result in a bricked device.

The first time I did it I clicked on the firmware update button, the device was disconnected automatically and the progress bar basically jumped instantly to 100% after which nothing really happened anymore. I waited for some time and then manually disc- and reconnected the device after which the SimAppPro actually started the Update properly with a slowly increasing progress bar and after finishing the update disc- and reconnecting the device automatically.

This time however the device was disconnected by SimAppPro automatically, then the update was slowly installed and after the update was complete the device was automatically reconnected.

Anyway now all but three buttons work in the device manager. The three buttons not working are the rotary switches on the throttle base that are not assigned as the Rz axis. The throttle base as 4 (HMD, Panel LTS, HDG, CRS) of those switches and only one can be assigned as Rz, the one assigned works the others do not.

I suspect this is normal for some reason?

Anyway buttons that are not on the same device as the axis in the windows game device manager do not show up in SimAppPro as working. Regardless they work in the game device manager and therefore in games. 

I then used DeviceLister to read the GUID of devices with working buttons and then DeviceReorder to prevent IL2 from detecting the devices without working buttons. 

I deleted my devices.txt and started IL2GB.

Now I am able to bind all commands directly to the HOTAS buttons again.

 

[Hoss]

Delete your input folder and restart the game..... let it recompile your devices and start over........ My TMWH throttle, stick, MFG Crosswinds never get plugged into my REALSIM Powered hub. Always make sure you get a Mobo with no less than eight rear USB ports.

Keyboard, mouse, printer, Stick, throttle, pedals TIR, get plugged into Mobo.... GVL R/P/Y trim box and BlackHog are plugged into the Hub and work well so far. I'm sure you will figure it out 

[Virus*]

Is this issue still in il2?I mean the 32 button devices limit?

Thanks

[KpaxBos]

IL2 recognizes 64 buttons per device.

Have fun.

[Virus*]

On 12/6/2023 at 5:07 PM, KpaxBos said:

IL2 recognizes 64 buttons per device.

Have fun.

I cannot have fun, as more than 64 buttons support is needed.

This morning I tried to bind my new system (winwing orion 2 throttle and stick) and the throttle buttons like flap switch, gear switch etc are recognized as povs and then don't work in game.

So Il2 does recognize something from the controls but then it doesn't work...all these years and they didn't fix this.

It was the same with my previous orion 1....a real shame...BMS, a 20 years old sim managed to support 128 buttons devices and they, a well established game company cannot....

 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Virus*

[jollyjack]

Have you checked and eventually fized your ID numbers?

 

devices.txt in the input folder, clean unused USB devices with USBdeview, JoyID for swaps, and in Windows setup USB game controllers ...

Edited December 9, 2023 by jollyjack

[Virus*]

57 minutes ago, jollyjack said:

Have you checked and eventually fized your ID numbers?

 

devices.txt in the input folder, clean unused USB devices with USBdeview, JoyID for swaps, and in Windows setup USB game controllers ...

Yeah, I removed every device there and started from scratch when I received the new stuff.

The only way is to use the damn 4x32 winwing mode for the throttle. The stick works as it has less than 64 buttons, but some assignments are simply not possible with il-2 interface. Like for example the brake axis which has a button also..or the radar elevation whell (which I want to use as elevator trim) in which the center position (which has its own button press) is detected always and so the possible assignments are UP/center or Down/center (so when I release the wheel the trim  always moves)...the only way to fix is manually editing config files. 

[jollyjack]

Curious, looked at the orion2, looks like superclass stuff.

Seems their hardware might not be supported enough by adequate software.

On DCS you might find out more like here: https://forum.dcs.world/topic/299831-winwing-orion-2-is-a-disaster/page/2/

[Virus*]

In DCS and in Falcon BMS it works flawlessly.

I have never encountered any issue like the described ones...

I also have a very new base, with f15ex grips. So maybe they improved their production 

All buttons recognized and no issues without the need to use 4x32buttons mode.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Virus*

[ThePops]

Had the same problems. Got a new PC and tried to map up the joysticks. In normal mode, IL-2 would only recognize some buttons on the throttle as POV in the mapper, but would not recognize them in the game. In 4*32 mode, the one 32 mode with all the axis on the throttle did not show up.

 

IL-2 only recognizes 8 joystick devices, so 4 for the throttle and 4 for the stick is already 8. Then with pedals and a home made pedal braking system, this would be 10. No matter how I connected this stuff in USB, either all the throttle axis would be gone or I would lose brake or rudder. Really annoying, since it worked on my old PC. Tried to manually edit the devices.txt file to map up only what's needed. Once IL-2 starts up however, it would remap everything, and completely mess up the file.

 

Then I (finally) remembered how. IL-2 recognizes more than 32 buttons, perhaps 64? don't know. The clue is that IL-2 does indeed recognize all the buttons on the WinWIng stick in normal mode, as normal buttons that also work in the game. It's only necessary to put the throttle in 4*32 mode. This will be 7 devices in all, and it's all fine. When experimenting with this, I found that sometimes even rebooting is necessary when switching between normal and 4*32 buttons mode.  

 

It would be nice if IL-2 did recognize 128 buttons though as, everything else seems to do.

 

Then the perhaps even more annoying problem, is the mapping software of IL-2. It recognizes everything as single press buttons. A two or three way switch, as these WinWings are loaded with, is obviously not recognized properly. Such a switch can have several different configurations (in real life), but the "basic" ones are:

 

on:on:on for three way switches and on:on for two way. A "normal" three way switch will have three states: on:off:off, off:on:off and off:off:on. The problem with IL-2 mapping software is, it doesn't differentiate between going from on to off between going from off to on. More often than not, when going from the center position to the left position for instance, it will recognize the center "button" going off instead of the left "button" going on. The latter is obviously what you want. Typical 4 way switches are usually OK, because they usually don't have a separate on/off state in the center position. Knowing this, it is possible to use the mapping software without manual editing (as far as I remember), but not without several tries. Normally a button would go off before the other one goes on, but it's probably only 70% of the time. In some cases it's almost impossible to get one particular button to show up (it will always recognize the center button going either on or off before it recognizes the left button doing anything, really annoying).

 

Another nice feature of these WinWIngs (and probably others?) is the possibility to map buttons to axis positions. For instance a slider axis can work as a slider AND as a three way button. But to get the mapping software to differentiate between buttons and axis movements is downright impossible. You either have to manually edit the file or turn the button mapping off in SimAppPro, map the axis first, then turn the button mapping on again and map the buttons.

 

A nice feature with IL-2 though is the way brakes works. The mixing of a brake lever on the stick (or throttle for that matter)with rudder pedals is simply fantastic, and a feature no other sims seems to have, or even the possibility of fudging it somehow.

[KpaxBos]

Hello,

"""

In some cases it's almost impossible to get one particular button to show up (it will always recognize the center button going either on or off before it recognizes the left button doing anything, really annoying).

"""

Had same problem with VKB STECS 3 ways button. To solve this, with the VKBCFG config software, I disabled the center position. After, I could map the up/down button.

This is my workaround.

 

BR