The announcement of the bubble canopy Spit XIV prompted me to fly the standard model some more.

[BlitzPig_EL]

What am I doing wrong?   Compared to my normal late war ride, the P51B, this thing feels like a slug.  It is a light airframe, and had at least 300+ more BHP than the Merlin powered Mustang, but I can't get the thing to get out of it's own way.  I'm normally good with engine management, but I can't make the "fourteen" sing.  I realize the Spitfire is not as aerodynamic as the Mustang, but it feels like trying to push a barn door through the air.  I'm at a dead end with her, any suggestions?

[Avimimus]

Fly it more? Do more conversion work? Learn the intricacies of how it responds and oscillates at different airspeeds. IMHO, a lot of it is just getting used to it and exploring how it responds to different inputs.

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

It's got noticeable input lag in it's elevator. Pull your stick back and you'll notice there's a pause before the plane starts to pitch up. Also to make it worse the plane pulls G's much slower than the other planes, so you'll have 2 delays every time you try to move your elevator. First to get it to start moving, and second for the nose to "catch up" to your sticks input. That's why it feels bad.

 

This old topic goes into more detail:

 

[357th_KW]

Hopefully it’s FM will be due for a second look.

[oc2209]

9 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

What am I doing wrong?   Compared to my normal late war ride, the P51B, this thing feels like a slug.  It is a light airframe, and had at least 300+ more BHP than the Merlin powered Mustang, but I can't get the thing to get out of it's own way.  I'm normally good with engine management, but I can't make the "fourteen" sing.  I realize the Spitfire is not as aerodynamic as the Mustang, but it feels like trying to push a barn door through the air.  I'm at a dead end with her, any suggestions?

 

Is this just about performance (speed and acceleration), or about handling too?

 

What's the max speed you can attain at sea level, for example? Compare with and without 150 octane and the P-51B, etc.

[354thFG_Panda_]

8 hours ago, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

It's got noticeable input lag in it's elevator. Pull your stick back and you'll notice there's a pause before the plane starts to pitch up. Also to make it worse the plane pulls G's much slower than the other planes, so you'll have 2 delays every time you try to move your elevator. First to get it to start moving, and second for the nose to "catch up" to your sticks input. That's why it feels bad.

 

This old topic goes into more detail:

 

Agreed, similar to p47 for some reason despite being a much lighter plane than the p51B (which handles like a dream). Makes you have to pull in advance to time manoeuvres right like you are playing the simulator in 30fps. Sometimes the elevator has a mind of its own and does its own thing (nothing to do with joystick). A notable thing is that the weight did significantly increase from the IX. Maybe when trying to distinguish it's FM from the other ones they went a bit too far with inertial modelling. Other than that they managed to portray it's performance and characteristics pretty well

Edited May 21, 2022 by theRedPanda

[BlitzPig_EL]

Only talking about speed here gents.  I don't expect it to handle like a Mk.V.  One would expect with 150 octane fuel, and around 2000bhp and lighter all up weight than a Mustang, that it would accelerate like a monster, but for me it doesn't.   I can get the Mustang to 300+ mph easily at low altitudes, but I have to drag the XIV kicking and screaming to get it over 200.  It's feels like it is a Mk. I underneath that pretty exterior.

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

Must be some type of user error like leaving your landing gear down, or damaging your engine somehow. I have to constantly cut throttle/pop flaps just for average maneuvers in this plane because it's an acceleration beast and I'll easily overspeed.

[No105_Swoose]

I have pre-ordered the "teardrop" canopy Mark XIV more as a small show of support for Jason and the developers than any fondness for the Mark XIV.  I agree with many of the comments made in this thread and have experienced what I consider downsides of this plane. I consider it a challenge to fly.  I'm 27 missions into a PWCG career with No 41 Squadron and have managed through persistence to have some success.  This is my fourth try at a Mark XIV campaign.  In the others I rarely lasted past five missions.  To its credit, when it does finally manage to get its speed up, it is quite fast and I'm easily able to catch up with and shoot down 190s, 109s, and 262s.  The problem, as many have noted, is that it seems to take such a long time to accelerate.  I found the Spitfire Mark IX to handle better, be more maneuverable, and still have decent speed.  But that's the great thing about IL-2 Great Battles: if one plane doesn't work out for you there are so many more others to try.  My two cents.  Swoose

[BlitzPig_EL]

Nope, I'm no n00b. Aircraft is clean and trimmed out, and I'm very conservative with my engines, I watch powerset, pitch and temps like a hawk.  I'll play with it some more.

[EAF19_Marsh]

Odd, should pretty damn fast. And elevator response should be a bit too much rather than too little. Not flown it much, TBH.

 

Would love a Mk. VIII…

 

Enjoying the Typhoon and cannot exactly say why.

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

If you're being conservative are you flying it in its cruise setting? Cruise is very weak. I cruise around in max combat all the time since it lasts 1 hour and I prefer shorter flights and staying fast, and don't care about conserving fuel for hour long flights.

[[CPT]Crunch]

Really wonky with full nose up trim, hard to believe an aircraft would behave that way, slightest back pressure on the stick full trimmed and it literally tumbles out of the sky.  Overall the trim seems quite useless on this frame, it's a negative to trim for a normal expected flight maneuver. 

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

I like to keep it with nose down trim (at least +50% in techochat) and don't aim for hands free flying, to try and tame the runaway nose.

[76IAP-Black]

Not sure, but the XIV doesnt feel as right as other planes do with the respective FM.

 

Maybe the plane will get a slightly FM revision for the collectors edition.

 

Same with the sound.

[oc2209]

6 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Only talking about speed here gents.  I don't expect it to handle like a Mk.V.  One would expect with 150 octane fuel, and around 2000bhp and lighter all up weight than a Mustang, that it would accelerate like a monster, but for me it doesn't.   I can get the Mustang to 300+ mph easily at low altitudes, but I have to drag the XIV kicking and screaming to get it over 200.  It's feels like it is a Mk. I underneath that pretty exterior.

 

I don't quite understand how this is happening for you.

 

I just took the XIV out on the Lapino autumn map, tried it with and with both manual engine control and automatic (as in, the kind set in the sim menu), and in both cases I was able to reach 360 MPH on the deck without 150 octane. It didn't seem to take especially long to reach 350, and getting over 300 wasn't an issue at all.

 

I can't even guess what the issue is, since so many of the Spitfire's engine functions are automated (regardless of sim settings).

[oc2209]

Here's a clip where I took off from a cold start, taxi, with all engine and plane control set to manual.

 

Spoiler

 

 

I hilariously ground looped twice going to the runway. I only had throttle set to 11%, so no damage was done.

 

Other dumb thing I did: forgot to close my canopy. I haven't flown any plane in a little over 2 weeks, so I'm quite daft until I get back into a rhythm.

 

Point being: I'm fiddling with the RPM towards the end because I can't figure out why I'm not hitting 360 MPH like I did before during an airstart. I didn't have my headphones on at the time of recording, so the sound of air whistling isn't a clue for me. I only realized the canopy was open after I watched the recording.

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

5 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Nope, I'm no n00b. Aircraft is clean and trimmed out, and I'm very conservative with my engines, I watch powerset, pitch and temps like a hawk.  I'll play with it some more.

 

If you have the plane trimmed for as close to "hands free" level flight as you can get but, are still getting no speed at standard max-continuous settings, it sounds to me that you might have the elevator over-trimmed.   Set it as you have been doing and then 1% or 2% at a time trim the nose down then fly for a little bit with the new setting before making another adjustment.  See if you can get a higher straight and level speed with less tail-heavy trim but, not so much nose-heavy that you have to pull back on the stick keep it level.   

 

 

[BlitzPig_EL]

Thanks for the tips Gents.  I'll keep working on it.

[dannytherat]

This might be a silly observation, but I've been caught out a few times with the Mk.XIV by the fact that in Quick start missions that start on the runway the XIV is always sitting there with prop set to minimum RPM rather than maximum.

If you try and take off and climb out in that condition (due to not noticing or whatever) it becomes a very very slow and drawn out ordeal.

[Vishnu]

I fly on automatic.  Problem solved.  ?

[BlitzPig_EL]

I always fly manual, and always check pitch after startup, and I rarely fly in the QMB.

[357th_KW]

14 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Only talking about speed here gents.  I don't expect it to handle like a Mk.V.  One would expect with 150 octane fuel, and around 2000bhp and lighter all up weight than a Mustang, that it would accelerate like a monster, but for me it doesn't.   I can get the Mustang to 300+ mph easily at low altitudes, but I have to drag the XIV kicking and screaming to get it over 200.  It's feels like it is a Mk. I underneath that pretty exterior.

 

Just for giggles I did an acceleration test just now, Kuban autumn, 150 ft, both planes using 150 octane fuel and 50% fuel load.  I measured their acceleration from 200-250-300-350mph.  For the P-51D I got 10.83 seconds, 15.07 seconds, 27.78 seconds for 53.69 total.  The Spit XIV got 8.86 seconds, 12.42 seconds, 29.22 seconds for 50.50 total.  You can see the Spit has a significant advantage at the low end of the speed range, but the Mustang claws it back as it gets towards top speed due to its aerodynamic advantage (and resulting faster top speed on the deck).

[oc2209]

3 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

 and I rarely fly in the QMB.

 

Does this even matter, though?

 

There should be no difference in a plane's performance from online to career to QMB. The only thing I can think of is default starting positions of trim; but if you manually adjust your trim anyway, that also shouldn't matter.

 

Just to be thorough, I started in QMB (again, with all automatic AI control turned off) and used default trim settings once (which are not zeroed), and then manually set all trim to zero percent for the second test. There was no significant speed difference.

 

I also held the stick to full speed; I didn't turn on autolevel like last time. This was the result with 150 octane (and a closed canopy):

 

Spoiler

 

The only engine adjustment I make after taking off, is setting RPM to 75%. Throttle to 100%, naturally. That's it.

[Weegie]

Watching this with interest too as I find once I get slow, its a dog.

 

Purely anectodal but it doesn't seem to be turn fighter, it's horrible in a turn fight for me.

 

Start flying straight and level for a short period and it's off like a scalded cat.

 

I'm interested though in any scraps thrown my way though to improve it

[BlitzPig_EL]

I think Weegie has hit the crux of the matter.  I did a lot of testing last night on my server, running a mission against a LOT of enemy AI attacking an airfield.  Yes I can get to that AO a bit faster from my takeoff field in the Mk.XIV than in a 51B in RAF 80" configuration, but once I engage with the Spit it all goes downhill fast.  With the Mustang I can slaughter the AI because it is very much more well rounded, giving me options for engagement that the late Spitfire simply doesn't.  Very much like a late 109, the Spit suffers from it's mid 1930's design roots.  Like the late 109s it is very one dimensional, if you mix it up, even a little, you are done, whereas with the 51B's slicker aero I can get into, and out of, situations where in the Spit I get shredded.  The clipped wing version is a bit better, for me, and I was doing a bit better than before, but it still doesn't hold a candle to the Mustang in the virtual airspace. 

 

In the real war of late 1944/early 1945, the Spit was no doubt an excellent choice, with the Allies having total air superiority, and what was left of the Luftwaffe pilot cadre sitting around looking at a bunch of aircraft with empty fuel tanks.  But in the video world in which we play, which is a far cry from the reality of the air war as actually fought, well, it's just not for me I guess.

 

I will keep trying, as I know I can do better in it though.

Edited May 22, 2022 by BlitzPig_EL

[[LeLv34]Lykurgos88]

Spitfire XIV is the king in mobility and has the best speed of all aircraft (except Me-262) above 7000 meters. Below 6000 it is only surpassed by Tempest (and P-51B in some cases).

Something is definitely wrong if it feels underpowered.

[Irishratticus72]

Have you tried turning it off and on again? 

[Weegie]

1 hour ago, dogefighter said:

Literally out-rates every single Axis fighter in it's heaviest configuration without 150oct.

You are most likely right as I'm

A) Rubbish

B) Going on feel

 

It might be able to turn faster than other aircraft but what I feel is the huge loss of energy and it stays that way until I fly straight or dive.

 

I 'm sure it's me and just don't know how to fight with it, that's why I'm here asking for help

 

I've seen various reports that IRL many pilots preferred the IX as the XIV was no longer "balanced" and was more of a brute force tool (whatever that means)

[BlitzPig_EL]

I think I'm getting the hang of it now...

 

Same mission against ace AI attacking an Allied airfield.  Victims include 190 A6s and A8s, 109G14s, and Ju88C6s.  Up to this point I was lucky to survive with 2 kills before I was swatted out of the sky.  I realize this is just against AIs, but it's a repeatable way to compare my flying with various different aircraft.

 

 

 

 

It is a pretty thing.

 

[Algy-Lacey]

IIRC then Spitfires should have very good energy retention in turns, better than a P-51 anyway. This certainly seems to be true (in game) for the Mk Vb and Mk IX, less so for the Mk XIV. Can this be put down to the higher wing loading of the Mk XIV?

 

From my experience of flying the Mk XIV in game, it didn't 'feel' right, roll response seemed to be less than a Mk IX (even though the Mk XIV had redesigned ailerons and should have better roll rate) and it didn't turn as I expected it would. Also, in low speed / high throttle situations, it departed (into a spin) very easily, I even managed to get it into inverted flat spins (!). I have no idea if this last point is realistic.

 

I believe that @ZachariasX has actually flown a Spitfire and he said (my own memory, not a quote) that the Mk XIV should respond to elevator input instantly and directly, which is certainly not what we have in game.

 

If the Spitfire Mk XIV is slow to respond to elevator stick inputs then this should be corrected by the developers. Perhaps whilst they work on the 3d model of the bubble canopy Mk XIV they can tweak the FM.

 

Maybe we should start a petition / poll?

 

Algy-Lacey

[ZachariasX]

18 minutes ago, Algy-Lacey said:

Maybe we should start a petition / poll?

 

Algy-Lacey

As you were referencing my comment (quiet correctly), all I can say is that I that I am absolutely positive the devs are perfectly aware of what we are talking about here. And that they want to make things right given the possibility. It is easy to find things that are seemingly off. But having had the priviledge of flying such aircraft, I also see a lot of things they do spot on. And ultimately, that is what matters to me.

[354thFG_Panda_]

2 hours ago, Algy-Lacey said:

IIRC then Spitfires should have very good energy retention in turns, better than a P-51 anyway. This certainly seems to be true (in game) for the Mk Vb and Mk IX, less so for the Mk XIV. Can this be put down to the higher wing loading of the Mk XIV?

 

From my experience of flying the Mk XIV in game, it didn't 'feel' right, roll response seemed to be less than a Mk IX (even though the Mk XIV had redesigned ailerons and should have better roll rate) and it didn't turn as I expected it would. Also, in low speed / high throttle situations, it departed (into a spin) very easily, I even managed to get it into inverted flat spins (!). I have no idea if this last point is realistic.

 

I believe that @ZachariasX has actually flown a Spitfire and he said (my own memory, not a quote) that the Mk XIV should respond to elevator input instantly and directly, which is certainly not what we have in game.

 

If the Spitfire Mk XIV is slow to respond to elevator stick inputs then this should be corrected by the developers. Perhaps whilst they work on the 3d model of the bubble canopy Mk XIV they can tweak the FM.

 

Maybe we should start a petition / poll?

 

Algy-Lacey

IIRC the XIV is based on the VIII airframe which has reduced aileron size and loss of roll rate.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit8tac.html

Edited May 22, 2022 by theRedPanda

[oc2209]

7 hours ago, Weegie said:

It might be able to turn faster than other aircraft but what I feel is the huge loss of energy and it stays that way until I fly straight or dive.

 

I 'm sure it's me and just don't know how to fight with it, that's why I'm here asking for help

 

I've seen various reports that IRL many pilots preferred the IX as the XIV was no longer "balanced" and was more of a brute force tool (whatever that means)

 

It's important to always remember that the IX and the XIV are essentially two different planes with two different purposes.

 

The IX is arguably the greatest pure dogfighter of the war, in terms of its combination of top speed, climb rate, turn rate, and overall ease of handling.

 

By contrast, the XIV is nowhere near the best dogfighter. It climbs exceptionally well. It has a high top speed. That's it. The XIV is best suited to hit and run attacks where it can pick and choose how and when it fights. It can disengage from virtually any situation. The IX's top speed isn't sufficient to dictate terms of battle in the same way; that's its only real drawback. 

 

I tested this in-game. Using the exact same escape maneuver, the XIV succeeded versus 8 Fw-190A-8s, while the IX was nailed before it could get cleanly away.

 

Here's the XIV example:

 

Spoiler

 

 

[357th_KW]

If only some experienced pilots in WWII were tasked with analyzing the strengths and weaknesses of new aircraft and had spent time directly comparing the Mk IX with the Mk XIV.

Hmmmmm

 

[Weegie]

2 hours ago, VBF-12_KW said:

If only some experienced pilots in WWII were tasked with analyzing the strengths and weaknesses of new aircraft and had spent time directly comparing the Mk IX with the Mk XIV.

Hmmmmm

 

Really interesting thanks

 

Some points there I don't recognize from the model in the game

 

I still enjoy spending time with it all the same and getting some understanding of its quirks, I do believe I'm improving a little

[BlitzPig_EL]

This bit made me chuckle...

 

Quote

Landing
9. The landing run is slightly longer and the aircraft sinks rather more rapidly than a Spitfire IX on landing. In all other respects the landing is quite normal and very easy. There is no tendency to swing.

 

[easterling77]

no tendency to swing???^^...the biggest moment of fear to me in a spit is coming home especially in the XIV

Edited May 23, 2022 by easterling77

[Noisemaker]

6 hours ago, easterling77 said:

no tendency to swing???^^...the biggest moment of fear to me in a spit is coming home especially in the XIV

I find the XIV swings less than the IX or Vb  Getting it on the runway, however...!  In my experience the XIV will happily float 1m above the runway at 80mph until which point you either give a bit of nose forward pitch, or she just drops like a rock, and then she'll spring back up to 9m to have a fun little hop along down the rest of the runway.  As soon as I finally have all three wheels on the ground, then it's flaps up and brake, and she barely requires any rudder input to keep her straight.

 

[Livai]

On 5/21/2022 at 12:25 AM, BlitzPig_EL said:

this thing feels like a slug

 

for a brick this thing flew pretty good, my experience