For those who think trees cant damage a tank

[SCG_judgedeath3]

I know some people here who arent in the military or driven a armoured veichle or tank into trees argue back and forth that trees cant damage a tank and they should be able to cut them down like grass.

Here is from the recent militracks show in the netherlands near france this year where the owner of a restored Nashorn was taking part in it and it hit a tree which ruined the final drive amongst other parts (and it was a 2 ton tree from what I can find from the show and owners facebook page) so not the biggest of trees, but here are showcase of damages:





One of the owners at work, have removed the drive sprocket, and is cutting away some of the tracks in preparation to get it moved and back to their workshop for repairs and is at the moment looking for tips or if someone who owns a panzer III final drive that they want to buy and fix the nashorn with.

Edited May 18, 2022 by SCG_judgedeath3

[Guest deleted@188321]

Conflating "tracking" the tank with the full on critical damage received in the game.

Ya, no.

Stop finding ways to defend poor game design my dude.

[LachenKrieg]

Do you have a link to the story behind these pictures. I don't use facebook, but borrowed my wife's account to search Miltracks page, and couldn't find anything. I did find a YouTube video the showed that vehicle being towed by a recovery vehicle at what looked like the recent Miltracks, but both tracks were intact as it was being towed.

 

But this being a restored vehicle could be implicated in the damage. It is hard to say from those pictures how the damage was caused to the rubber rollers. Is that damage resulting from the vehicle becoming de-tracked? And if the owner really is looking for PzIII parts to fix a Nashorn, that might be part of the problem and could explain why it falls apart when it hits a tree. The Nashorn is built on a PzIV chassis. Some of the parts needed to rebuild WWII armor would have to be manufactured by hand, because replacement parts are no longer available. He might have lost a final drive hitting a tree, but that doesn't say anything about the condition of the final drive before he hit the tree. Tanks could withstand being hit by projectiles traveling at 600+ m/s. I'm just trying to get my head around the shock wave from that compared to a tree.

 

There is no shortage of YouTube videos showing WWII armored vehicles back in the day going through walls, brick houses, trees and so on. Can things break on an armored vehicle, sure, but you won't hear of too many final drives being ripped out because you bumped a tree in a tank. It would have to be a really big tree, big enough to stop a 30+ton tank in its tracks. I would say in low gear, it would be very hard if not next to impossible to do that unless just the track on one side hit a big enough object (very large tree) so that all the stress from the weight of the vehicle was transferred to that spot.

 

Your original claim in relation to this topic was that you damaged engine parts/hoses among other things by bumping into something (can't remember exactly what). I'm not saying that your exaggerating, but the videos I showed of tanks knocking down trees, or flattening cars at road speed does make me want to scratch my head a little.

 

Your assumption that others here don't have any background in this from which to speak from would be made in error! But you don't have to rely on old WWII footage if you want to see examples of what happens when a heavy tracked vehicles bumps into a tree, just google various topics related to the forestry industry. The vehicles used there will not only knock the trees down for you, they will also put them into nice neat piles for you.

Edited May 19, 2022 by LachenKrieg

[SCG_judgedeath3]

1 hour ago, LachenKrieg said:

Do you have a link to the story behind these pictures

I dont have but can copy of what was said from the owner Jack of all trades in the comments in the tank group I follow:




From what I read what happened on what has been written in the group:
They were driving the Nashorn at the event in the morning of first day when they got problem with the propshaft and asked the belgian army for help with towing it for the audience to the field. They later got it going again and was also aided with being towed when they accidently drove into a tree with the drive sprocket which ripped off the final drive and sprocket which also bent the tracks and had to remove those and tow it completely to the local museum, while they are looking for that part they need while they are fixing the damage:


Here is the exact part they look for, the rest he say they can repair and recreate/build new parts for:



 

1 hour ago, LachenKrieg said:

The Nashorn is built on a PzIV chassis

Actually Nashorn is built on the Panzer III/IV chassis which was a protoype for a hybrid which would have sloped armour and easier to produce and shared parts between Panzer III and IV.
https://thedailybounce.net/historical/tank-destroyer-hornisse-aka-nashorn/

Its not impossible that you say is correct that since its parts rebuilt, new produced parts with some originals, afterall the propshaft had issues after they drove around with it at the event in the morning. Owner however say it was due to the tree hit the sprocket which caused the damage and ripping the sprocket and final drive off.

Tanks is of course like you say able to cut down trees and such as you explain, the danger is mostly 2 areas:
1: You want to hit the tree with the hull or armoured part of the tank in the correct way/angle, never with the sprocket or roadwheels as that risks damaging those parts. Can check in this thread for other abram tankers saying the same thing:
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=117910
As long as one dont have the sprocket hitting the object but the hull, one is mostly fine.
2: You hit an object that cause the tank to get to a halt so the gearbox, wires, all the soft parts so to speak of the engine take the G-forces, it can cause damage to the tank or the crew, so as long as the tank dont get to a suddent decrease in speed/dead stop the tank is fine.

I wont go into a discussion about this as its tiresome to hear its impossible, no tank or armoured veichle can get damaged hwoever done against small rocks, trees, tracks cant ever get derailed or damaged etc when myself and others have had such things happen, its rare yes but not impossible.

[moustache]

Of course tanks aren't indestructible, but when you're barely driving at 10km/h with a panther on a tree barely wider than the gun, you hit it with the bottom of the hull and it stays upright , damaging transmission, engine and caterpillar, all while injuring the crew members, there is an exaggeration... we can make the same remark on the buildings of prokhorovka, where the buildings are destructible, but not the brick chimneys which withstand more than 40 tons...

 

on some parts, it's even sometimes bushes that hurt the tank..

[SCG_judgedeath3]

Hahaha of course yes ? Yep, some of the damage is a bit overdone for the speeds, drive too fast and you hit a tree, the tank explodes.... And too many objects that is industrictable. Hopefully once normandy is done they go back and fix some of these issues and improve the damage model and everything in tank crew.

[LachenKrieg]

First of all no one said that tanks can cut trees down like grass as you suggested at the start of your thread.

 

And if you read my last post, you are basically just restating what I just finish saying.

 

You wouldn't normally want to hit anything in a tank because it has the potential to be a lot more harmful to the occupants then it does to the steal hull, but there are many examples of tanks doing exactly that.

 

And lastly, you are showing pictures of an 80 year old piece of equipment that has been resurrected from the grave as the example. I have little doubt that there could be all kinds of issues with a vehicle like that.

 

But thanks for the additional pictures and info.

 

[352ndOscar]

It’s not damage from the trees I can see that I worry about, it’s damage of trees that aren’t there…..

[LachenKrieg]

+1. And that is more or less how the discussion was started several months ago.

 

The initial discussion point was about the amount of damage being done to a Tank when you hit a tree(invisible).

 

The claim that armored vehicles can be easily damaged by bumping into/hitting things to defend what was modeled in-game as being realistic has been debunked.

 

But the invisible object thing I don't think was ever really addressed, and based on the request that players record and submit the location of these things when bumped into leaves me with the impression that it will/can never be fully addressed.

 

Here's to hoping the community doesn't have to deal with that on the upcoming Normandy map.

Edited May 20, 2022 by LachenKrieg

[Vig]

My brother,  driving a Walker Bulldog, attempted to knock down a tree ; the tread walked up the still-standing tree and flipped the tank on its back.

[Guest deleted@188321]

1 hour ago, Vig said:

My brother,  driving a Walker Bulldog, attempted to knock down a tree ; the tread walked up the still-standing tree and flipped the tank on its back.

Panther tank:
44.8 tonnes
6.87m long
3.27m wide
2.99m tall

Tiger tank:

57 tonnes
6.316m long
3.56m wide
3m tall

Bulldog:
23.49 tonnes
5.81m long
3.19m wide
2.72m tall

Seems to me that isn't particularly surprising given the fairly substantial differences in mass and size my dude.

That's not to say you should be able to drive over every tree you encounter... But the critical damage received in game is simply overdone and I don't get why people spend so much time jumping through hoops and doing gymnastics to justify it.

[Vig]

Quote

Seems to me that isn't particularly surprising given the fairly substantial differences in mass and size my dude.

It surprised him!  ?

[LachenKrieg]

How big was the tree? It would be great to link a picture because I would like to be surprised too.

[Yogiflight]

1 hour ago, LachenKrieg said:

How big was the tree? It would be great to link a picture because I would like to be surprised too.

 

[SCG_judgedeath3]

3 hours ago, LachenKrieg said:

How big was the tree? It would be great to link a picture because I would like to be surprised too.

Did you read the link I gave earlier, first post is from a semi instructor, and the rest were stories from others who had experience of tank/armoured veichles vs trees? I think it might be of interest for you It might not explain how and why, not even myself can 100% explain what can and what wont damage a tank besides what I mentioned earlier. I just know from my training to avoid the swedish trees, and especielly to hit them with the drive sprocket or iddler wheels or when changing gear or from the side. Exact qoute from my drill instructor: *Do not drive into trees, besides risking damaging your tank, you will damage the tree and then you have to cut it down and make it into fine fire wood, by hand axe and hand saw! Also avoid rocks due to risk of damaging the thinner armoured floor and all parts in that section, or detracking of your tank or worst case get stuck like a turtle ontop of the rock.*

Typical swedish forest is like this:

Edited May 20, 2022 by SCG_judgedeath3

[LachenKrieg]

1 hour ago, Yogiflight said:

 

Yeah that is what I was thinking.... red wood.

5 minutes ago, SCG_judgedeath3 said:

Did you read the link I gave earlier, first post is from a semi instructor, and the rest were stories from others who had experience of tank/armoured veichles vs trees? I think it might be of interest for you It might not explain how and why, not even myself can 100% explain what can and what wont damage a tank besides what I mentioned earlier. I just know from my training to avoid the swedish trees, and especielly to hit them with the drive sprocket or iddler wheels or when changing gear or from the side. Exact qoute from my drill instructor: *Do not drive into trees, besides risking damaging your tank, you will damage the tree and then you have to cut it down and make it into fine fire wood, by hand axe and hand saw! Also avoid rocks due to risk of damaging the thinner armoured floor and all parts in that section, or detracking of your tank or worst case get stuck like a turtle ontop of the rock.*

Typical swedish forest is like this:

my comment was to the guy and his brother in a American light tank. 23 ton leaning on the tree with 500 horses of pushing power.

 

A lot of the trees in this picture look like they could be knocked down even in a light tank TBH.

 

And no one said you would run into a tree at 15 km/hr. When we were discussing this originally, people were talking about the damage in-game. I myself put up a video of my Tiger hitting a tree in 1st gear and being knocked back about 10 feet with major damage. I was a very staunch supporter of Tank Crew when I first got in, but I also want to see it improve from where it is right now. At a certain point, you have to stop pretending its real to point out what really needs fixing.

 

If you go back, you will see that the driver in the Abrams video I linked walks the nose of the tank onto the tree before applying power and it snaps like a twig. Tanks running over cars at road speed is a cool effect, but there is a reason why you wouldn't want to do that to an object that is less deformable. 

[SCG_judgedeath3]

That wasnt what I was wondering

[LachenKrieg]

Just now, SCG_judgedeath3 said:

That wasnt what I was wondering

?

 

If your talking about the pictures you just posted above, I enjoyed them, but skipped the text because its a little hard to read.

[SCG_judgedeath3]

14 minutes ago, LachenKrieg said:

?

Was in my second post, here you go:
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=117910

Read the post by: ChristopherPerrien

 

Here is another post, I dont know the user but gives a good example of size that caused one tank crew issues, I havent tried it myself but might be interesting:
https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-biggest-tree-a-tank-can-run-over

The Post by:Michael Brown

 

Yep, the damage model from hitting trees in the game is a bit wonky and incorrect and lot of the damages one get is overdone, not arguing that. Should be possible to make it more realistic, and keep it possible to injure the crew and certain aprts of the tank and no exploding tanks from hitting stuff, and avoid how warthunder and WoT do: no damage, or even slowing down to the tank, drive the trees over as if they arent there. xD

Edited May 21, 2022 by SCG_judgedeath3

[LachenKrieg]

@SCG_judgedeath3, Yeah that is interesting and all, but how does someone saying something on the internet compare to actually seeing it in the real?

 

I had lunch with President Biden yesterday. And after lunch, we took a spin in his Ferrari.

 

I'm not saying that the person in the post isn't who/what he says he is. I'm just saying that what other people have shown counters what he is saying. I think its obvious why there would be a general policy not to hit large objects in a tank, but that says nothing regarding whether something can be done, or the discussion we were having.

 

Again, we were discussing the damage model in TC. Like the damage from MG fire that you never see, people have showed that the DM in this game could use a review.  

 

But back to your concerns here, I linked a thread for you specifically that showed an Abrams tank making toothpicks out of a tree. Go back and find the post if you want to revisit the video. Saying tanks aren't bulldozers is correct. A bulldozer is lighter than most heavy tanks, but they knock trees down no problem.

 

The person in the second quote is saying that he knocked standing pine trees 1ft diameter down no problem. But the title is misleading. He doesn't answer the question of what is the largest tree. A 3ft diameter tree is a big fcuking tree. And you would have to be a complete idiot to hit a 3ft hardwood tree like that at 20km. I am surprised no one got hurt in a scenario like that. The question of being able to knock a tree that size down in an Abrams tank though was not answered. All that is alluded to there is a less than intelligent driver damn near killed his crew.

 

The interesting bit you didn't seem to take note of though is that the tank seems to have driven away after they got it started again. But if you want to break something in a tank, that guy's method would be how you would want to go about doing it.

 

But you started your contribution to this topic by saying that it was easy to damage a tank including engine parts by hitting something. I haven't seen you produce anything to prove that.

 

The thing that has me wondering though is usually when someone publicly announces they have real life experience on a topic, they don't normally wait 12 months to try and demonstrate it.

[SCG_judgedeath3]

40 minutes ago, LachenKrieg said:

I'm not saying that the person in the post isn't who/what he says he is. I'm just saying that what other people have shown counters what he is saying.

Counters where in the axis forum? Only see other people adding their own experiences and saying the same things, as some here in this thread has said and myself have.

40 minutes ago, LachenKrieg said:

Again, we were discussing the damage model in TC. Like the damage from MG fire that you never see, people have showed that the DM in this game could use a review.  

No we arent, this thread was done to show the damage this Nashorn got from hitting a tree and that IT IS POSSIBLE to happen. I didnt make it for discussing the DM model of this game or MG videos, that is something you bringed up.

41 minutes ago, LachenKrieg said:

But back to your concerns here, I linked a thread for you specifically that showed an Abrams tank making toothpicks out of a tree

Seen it and it has nothing to do with this thread. Of course a modern Abram tank with a weight of 60+ ton fully loaded at speed against that kind of tree can when done right as that video showed, I havent said anything against it or in this thread. What did this have to do with the topic btw as that is a modern tank and this is a 1944 nashorn?

44 minutes ago, LachenKrieg said:

The question of being able to knock a tree that size down in an Abrams tank though was not answered.

They didnt if you read what he wrote.

46 minutes ago, LachenKrieg said:

The interesting bit you didn't seem to take note of though is that the tank seems to have driven away after they got it started again.

That wasnt the point nor did I say any of these links will have a damaged tank, I said it COULD be of interest to you and see there are others with same experiences, I would count a crew that is bleeding and injuried from hitting a 90cm in diameter tree as showcase of damage in one way.
 

47 minutes ago, LachenKrieg said:

But you started your contribution to this topic by saying that it was easy to damage a tank including engine parts by hitting something. I haven't seen you produce anything to prove that.

Where in this thead or first post in this thread, have I written its easy to damage a tank by hitting something?
I havent shown anything? The pictures of the Nashorns damage and owners texts I would count as something.

I give up on this, I must be imaginating that the Nashorn got damaged and the owner of it too, the Abram that decided to try and cut down the oak tree, or any times a tank get gearbox problems from bad driving/handling of the veichle and accidents out in the field, or my own experiences and my fellow tankers back in 2009 and what our officers and manuals and rules said what we shall never attempt with our tanks/veichles and the mishaps we had during our training never happened.
But apparently everyone who write on the web, people I know, researchers/writers is lying and making up things so theres no way for me or anyone to give insight as its brushed off as: lies or have a agenda, as you also incline me of doing now too.
You are right and your opinion and research done on the web is the only one true truth about armoured veichles, tanks cant ever get any tear or wear no matter how its driven or into any object in existence, maybe at best slow it down but nothing more, they are better than bulldozers. I stand corrected about what tanks can and cant do.

[LachenKrieg]

@SCG_judgedeath3, the title of this thread is:

For those who think trees cant damage a tank

---

And then you followed with: "I know some people here who arent in the military or driven a armoured veichle or tank into trees argue back and forth that trees cant damage a tank and they should be able to cut them down like grass."

 

If I misunderstood your meaning, then I apologize, but I understood the above as a reference to a previous conversation where you also claimed tanks can be easily damaged as your argument to support the unrealistic damage other players, myself included, were seeing.

 

But if I understood the reason for this thread correctly, then it has everything to do with the previous discussion.

 

Yes it is possible to damage a tank.

 

Its is also possible to damage tall buildings by flying fully fueled jetliners into them.

 

So if you started this thread to simply say that a tank can be damaged, who is saying they can't be, and where does the reference to cutting them down like grass come from?

 

Admittedly I am not on the forum as much as I use to be, so I might have missed out on another discussion you had, but it would be an honest mistake on my part if you weren't making a reference to the discussion I was involved in a year or so ago.

 

No one is suggesting that the damaged Nashorn is fake, or didn't happen. Read the original post I made in this thread, and you will see that I give a plausible explanation for the type of damage shown. But again, I contributed here based on the understanding that you were using a refurbished Nashorn example to support what you said previously in another thread about 1 year ago. And the point of the discussion then was that the damage we see by hitting the hull against a tree is unrealistic.

 

Regarding counters, the point is it doesn't matter that someone wrote tanks don't turn trees into toothpicks, because there are numerous videos to show exactly that they do. WWII footage, or otherwise.

 

I said the TOPIC and not this THREAD. Your comments a year ago were that a tank could be easily damaged. You said it happened to you. Damaged hoses/engine parts... But your right, you didn't say that in this thread, you just made a reference to what I thought was the previous discussion. 

[SCG_judgedeath3]

Doesnt matter what I respond with, you are right.

[LachenKrieg]

Not true Judge.

 

You raised a number of very good points.

 

I am just recounting the history of a previous discussion we had with an understanding that it was relevant, it has nothing to do with being right.

 

I still believe as I did then that the DM in this game needs to be reviewed.

 

I understand that you don't feel that way, but I have seen more to counter what your saying then I have that would support it.

 

But I would also like to say that you are absolutely right, the Nashorn did use a number of PzIII parts in its power train. The drive wheels, final drives, brakes, transmission, engine, fuel pump/filter, fan belt drive, and batteries were all taken from PzIII production inventory. Road wheels, wheel mounts, return rollers, suspension, buffer stops, leading wheels, tracks, track tensioner, air filters, radiator, cooling fans, fan drive tensioner, and the muffler were taken from PzIV inventory with a couple other parts being specially made.

 

So I was really happy to learn that thanks to you.

[J2_Oelmann]

Uh went there a week ago and saw it driving around.

[ShampooX]

Isn’t that the same Nashorn that caught fire a few years ago and had to be re-restored?   Cursed tank. 

[SCG_judgedeath3]

8 minutes ago, ShampooActual said:

Isn’t that the same Nashorn that caught fire a few years ago and had to be re-restored?   Cursed tank. 

Yep thats correct.  Very cursed tank  through its history. 

[LachenKrieg]

I thought the start of the linked video demonstrates quite well how tanks are capable of moving through wooded areas. This French tank was only 11 tons, but still capable.

 

 

[Frinik22]

On 5/24/2022 at 6:56 AM, SCG_judgedeath3 said:

Yep thats correct.  Very cursed tank  through its history. 

1) The Nashorn is not a tank but a tank destroyer (Panzerjaeger)

2) I am not sure about being "cursed"but it's credited with the longest kill of WW2 taking out a Sherman at a range of 2800 metres.

[Guest deleted@188321]

On 8/12/2022 at 12:36 PM, LachenKrieg said:

I thought the start of the linked video demonstrates quite well how tanks are capable of moving through wooded areas. This French tank was only 11 tons, but still capable.

 

 

Generally I'm prone to agreeing with you but using CtA as an example? Ehhhh.

[LachenKrieg]

??????... I won't hide the fact that I absolutely love the Ai mechanics in that game, but really it wasn't meant to be a reference for another game. I swear!?

 

When I am here, I am 100% in Tank Crew which I also really like, and hope it can somehow be given the chance it deserves.

 

I know you and I have both been here for all the discussions related to tanks and trees, and I know there are tons of videos showing tanks smashing through buildings, houses, trees, but this one just appeared and I thought it had the right angle to really demonstrate the point in case the Devs here find the time to review the current collision model for trees in Tank Crew.

 

I get how IL2 is primarily a flight SIM, and player controlled ground units are a relatively new thing, and the tree collision model is probably pretty low down on the priority list of things-to-do, but all thumbs up if and when they can get around to looking at it. 

 

BTW, I took your advice and got SFK 1942... Awesome and thanks for the tip!

Edited August 18, 2022 by LachenKrieg

[E69_geramos109]

It seems that this nashorn took a tree directly on the track. I understand that this can broke this traction wheel and the final drive but hitting with a panther a sherman etc a slim tree and getting people injured and engine damage, transmission damage etc is ridiculous. And even more hitting a bush of wooden parts in the villages. 

[Wold]