AI gunnery mod

[Stonehouse]

New version, added B26 gunners and also added the nav/2nd pilot NPC characters to the mod but only in regard to how long the delay is between their death and despawn. Increased delay to 2 mins for these NPC in line with the gunners (as per Vulnerable Gunners mod). I haven't seen any issues but also don't have much time for testing right now so let me know if keeping these NPCs visible causes any issues. 

[Hook_Echo]

On 5/18/2022 at 3:34 AM, Stonehouse said:

Not career as such but the group I fly with use PWCG for our co-op campaigns and we started using a version back in Feb. As it didn't seem to be causing huge issues I felt encouraged to put up the first draft version at the end of April. Don't have stats though, just a general observation that it didn't cause huge issues like the AI force pool being depleted. Getting bounced by Aces in PWCG with this mod is a "WTH?" type moment. If you don't see them coming you tend to only know about it when the bullets arrive. Also not sure if the mod is responsible but with the last two versions I've been seeing P51s doing a lot more vertical fighting than before in the ace level QMB test missions.

 

It would be interesting hear feedback if someone wanted to go through a SP career with it.  

Tried this mod last night. It's wonderful. I flew a Spit IX against two ace K4s a few times which is my usual go to practice fight. They did seem to use the vertical much more. It was great, and made it an actual challenge to fight two K4s as they should actually fight against the Spit. I actually felt a little helpless as I should in that situation. I'm not sure why this would change their tactics, but bravo on a great mod. Thanks so much for your effort.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Hook_Echo
double post

[Stonehouse]

FYI that there have been a number of changes to stock files with the most recent patch and I will need to do an update of the mod. 

Keep you posted.

[Stonehouse]

Updated version available in first post. Didn't have time to completely test all aircraft but as far as I could see new version is working fine. 

[Stonehouse]

I rechecked this mod in detail today and found a few places where the mod was out of sync with the current version of the game. I will be releasing an updated version within the next day or so as a result.

[Stonehouse]

Apologies for the very limited testing this time around. I've builders and plumbers etc in working on my house all next week and I'm really not sure how much time I will get on the pc. Anyway I figured it was better to get it uploaded since I've tried about 15 or 20 AQMB missions very quickly as a spectator without errors. Changes were mainly that some aircraft turrets had limits of travel added, some bots in turrets gained armour in the last patch (B25 for instance) and some other minor changes. 

Edited August 28, 2022 by Stonehouse

[Youtch]

I d love to try both your AI gunnery mod and AAA mod, but they don t seem to be compatible one with each other as they modify the same lua files.

 

The same thing with your other mod with smoke effects, JSME gives me an alert that this is affecting the same files. I like very much the additional smoke, making the battlefield more lively.

 

Any idea on how to combine them?

 

Many thanks in advance!

Edited August 29, 2022 by Youtch

[Stonehouse]

They have common folders but not files. The JSGME warnings are about folders. As far as I am aware the dynamic effects and units is the same. Folders are common but not files. So you should be able to use them all together without issue. Please let me know if the JSGME warning is about a common file as I didn't think they overlapped at the file level.

[Youtch]

-You are right the files seem different, and JSME still gives the warning and grey out the mod.

[Stonehouse]

4 hours ago, Youtch said:

-You are right the files seem different, and JSME still gives the warning and grey out the mod.

Ok so the warning will be about folders already being created by another mod. The mod being greyed out is because of the common folder names. This is because when you disable a mod with jsgme it will remove files and the folders and in this case the folders are the common point - hence the greying out. Anyway it definitely works - I use all three at the same time

[Youtch]

I love this mod, it really makes fighing AI more challenging.

 

I play a 4 vs 12 AI fighters battle mission, which I could always do quite easily. 

 

Now it makes it much more challenging and chances to survive the encounter are very slim, as it is supposed to be.

 

Many thanks again

 

[Stonehouse]

This definitely needs to be updated to suit 5.001. Working on it, hope to have it to you soon.

[Stonehouse]

Ok little bit rushed but new version in first post. With the changes in 5.001 the vulnerable gunners mod is obsolete as the stock game files have reduced the gunner hit points below that in the mod so there has been some simplification to AI Gunnery - which is good for everyone. Less change from stock and less to maintain. Other biggish change was resyncing files due to the new barrel heating logic in 5.001 so every turret definition had to change. Anyway, hope it works ok for everyone. My quick tests over Deal and Dover seemed to work as expected.

[Arv]

I am a VR user, and I prefer Flying Circus because everything is slower and closer. In the WWII theatre I often don't see the enemy before they are in firing range because of my limited resolution. Is there a mod like this for WWI aircraft as well?

[Stonehouse]

The gunners in WW1 aircraft are in the mod but I haven't included the fighters because I wasn't sure of a reasonable set of values for them.

[Stonehouse]

If there are WW1 pilots out there that can supply a value for the max open fire ranges for the 4 skill levels novice, normal, high, ace then I can work out the other values and it can be tested without impact to the WW2 side of things.

 

So, for example of max open fire ranges from WW2:

Novice = 800 m

Normal = 600 m

High = 500 m

Ace = 400m

 

I'd need something that was a reasonable starting point for WW1 

[Stonehouse]

Ok small update. Apologies to the WW2 pilots - somehow, I missed including the Hurricane II in the last update I did after 5.001. Now added.

 

Additionally, I did some reading and have added my first attempt at the WW1 fighters (WW1 gunners were already in).

 

Fair warning, I don't fly the WW1 side very often at all so it will be up to the WW1 people to have a go with it and report back. It definitely does change things as there is much less shooting and lots more maneuvering at higher skill levels, but I am not sure if it is an improvement or not. As in the WW2 side combats can be much longer. I may also need to tweak WW1 gunners some in response to the changes in the fighters. 

At a high level the changes were mostly to the minimum and maximum fire distances and the open fire and stop fire angles. 

 

Novice went from 200 - 250m

Normal went from 250 to 200m

High went from 300 to 150m

Ace went from 400 to 100m

 

Generally, this was based on reading that indicated most aces fired from within 100m (well within for a lot of them, right down to so close they got blood on their aircraft from hitting the crew in the target). Boelcke particularly formalised getting in close to shoot in his rules for his Jasta's pilots. Apparently, the standard iron sight on British MGs was set up to match the average wingspan at 200m. Not sure on the quality of this reference but it is the reason behind Normal being 200m. I also read anecdotes about experienced German pilots flying about 300m's off British aircraft, so any inexperienced gunners wasted their ammo firing at the Germans uselessly making the German attack easier. Again - emphasis on holding fire until very close.

 

 

[Youtch]

Generally speaking, i like very much this mod, i think it makes the game more challenging in Single Player, which is a welcome addition.

 

I might have found though something broken. After testing this mod against aces, i am under the impression that they never shoot during heads-on, or shoot way too late. 

 

It has therefore become the easiest way to defeat aces. Could it be a direct consequence of firing distance adjustment?

[Stonehouse]

It's possible and has been reported earlier back when the mod first was published and I had thought that part was working ok with the various tweaks in response. I had seen head on and crossing attacks from the front quarter in my testing so believed it resolved but can check it again. I didn't think it should be a frequent occurrence for fighter v's fighter, but it definitely should happen.

 

Can you give some specifics of the aircraft involved and situation generally so I can do some tests?

[Youtch]

It happens with FW190A6 vs Typhoon AI (ace).

 

I played 10 headons, never got to see the AI shooting.

[Stonehouse]

Ok just so I am sure I'm clear - you've seen them have opportunities to do head on attacks during head on passes and they have not fired or you have never seen them do head on passes as if to make an attack?

 

I'll do some testing and see what I can do. It is possible that the controls for such a situation are beyond my reach similar to the P38s not fighting properly as discussed on the first page of the thread. 

[Stonehouse]

It definitely does happen although it is not frequently. First attempt in QMB of 4 v 4 all ace with Typhoons and FW190A6 produced 1 situation where the planes concerned managed to get sufficiently in the same plane of motion and aligned. Both planes fired, the FW190 hit the Typhoons wing resulting in a sudden slight change in vector of the Typhoon which led to a head on collision and destruction of both. The FW190 had the better approach and firing solution and probably fired late although due to the head on approach the resultant closing velocity was around 1000 kph according to tac view, which is not much time to set up and shoot. I will do some more tests and fiddling to see if I can get the firing distance further out for aces as the firing did occur at very close range. I can't promise success and can't promise that it won't make the other skill levels do stupid things as a result as often it is 1 parameter acting across all skills.

 

In sequence

FW190 firing

Typhoon fires back

 

 

Initial fire of FW190 hits Typhoon right wing leading to a slight rotation and pitch up and collision

[Youtch]

11 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

Ok just so I am sure I'm clear - you've seen them have opportunities to do head on attacks during head on passes and they have not fired or you have never seen them do head on passes as if to make an attack?

I am in QMB with 1 vs 1 piloting the FW190 and trying systematically to engage them in headon passes to see how they react. In my test the Typhoon with ACE AI does not seem to shoot back, or would shoot so late that i had to move away before checking if he tried to shoot or not.

 

I m under the impression that without the mod it would shoot and maybe it is because the mod reduce the firing distance for aces while in headon pass you need to fire more from afar.

 

I will do more tests, maybe something weird happened in my tests yesterday.

 

 

[Stonehouse]

Bottom line is they do engage in head on and front quarter attacks although it very likely may be less than before with stock. Not questioning your observations. There are parameters specifically for head on firing, but they are not skill specific and yes, they are range based. i.e., changing them to suit just aces could easily make a mess of the other 3 skills.

 

I've been doing some tweaking and testing as well to try to see if it can be improved without causing bigger issues, but we can only play with less than half the pieces and the rest can only be viewed and changed by the dev team. As I have said all along this mod is trying to make things better and I'm happy to try to improve it but in the end it will always be a compromise because most of the situation is not in our control. So whatever improvement gained is likely to be incremental. If the mod provides an overall gain, we may have to ignore some bits that aren't better than stock. Not saying don't try but am saying keep the expectations real so you aren't disappointed. In the end the only people who can deliver truly better AI pilots are the development team.

 

Keep testing but I don't think it will show you anything other than the aces do engage in head on attacks but probably at a lower frequency than stock. If you do find clues, please let me know. I will definitely keep looking at it and post up anything I feel makes things better if it doesn't make other things worse. I am conscious though that it may be worth waiting a week or so since AI changes for both air and ground targets were mentioned for 5.002.

[Youtch]

Thanks anyway for taking the time to look at it.

[Stonehouse]

47 minutes ago, Youtch said:

Thanks anyway for taking the time to look at it.

It's all good. It's just that it is like balancing on a pin head a bit because the values are global for head on stuff. My main concern is I might end up making novices or more likely normal skill pilots absolutely deadly in a head on pass at long range.  

Edited October 7, 2022 by Stonehouse

[Stonehouse]

@Youtch check your PM please

[Youtch]

Answered the PM

[Stonehouse]

11 hours ago, Youtch said:

Answered the PM

@Youtch check your PM again. Thanks

[Stonehouse]

Generally, 5.002 did not impact the mod but there was an adjustment made to address recent concerns about Aces only infrequently doing head on attacks when the situation appeared to make it reasonable. My only concern about the adjustment is that it is possible that head on collisions are now slightly more likely when performing these attacks. Tests seem to indicate that it is ok but if it ends up that there are too many mid airs happening, I will adjust it again.

 

Thanks

[Hook_Echo]

New update, I played a few quick missions so random enemy skill level. They seemed to be taking some pretty wild high aspect shots at fast closure rates and landing them surprisingly well. It's possible I was getting focused by the entire enemy flight, so it might be an AI behavior thing. I did some 1v1s after against an ace and I faired much better, but I did notice there one of six enemies did take a pretty wild snapshot at me. I didn't really give them many chances. That's all I had time for tonight. Tomorrow I'll try some smaller fights against different AI levels to try and narrow it down.

 

Unrelated, the new cannon impact holes look freaking awesome. Shredded planes.

[Stonehouse]

Ok please pay attention to the skill levels of the AI doing what you think are shots that are not reasonable. A lot of the stuff for head on attacks is global ie not skill dependent. So, it is possible novices now do too many for instance. It is a very fine line to walk and possibly it will be necessary to back things off much closer to what they were and just live with Aces not doing so many head on attacks. Needs more feedback so please if you use this mod do some focused testing across the skill sets

[Hook_Echo]

I didn't notice your update. I'm still on Sept 21st version. I'll download it tomorrow and do some serious tests.

[Stonehouse]

Been rerunning 4 109s v's 4 109s (so it's apples and apples not apples and oranges) at different skill levels over and over this afternoon and I think it all looks ok. Haven't seen any midair collisions, have seen aces do head on attacks a bit more than before, have seen the occasional wild shot by novices but then they are novices so not so unreasonable.

[Stonehouse]

Thanks to a discussion with Avimimus about some aspects of an old Rise of Flight bomber gunnery mod I have some fairly large changes coming soon. ( @Avimimus thank you for the suggestions and information and help).

 

Turrets will now fire different burst lengths based on total ammo supply for the turret. Total ammo being total number of reloads plus the ready mag. More ammo = longer bursts more often. Not much ammo = short bursts with longer pauses. I've categorised the 60 odd turrets in the game into long, medium, short and brief burst categories.  Long is >=950 total rounds, medium is >= 600 and < 950, short is > 200 and < 600, brief is <=200. Some of the turrets in brief have less than 100 rounds.

 

Adding this altered the balance between fighters and bombers quite a bit, so I have had to rejig all the bomber gunnery accuracy values and skill values plus, due to input from Avimimus, toning down the ability for gunners to shoot under G loading. The end result is they tend to stay in the fight longer (particularly aircraft like the IL2M42 with only 150 rounds for the rear gun) and survive slightly better but no more wild shooting or accurate shooting under high G.

 

As part of this change it became very apparent that powered turrets with M2/50s or similar were much more effective than flexible gun mounts and M2/50 or bigger weapons are quite a bit more effective than lighter caliber 7.9/7.62 mm weapons. This is particularly acerbated due to the poor defensive formations used by bombers in IL2 GB and lack of coordinated cohesive defense and poor firing arcs on some aircraft. As a result, to avoid aircraft armed with lighter caliber weapons being able to be treated with complete contempt by fighters I split these out and gave such weapons a bit of a boost in terms of performance v's gunner skill. This means that while such aircraft still remain pretty easy targets, if you treat them as something totally benign you are likely to suffer some pain. It probably will not kill you but might mean you have to RTB before you planned to. 

 

I also retested the WW1 setup for both fighters and bombers and realised that things were just not very good in the previously published version. I have rejigged the WW1 fighter AI setup and also the WW1 bomber gunnery setup as a result.

 

Il2 GB allows bomber gunners to fire out to 3x normal range as long as they have sufficient ammo. I think this is to compensate for not holding proper formations and a lack of coordinated defense and small formation sizes. For WW2 due to the longer fighter engagement ranges I can leave this on. In fact, I have to, or else AI bombers tend to get shot down without firing a shot. 

In WW1 since AI fighters engage at much shorter ranges, I decided to turn off this ability for bomber gunners to avoid fighters getting shot before they can get into range. The result I feel is much more representative of the close-range nature of WW1 combat as the bombers don't start to fire until the fighters are much closer and also about to engage.

 

However, I will be the first to admit that I am much more WW2 centric in my interests and so if this doesn't work for people who fly mainly WW1 stuff, I'm happy to try to tweak it some more.

 

Finally, there is a bug in the Ju88A4 turret definitions in that the 1944 version of the gunner doesn't get used. I have corrected this in the upcoming version as a stop gap until the dev's patch the definitions. 

 

I've got a few more final tests I want to do but assuming all goes well I should upload a new version fairly soon. 

Edited October 30, 2022 by Stonehouse
typo

[Stonehouse]

New version in first post. I've done a lot of testing and don't believe there are any big holes but as I have always said the mod is a compromise because only the dev's can really address some of the issues with the AI. That said I think this is an improvement despite some quirks with particular aircraft match ups and hope it works well for people and that I haven't missed something major as there were a lot of changes, particularly in the WW1 space.

Edited October 31, 2022 by Stonehouse

[Spidey002]

This might go without saying, but do I need to turn on mods?

[Skycat1969]

Yes

[JG4_Moltke1871]

A simple question: How to install this mot? Halfoats original post is deletet.

Have to activate mods to make it work?

[Stonehouse]

Yes, you need to activate mods in the game to get this working. Then you need to enable it via JSGME (just my opinion - you can do it manually yourself if you wish).

 

Generally, most mods found here in this forum are set up to use with jsgme. 

 

JSGME info at this link:

 

 

JSGME manual here