Am I not getting something about the 109's MW50 system?

[1Sascha]

AFAIK, the 109s with MW50 (that I own) don't have a boost-function to switch the system from off to stand-by/automatic like the Dora has. At least it doesn't seem to respond to the boost switch like the Dora does and the MW-pressure gauge always seems to come on when I push the throttle to max.

 

Just had my first offline mission in a K-4 and I happen to know (because I filmed it and checked the time-codes) that I hadn't run the engine with MW50 for more than 10 minutes. Besides that I was checking the pressure gauge quite regularly to make sure the needle was always in the "healthy" zone. I also hadn't taken any battle damage. Nothing visible on the plane, I hadn't been fired upon by anyone and no flak hit/near hits. Still: The engine did die on me just like that about 8 minutes into the fight.

 

I usually check very meticulously that my throttle is indeed at 100% (not 99 or 98) when I go balls to the wall and that I reduce throttle in one quick motion to 80 or lower when I want to get out of emergency power. Checking the video, I confirmed that there was one instance where I messed up or my TM-throttle let me down. Calling for full power, I only hit 95% throttle... then got the "low pressure in injection system" warning after a few seconds and after 9 to 12 seconds of operation at 95%, I corrected the throttle and set it to 100%. Could those 9 to 12 seconds have been enough to ruin the engine? It died maybe 30 to 60 seconds after - and quite quickly, so I suspected damage due to mismanagement..

 

Thing is: This isn't the first time I managed to kill an MW50-equipped 109 this way (never a D-9 though, which I've flown more often so far). Happened at least once or twice in the G-14 as well. So I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong here?

 

S.

Edited April 16, 2022 by 1Sascha

[MisterSmith]

109's boost is automatic above a certain rpm/ata. It's tied to the Kommandogerat. There is no switch.

[BMA_FlyingShark]

17 minutes ago, MisterSmith said:

109's boost is automatic above a certain rpm/ata. It's tied to the Kommandogerat. There is no switch.

If I'm not mistaking, and correct me if I'm wrong, the MW50 in the 109's had to be switched on (or let off) during start-up, right?

 

Have a nice day.

 

[1Sascha]

Oh well, I'll just post this here...

 

Was a bit late on the guncamera-switch... there was one quick kill before that I didn't film, but I had only briefly used full power before I started Shadowplay. Maybe 30 to 50 seconds of 100% throttle.

 

All in all, the whole mission only lasted less than 30 mins with at least 15 mins flight time from AF to target area (no MW50 use there, most of the time on continuous power). In-game T/O time was 10:05 and engine died at 10:32.

 

The nose looks very bouncy in a lot of shots (and it was in-game, too). It was so bad, I thought I had somehow taken damage, but I guess those were just the wind and turbulence. "9m/s with significant turbulence under the clouds" according to the briefing.

 

 

 

 

The "throttle mishap" I described above starts at 2:58/2:59 and ends at 3:10

Engine death is at 3:45 - 3:50

 

7 minutes ago, FlyingShark said:

If I'm not mistaking, and correct me if I'm wrong, the MW50 in the 109's had to be switched on (or let off) during start-up, right?

 

As you can see in the video, the system did come on. MW pressure gauge seems to be working correctly at 100% throttle and both manifold pressure and RPM are through the roof when I go full power. Besides: If it could be switched on/off (like in the Dora) and I had neglected to switch it on, the engine should've died much, much sooner.

 

 

 

S.

Edited April 16, 2022 by 1Sascha

[357th_KW]

My understanding is that you need to be at max throttle to engage the MW50 injection in the G-6 late, G-14 and K-4.  No extra buttons required.  The problem with that is if you push the throttle up into the combat or emergency range but not far enough to engage the MW50.  This results in high boost without injection and thus detonation and engine damage.

 

When I fly it I try to stay under 80% (about 1.3 ata) or I firewall it.

Edited April 16, 2022 by VBF-12_KW

[CUJO_1970]

You fly the MW50 equipped 109s at up to 81% 1.42 ata -OR-at full boost ONLY. There is no in between.

 

At 82% to 99%  there is no MW50 injection to cool the engine. You must be at full power/full throttle to engage the MW50 boost system.

[1Sascha]

1 hour ago, CUJO_1970 said:

You fly the MW50 equipped 109s at up to 81% 1.42 ata -OR-at full boost ONLY. There is no in between.

 

2 hours ago, VBF-12_KW said:

The problem with that is if you push the throttle up into the combat or emergency range but not far enough to engage the MW50.  This results in high boost without injection and thus detonation and engine damage.

 

I'll just quote myself from the original post:

 

3 hours ago, 1Sascha said:

I usually check very meticulously that my throttle is indeed at 100% (not 99 or 98) when I go balls to the wall and that I reduce throttle in one quick motion to 80 or lower when I want to get out of emergency power. Checking the video, I confirmed that there was one instance where I messed up or my TM-throttle let me down. Calling for full power, I only hit 95% throttle... then got the "low pressure in injection system" warning after a few seconds and after 9 to 12 seconds of operation at 95%, I corrected the throttle and set it to 100%. Could those 9 to 12 seconds have been enough to ruin the engine? It died maybe 30 to 60 seconds after - and quite quickly, so I suspected damage due to mismanagement..

 

and:

 

3 hours ago, 1Sascha said:

Thing is: This isn't the first time I managed to kill an MW50-equipped 109 this way (never a D-9 though, which I've flown more often so far). Happened at least once or twice in the G-14 as well. So I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong here?

 

... and I also wonder of course if those 11 or 12 seconds of accidental 95% throttle could've been enough to damage the engine so badly that it died 35 seconds later.

 

S.

Edited April 16, 2022 by 1Sascha

[Asgar]

not sure about the 95% incident, but i think you said generally what happens, the engine failure occurs quicker than expected around 8ish minutes intead of the 10min listed in the specs page, is that about right?

and you said you check the MW-50 pressure gauge. Do you check it when you throttle up or do you check it afterwards as well? From what I remember the pressure of the MW-50 system can decrease at certain altitudes, so you might not get enough injection during certain sections of a climb or if you're flying at an unlucky for longer periods you might thinkg you're injecting enough MW-50 but aren't in reality. Just a thought, but i would have to check to confirm this.

[1Sascha]

1 hour ago, Asgar said:

and you said you check the MW-50 pressure gauge. Do you check it when you throttle up or do you check it afterwards as well? From what I remember the pressure of the MW-50 system can decrease at certain altitudes, so you might not get enough injection during certain sections of a climb or if you're flying at an unlucky for longer periods you might thinkg you're injecting enough MW-50 but aren't in reality. Just a thought, but i would have to check to confirm this.

I usually try to glance at the gauge every 20 or 30 secs or so when in full power. But in a dogfight and in the older 109s that don't have the gauge prominently on the dashboard.... who knows?

 

The game's not very specific when it comes to varying but non-critical pressures, so I usually assume everything is good as long as I'm over the "switch back to combat power NOW!" value (0.4 IIRC?).

 

Oh well... I'll just assume that in this case it was simply me screwing up the throttle that one time. Wouldn't be the first time I slipped into a dangerous power setting without even realizing it. My physical throttle is set to pretty low friction because otherwise it will stick on small corrections. I really need some sort of detent on that thing or to get rid of that crappy entry-level TM-stuff...

 

S.

[Yogiflight]

8 hours ago, MisterSmith said:

109's boost is automatic above a certain rpm/ata. It's tied to the Kommandogerat. There is no switch.

In game, yes. IRL there was a switch and the manual clearly stated to switch off the system, when the tank was empty, because otherwise the engine was damaged.

[=420=Syphen]

12 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

In game, yes. IRL there was a switch and the manual clearly stated to switch off the system, when the tank was empty, because otherwise the engine was damaged.

 

There was a circuit breaker to turn the whole system on or off. But as MisterSmith states, there is no switch to start injecting. 

 

You're talking about different functions. 

[1Sascha]

19 minutes ago, =420=Syphen said:

There was a circuit breaker to turn the whole system on or off. But as MisterSmith states, there is no switch to start injecting. 

I don't think it was a question of whether or not it had a "go baby, go!"-switch. But rather an activation switch (beyond the standard dedicated circuit breaker) that would set the device to "off" or "stand by"-mode. Stand by meaning it wouldn't actually start injecting until the throttle was pushed beyond a certain point. Just like the Dora has it in both IL-2 and DCS. Not sure what DCS' K-4 has, since I don't own that plane.

 

And it had been a while since I read any of the original 109 manuals out there, but they're easier to find than ever these days. I found this PDF:

 

https://docplayer.org/43036679-Bf-109-k-4-flugzeug-handbuch-teil-9a-allgemeine-ausruestung-d-luft-t-k-4-teil-9a-stand-oktober-1944-ausgabe-dezember-1944.html

 

And wouldn't you know it ...?

 

 

Zooming in on item 25 on the list:

 

 

= "Toggle switch for MW-system"

 

and here's where the switch should be:

 

 

bit hard to see, but I think that's a 25 right there...

 

 

So I guess in real life, the 109 had the same MW50 off/stand-by switch that the Dora has in game.

Which kinda makes sense, because I don't see why they would use a different system on the 109 - after all: The K-4 was all about simplification. Heck, simplification is even referred to in this diagram under the ** foot-note up top. There's a typo in there (probably due to the PDF conversion), but it says "** will be deleted as part of the simplification process".

 

 

 

 

 

S.

[The_Ant]

Maybe something will happen to mw50,after the new fuel systems for il-2 is released.In dcs world 109 K-4 module,it works as it supposed to do,flip  the switch then use  full power for 10 min,and a cool down,then you can use again..

 

[Art-J]

@1Sascha - yes, the switch is there in DCS Kurfy as well and it's off by default in cold-start missions. I guess in Il-2 it's on all the time.

[Yogiflight]

2 hours ago, =420=Syphen said:

There was a circuit breaker to turn the whole system on or off.

Ehem, this is a switch to turn the system on or off. If it is turned on, the system will pump the MW50 mixture into the engine, as soon as you have maximum throttle, if it is turned off, it won't. This is exactly what I was talking of. This switch is missing in game, most likely it wasn't modelled because you don't really need it, as rarely anyone will have the issue, running out of MW50 mixture in a mission.

[1Sascha]

33 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

This switch is missing in game, most likely it wasn't modelled because you don't really need it, as rarely anyone will have the issue, running out of MW50 mixture in a mission.

Naw... they just needed a space for Helga's picture in the cockpit. Priorities and all that ...

 

S.

[III/JG53Frankyboy]

15 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

In game, yes. IRL there was a switch and the manual clearly stated to switch off the system, when the tank was empty, because otherwise the engine was damaged.

and if you fly above full throttle height - MW50 gave you only a benefit till FTH of the engine.

[LukeFF]

48 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

Ehem, this is a switch to turn the system on or off. If it is turned on, the system will pump the MW50 mixture into the engine, as soon as you have maximum throttle, if it is turned off, it won't. This is exactly what I was talking of. This switch is missing in game, most likely it wasn't modelled because you don't really need it, as rarely anyone will have the issue, running out of MW50 mixture in a mission.

 

The MW50 switch is there; what isn't there is the switch for the 21 cm rockets.

[1Sascha]

3 hours ago, LukeFF said:

The MW50 switch is there; what isn't there is the switch for the 21 cm rockets.

holy crap.. I just saw that switch's label for the first time, because I removed the silly photo of that LW floozy.

 

 

 

And there's actually two switches missing for the rockets. One to select between the 30mm and the rockets (22), the other to jettison the tubes (26)

 

 

 

In fairness though... both switches also have that double asterisk in the manual, denoting "will be deleted as part of  the simplification process". So IL-2's K-4 could simply be a later model K-4 that's been "simplified". Plus the in-game K-4 doesn't seem to have the rockets anyway, so ...

 

It's kinda odd that the switch is there and even labeled, but that the plane still doesn't use the same "boost"-functionality as the Dora.

 

*shrug*

 

S.

Edited April 17, 2022 by 1Sascha

[Yogiflight]

4 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

The MW50 switch is there; what isn't there is the switch for the 21 cm rockets.

But does it work in game? As far as I remember there is no way in the 109s to deactivate the MW 50 system. Or was that just for the G14?

[1Sascha]

6 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

But does it work in game? As far as I remember there is no way in the 109s to deactivate the MW 50 system. Or was that just for the G14?

It's there as a visual element in the cockpit, but you can't do anything with it. At least not by using the "boost" function - which is how you can throw that switch in the D-9. The system itself in the 109s seems to be always on .. or always in "stand-by"/"ready-to-inject"-mode, rather.

 

S.

[Yogiflight]

14 minutes ago, 1Sascha said:

The system itself in the 109s seems to be always on .. or always in "stand-by"/"ready-to-inject"-mode, rather.

That is how I understood it, when the G 14 was released. I never wanted to say there is no switch in the cockpit, just no working switch.

[1Sascha]

Hmmm... I just had another throttle mishap in a K-4, but this time I did see it the instant the "low pressure..." warning came on. Reduced throttle to safe levels, waited 4 or 5 seconds, reset throttle to 100% again, but the pressure was still low on the gauge. So I reduced to 75% or so, snuck away from the fight and after, maybe, 30 to 60s I tried 100% once more. This time the pressure shot up to normal levels, "low pressure..."-warning didn't come on, and I actually managed to keep flying and fighting for 15 minutes or so and RTBed.

 

 

S.

[RyanR]

 

Is there an MW50 pressure gauge in the 109? I forget.

 

Even without MW50, the 109's in general are finicky with engine power. You really need to keep an eye on the manifold pressure. If you eat into "emergency power" too long, you'll quickly trash the engine. Fortunately, the 109's are all pretty similar with the critical manifold pressures.

 

Conversely, all the 190's are pretty forgiving.

 

-Ryan