Fixing toggles (by attempting to use virtual joysticks, Joystick Gremlin, etc) (VKB and Honeycomb hardware) - SOLVED

[FlyinLoafOfToast]

Hi all,

 

EDIT: As the title reflects, I have surprised myself by managing to solve these issues.  Probably, too, I reinvented the wheel (although I was not able to, within a reasonable time, turn up the answers to the same questions somewhere else on the forum/internet, so I'll just leave this here for whomever may benefit from it).

 

TLDR: I herein address the following issues: using VJoy / Joystick Gremlin to: (re)map toggles, dedicated flap/gear levers, and a mode selector switch* to function properly in IL-2, which has various bugs or issues in each case.  (Toggles, with their constant input, cause complications as opposed to press-and-release buttons.  The dedicated flap/gear levers on VKB's Side Extension Module for example confuse the bejeezus out of IL-2 because they are - apparently - both buttons AND axes, and also have other peculiarities.  IL-2 does not look at the mode switch as controlling the other buttons in any way, either.  Joystick Gremlin can solve all of these issues.  Also: * strictly speaking, one does not remap the mode selector switch, but for simplicity's sake, I'll just say I now know how to "fix" the mode selector switch so it does work in the game.)

 

Final side note: if anyone requires precise instructions on how to do this, let me know.*   * I am a sailor and periodically disappear for long periods of time.  Apologies in advance if this prevents my (timely) reply.

 

Now onto the thread as originally written.

 

--------------------------------------------------------

 

Thought I'd tap into the brain trust.  My roommate and I are having trouble making our toggles function in IL-2.  I use VKB hardware (specifically, a RH Gladiator NXT Premium, a LH NXT Premium Omni for the throttle, plus several modules: a Side Extension Module (SEM), and a pair of Throttle Quadrants (THQs): one of which is vertical.)  My entire setup has only three toggles, all on the SEM: a four-way Mode Switch and flaps/gear levers which are both axes and toggles.

My roommate has a slew of toggles as he is using Honeycomb Alpha and Bravo modules as part of his setup.

 

Pics of both setups and the VKB SEM attached.  Side note: all of my modules are connected independently, except the SEM, which is bridged to my RH stick.  I doubt this is the source of the problem, as buttons with higher numbers than the mode switches are still detected properly by IL-2.  It's just anything which is a toggle (with unceasing input) which has issues.

 

In both cases, IL-2 does not detect toggles properly.  Since there is constant "pull" (input) with a toggle, plus the fact that IL-2 seems to not distinguish between the press or release of a button, any toggle can be detected as multiple buttons.  For example, on my 4-way Mode Switch, Mode 2 is detected differently by IL-2 depending on whether I am switching *from* Mode 1 or Mode 3.  In actuality, it appears that the game registers that motion as a *release* (but still an action) of whichever Mode had already been selected, rather than a *press* of Mode 2.

 

I used VJoy to create a virtual joystick, and in Joystick Gremlin, created macros so that the four way mode switches are no longer toggles, but triggers.  That is to say, each of the modes is now mapped to its own virtual button, and switching to any mode does the following: presses the button, holds for 1/10 second, and then releases the button. There is therefore no longer the constant pull of the toggle.

 

The hope was that IL-2 would now recognize the mode switches as individual buttons.  However, the game still detects the different modes differently.  What's more, it sometimes (seemingly at random) detects the input as the original controller (joystick 2), and at other times, detects it as the new virtual joystick (joystick 7)!  In either case, it maps to multiple button inputs.  So now, again sticking with the example of flipping to Mode 2 on the 4-way switch, IL-2 detects it as at least four different buttons: two each on the virtual stick, and two each on the physical device.

 

At this point, I am confounded, and am wondering whether anyone has either run into similar problems, and/or found a way to solve them.  I have enough buttons to perform all of the functions (so far) without needing to use the toggles, but it sure would be nice if there's a way to make them work properly.  If I could switch modes, for example, my SEM could have brake and canopy functions on one mode, bombing controls on another, etc, and I could map the gear and flaps to their dedicated levers.  My roomie has much more "at stake", as his setup has no fewer than 17 toggles.  Lots of options if they can be made to work, lots of frustration if not!

 

Thank you all for your time and any help you might offer.

 

Regards,

Flying Loaf of Toast

Edited April 4, 2022 by FlyinLoafOfToast
More precise and informative title

[FlyinLoafOfToast]

Further input (ba-dum-TISS):

I remapped the flaps and gear levers in Gremlin and got somewhere: I mapped up/down to respective virtual buttons, and made any other detected functions (such as when the levers went into a neutral position) release all of the inputs and/or map to dead ends (unassigned) virtual buttons.

 

Now, IL-2 still detects any of these motions in seemingly random ways.  Moving the lever to flaps up, for example, may be detected as either the virtual or the original physical stick, and may be detected as one of multiple buttons.  HOWEVER, if I accepted the correct virtual button in IL-2, then everything seems to work perfectly in game.  e.g. moving the lever to flaps up always and only results in the flaps retracting.  Moving the lever to flaps down results in the flaps always and only going down, and moving the lever to neutral simply stops the flaps wherever they are.  So, that's something.

 

Perhaps I can bind the mode switches the same way: keep hitting "Retry" in IL-2 until the correct button is detected (new/virtual joystick, proper button number*) and then accepting.  *IL-2, as I'm sure people are aware, numbers the buttons beginning with 0, not 1, so button 13 on hardware/configurator/mapping software is button 12 in the game, and so on.

 

I'm still happy to have input, thoughts, questions, and comments from the community!

 

Regards,

FLoT

[FlyinLoafOfToast]

Further update:

Well, now I'm starting to feel bad, as I am gradually figuring this out on my own.  Really, at the time of the initial post, I thought I'd gone as far as I could with finding answers myself.

 

Again, although I'm sure many people know this already, for the benefit of anyone else reading the thread or experiencing similar issues: Joystick Gremlin cannot hide the physical hardware inputs even when it maps an input to a new virtual controller.  Therefore, IL-2 may detect an input as either from the virtual stick or the physical one.  There are various solutions to this: another type of software like TARGET, using the Input Repeater tool built into Gremlin (which repeats the input for five seconds, generally allowing the game to detect the desired input rather than the one from the physical hardware - although note that this does not work cleanly with toggles), or my preference: simply play around with the "Retry" button in IL-2 until the desired input is obtained, then lock it in.

 

I am also figuring out how to make the Mode Switch work in the game.  I think I'm onto something and will post a discovery/solution once I have it.

Well, at least I'm cleaning up my own mess here. 

 

Best,

FLoT

Edited April 3, 2022 by FlyinLoafOfToast

[FlyinLoafOfToast]

Solved.

 

To close it out: Joystick Gremlin does contain everything needed to make this work.

 

IL-2 does not get bound to the mode switch at all.  Rather, one creates a virtual joystick, e.g. in Gremlin, and allocates a different virtual button for each physical button AND for each mode.  i.e., referencing the picture of the SEM which I attached, say I want to have button C1 do four separate functions, depending on the position of the white Mode switch.  In Gremlin, you can create four different modes, and bind a different virtual button to each combination, i.e., C1 in Mode 1, C1 in Mode 2, C1 in Mode 3, and C1 in Mode 4.  Once that's programmed, IL-2 will recognize the proper virtual button and perform the required function.  There are further nice programming tools in Gremlin to prevent one from having to, say, re-bind the flaps lever in each of the four modes.  (This is called the Inheritance function, and it works by -for example - assigning Modes 2-4 to be "parented" by Mode 1.  This means that, unless a button is specifically ordered to perform a unique function in Modes 2-4, it will execute its Mode 1 function regardless of which position the Mode Selector switch is in.

 

In conclusion, I am probably just reinventing the wheel, but maybe reading this through will facilitate someone else's programming experience.

 

Regards to all,

FLoT

[Charon]

5 hours ago, FlyinLoafOfToast said:

Joystick Gremlin cannot hide the physical hardware inputs even when it maps an input to a new virtual controller

 

FYI, it is possible to hide devices with devreorder (although it means you'll need to remap *all* buttons and axes with JG). This can be useful if you have a bunch of vjoy devices in addition to your physical hardware, and wind up hitting the 8 device cap.

[FlyinLoafOfToast]

11 hours ago, Charon said:

 

FYI, it is possible to hide devices with devreorder (although it means you'll need to remap *all* buttons and axes with JG). This can be useful if you have a bunch of vjoy devices in addition to your physical hardware, and wind up hitting the 8 device cap.

 

This is a fantastic tip, Charon!  Thanks for pointing it out - it opens up quite a few possibilities.  As I may get another throttle quadrant anyway, I'm pushing that 8 device cap already!

 

How's the flying way the heck out there by Pluto?

 

Regards,

FLoT

[1Sascha]

Just out of curiosity:

 

Have you tried Joy2Key?

 

Been using this for years and with multiple configs (SW FF2 + CH Pro Throttle, now VKB Gladiator NXT Evo + TM TWCS throttle) and exactly because I wanted a toggle function for gunsight view. Using it for other stuff now, too (in part to avoid having to use TM's awful Target-SW) and I never had any trouble. It's free, it works and it seems rather powerful - although I probably only ever use like 10% of its capabilities.

 

S.

[FlyinLoafOfToast]

Hi, Sascha!

No, I'm rather new to this whole thing, and picked up Joystick Gremlin on a suggestion from my friend.  As I was able to make it work, I didn't look any further.  However, it's good to have this input and to know that other options exist.  I'm very new to the world of virtual joysticks!

 

As a side note: I'm using a VKB Gladiator NXT for the right hand, and an EVO Omni for the left (both with premium grips).  I currently use the D1 buttons on both for gunsight zooming - left little finger for minimum zoom, and right for zoom level 3 (which is enough zoom for shooting, I think).  Both C1 buttons have a sliding zoom in / zoom out on their up/down directions, so I can use whichever thumb is more convenient based on my maneuvering.  I am considering switching the left hand D1 and my default zoom, so that I will automatically stay at minimum zoom, and can quick press the left hand if I want zoom level 1 or 2.  (Last piece of the puzzle: right hand A1 8-way POV is for snap views around the horizon, and the left hand one is for pitch and yaw of the pilot's head.  Of course, any release of the right hand resets my view to default, whereas the left just stays put.)  In conclusion, my fingers are busy, but they can achieve a *lot*.  Your mentioning of the toggle gunsight got me curious as to how your viewing setup compares with mine - specifically, what you do for controlling zoom, *but* (if you wish), the full nine yards.  ?

 

Best,

FLoT

 

[1Sascha]

IL-2's input mapper could use some sort of an overhaul. Without going into a rant, having to push and hold a key to zoom in and stay zoomed in on the gunsight is a big no-no for me. I'd have to either use a button on my throttle, thus splitting the "workload" between two hands which I find awkward. Or use the pinky-switch on my stick, hold that, then line up a shot and then push two more buttons with my index-finger and thumb to fire all my guns. Pretty awkward too.

 

That's why I'm using this instead:

 

 

Button 5 is my stick's pinky button, "Numpad ," is IL-2's default gunsight view function. Enabling the toggle function in the button assignment makes it an on-/off-switch instead of a press and hold affair. All I need to do is start Joy2key before each IL-2-session, but that's hardly a chore. Super simple to set up and I believe it supports modifiers/mode-switching as well. Can't be sure because I don't use that function.

 

You can also use it to setup any axes on your stick. Took about a minute to turn my TM TWCS' rudder axis into a two button switch to control my toe brakes.

 

 

BTW: Since your last post seems to indicate that you're using POV hats for your views, you might want to consider some sort of head-tracking device. Total game-changer IMO when it comes to immersion and it will free up both your fingers and your POV switches. I'd go with an "active" solution, meaning one that has some sort of LED clip, not a reflective cap/stickers. Track IR 5 is still the standard AFAIK, but there are cheaper hardware-alternatives out there from small suppliers like Trackhat or Delanclip.

 

34 minutes ago, FlyinLoafOfToast said:

Your mentioning of the toggle gunsight got me curious as to how your viewing setup compares with mine - specifically, what you do for controlling zoom, *but* (if you wish), the full nine yards. 

 

 

I'm using a VKB Gladiator NXT EVO (KG12 grip), a TM TWCS throttle and a Delanclip/PS3 Eye camera with Opentrack for head-tracking. The TM throttle has a radio-dial sort of control-wheel for your pinky which is quite convenient for zooming in and out. Leaning the pilot's head back/forward/sideways etc is all done by the head-tracker since it's 6DOF.

 

S.