Removal of outer guns in the 190A8 to improve performance

[FliegerAD]

I would not be so pessimistic about it. Despite the current hypes in the forum, the next module could be almost anything. It don't think it is '45 Eastern front, but I am quite sure it will come some day.

 

The A9 will come one day, and probably as part of the core line-up of the module. I mean, I would buy it as a collector plane too. Of course...

 

 

[CountZero]

Or one of next 2 collector airplanes could be Fw-190A4 (that fit east DLC careers). And then as they work on new 190 they also do speed/ata fix for A3 on high alts, and add modifications ppl wont to A8.

 

 

[CUJO_1970]

FW190A-8 of 9.JG5 (White 3 + o)

 

There should be no doubt that the FW190A-8 was very commonly flown with the outer guns removed.

 

Edited November 20, 2022 by CUJO_1970

[Eisvogel]

Maybe a collector A-7 could be a great option too, I know at least one aircraft of JG26 didn't have outer guns (flown by Kurt Schmidkte), and it would be lighter without the auxiliary tank (okay maybe something like 20 kg without fuel, but I'll take it) and could make an "early A8" since the emergency boost was introduced in july, basically an A-6 with mg131s instead of mg17s

[CUJO_1970]

Notice the blown canopy on this FW190A-8. #350 210 "Gelbe 15" was built by a small delocalized Focke-Wulf plant at Aslau, between May and November 1944.

 

 

If the developers would only correct the roll rate to historically correct values from RAF published tests and give the FW190 the real loadout options it commonly had (including A8 ability to remove outer cannons) it would be like a new aircraft.

 

As tested by the RAF, the FW190 could exceed 160 degrees per second peak roll rate. It is incapable of reaching it's historic rolling velocity in the sim.

 

 

[CUJO_1970]

Just another A8 with those outer guns removed ?

 

[FTC_ChilliBalls]

On 11/16/2022 at 5:35 PM, CountZero said:

Or one of next 2 collector airplanes could be Fw-190A4 (that fit east DLC careers). And then as they work on new 190 they also do speed/ata fix for A3 on high alts, and add modifications ppl wont to A8.

 

Wasn't the A4 simply an A3 with the cowl flaps instead of open gills?

[Bremspropeller]

1 hour ago, So_ein_Feuerball said:

Wasn't the A4 simply an A3 with the cowl flaps instead of open gills?

 

For the most part, yes. It's a bit more complicated, though - see at the bottom.

 

Some had the FuG 16ZE installed, which would be a nice touch.

This is an A-5, but you can see the antenna.

 

Here's Eberhard Burath in what seems to be an A-3 - a broader version of this picture shows the horned vertical stab associated with the A-4, though.

 

The cowl-flaps were only introduced during running production, hence Burath's earlier A-4 with the "old" outlets.

Edited December 17, 2022 by Bremspropeller

[FliegerAD]

Two questions:

Was the removal of outer-wing guns done primarily by fighter units or fighter-bombers?

Same with the bubble canopy... was that a mod preferred by fighters or gound-pounders?

 

Or is that impossible to tell?

[CUJO_1970]

16 hours ago, FliegerAD said:

Two questions:

Was the removal of outer-wing guns done primarily by fighter units or fighter-bombers?

Same with the bubble canopy... was that a mod preferred by fighters or gound-pounders?

 

Or is that impossible to tell?

Very common with fighter units. Pretty much all of these pics unless specified otherwise are from fighter groups. The only fighter units where you don’t see outer guns removed were Reich Defense units like JG/300 tasked almost exclusively with intercepting heavy bomber streams.

 

For blown canopies you see a mix for A-8 (mostly flat) and F-8 mostly blown. For A9/F9 - almost always blown canopies. 
 

It’s bizarre that these common options were left out and continue to be left out for years, especially considering we already have the 3D assets for them. 

[CUJO_1970]

Late/post war 190A/F with blown canopy:

 

Freeman Field post war, this one has blown canopy and blade balance weights so it likely has 801/TU power plant.

 

A number of F8s were captured and flown by the Romanians (9 IIRC) after 8.44, but were confiscated by the Russians. This F8 has all racks removed and is in clean configuration...not uncommon to see F-series 190 being flown this way, as the Luftwaffe commonly did it on eastern front.

 

 

[CUJO_1970]

"The blown canopy may be seen on almost any model FW190 from late 1944 to the end of the war."

 

 

 

[CUJO_1970]

Captured F8/F9 with blown canopy:

 

 

Another Anton with blown canopy:

 

 

and another

 

 

and another ?

 

 

[BOO]

On 12/23/2022 at 5:51 PM, CUJO_1970 said:

For blown canopies you see a mix for A-8 (mostly flat) and F-8 mostly blown. For A9/F9 - almost always blown canopies. 
 

It’s bizarre that these common options were left out and continue to be left out for years, especially considering we already have the 3D assets for them. 

Is it not the case that the blown canopy simply connot be incorporated into the paint template for the A series due to space?

Edited March 16, 2023 by BOO

[CUJO_1970]

11 hours ago, BOO said:

Is it not the case that the blown canopy simply connot be incorporated into the paint template for the A series due to space?

 

I wouldn't know about that...if that's the case then it seems they never intended to include the blown canopy option on the A8/F8.

 

Here's the A8 we miss dearly in the sim, along with A9/F9 ?:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CUJO_1970]

Many late-war FW had not only the blown canopy but the extra armor plating behind the headrest.

 

[sevenless]

Hope dies last as the common saying goes, but with all those corporate changes and "the next big thing" being in focus, I pretty much doubt that we will ever see blown canopies or outer gun removal options on A8/F8 retrofitted or such common planes like 190-A9, 109-G10 or Spitfire IXc with 303s and round tails in BoN or BoBP. 

[CUJO_1970]

15 hours ago, sevenless said:

Hope dies last as the common saying goes, but with all those corporate changes and "the next big thing" being in focus, I pretty much doubt that we will ever see blown canopies or outer gun removal options on A8/F8 retrofitted or such common planes like 190-A9

 

I have no expectation for any of these options to ever be included.

Thread would be better off in the history section where it can be more rigorously ignored - and alternatively enjoyed - by the six people in the Great Battles community that have any interest in the FW190.

 

 

[FeuerFliegen]

somewhat related but off-topic question - 

When you remove the MG131s from the nose, why does it still have the bulge, and not smoothed out like an older Fw190 with the MG17s?  I would think that a large benefit of removing the MG131s would be less drag, in addition to the weight savings, but it seems like it's only weight savings.

[CUJO_1970]

There were never any streamlined upper cowlings built for the FW190, at least that I’ve ever seen. 
 

It would require manufacture of an entire new hinged gun cover, likely it was simply not a reality in the last year of the war. 

[CUJO_1970]

Another A8 with the outer guns removed.

[CUJO_1970]

The A8 with outer guns removed would be so easy to add - in fact it's essentially already there:

 

 

The developers could literally flip a switch to add the 13mm guns and the model is finished.

 

They would simply need to add the calculations to delete 176 kg of weight and correct the roll rate and you have a much better and more accurate FW190A8.

Edited February 17, 2024 by CUJO_1970

[MAJ_stug41]

On 5/28/2023 at 11:36 PM, FeuerFliegen said:

somewhat related but off-topic question - 

When you remove the MG131s from the nose, why does it still have the bulge, and not smoothed out like an older Fw190 with the MG17s?  I would think that a large benefit of removing the MG131s would be less drag, in addition to the weight savings, but it seems like it's only weight savings.

The 131s were removed to fit another oil reservoir. I do not know if the oil reservoir required the additional bulged space, but in any case, getting the tiny bit of speed back by smoothing out the cowling was not a priority in war conditions. Such concessions are regular in war.

[CUJO_1970]

OK, this is actual FW190A-8 wing showing open gun bay, outer cannon removed and circled in red: the common cover used when the outer cannons are removed.

 

 

 

Hopefully the developers will include this common option for the A-8 as exists in the game for all other FW190s.

 

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

Gefechtsverband Kuhlmey, part of JG 54, had their 190A without outer guns. With the increased performance and less weight came also the benefit of not having ammo explosions if outer wing was hit. 

[HazMatt]

From what I've read they would remove the outer guns because for some reason they would tend to jam when fired while pulling G.

[CUJO_1970]

On 2/21/2024 at 3:58 PM, HazMatt said:

From what I've read they would remove the outer guns because for some reason they would tend to jam when fired while pulling G.

Never read about the outer guns jamming in a FW190. Like with anything mechanical I’m sure it happened though. I did read once where 109 with outboard 20mm gondola could jam but even this seems very rare.

 

Donald Caldwell in his JG26 book specifically mentions with FW190 the outboard 20mm being taken out to improve performance, one pilot saying “‘we didn’t need them”. 2 20mm cannons and 2 MG are enough to destroy any aircraft they would encounter, including bombers - especially with mine rounds.
 

It is easy to find picture after picture of FW190A without those cannons. It really should be basic option for A-8 and will give slight gain in performance and agility. Hopefully developers can include it soon. 

 

[Yogiflight]

On 2/21/2024 at 9:58 PM, HazMatt said:

From what I've read they would remove the outer guns because for some reason they would tend to jam when fired while pulling G.

I would guess its more the MG/FFs, which are meant here.

[FliegerAD]

At this point in GB's life cycle we should put our hopes in a collector's aircraft. The A-9 seems to be the most likely candidate, but really....

 

...they could do an A-8 (late): bubble canopy, BMW 801 TU, removable outer wing cannons as a dedicated fighter variant. If the price is good, I'd buy it.

 

However, this seems unlikely. And I do consider the A-9 a much better choice. (Also, given the A-8 came with Bodenplatte, i.e. already representing a late variant, those options should have been available from the start. But it cannot be changed, it seems)

 

 

[CUJO_1970]

Late war universal FW190 wing, showing outer 20mm installed and below removed with the different type of fairing to cover the gun ports.

 

 

 

[CUJO_1970]

On 3/14/2024 at 1:39 PM, FliegerAD said:

...they could do an A-8 (late): bubble canopy, BMW 801 TU, removable outer wing cannons as a dedicated fighter variant. If the price is good, I'd buy it.

 

However, this seems unlikely. And I do consider the A-9 a much better choice. (Also, given the A-8 came with Bodenplatte, i.e. already representing a late variant, those options should have been available from the start. But it cannot be changed, it seems)

 

 

 

A9/F9 would be perfect collector - they were there in large numbers and the A9 is faster on the deck than the A8 along with having a higher top speed and higher critical altitude than the A8. A9 can be used with Normandy planeset as well as the first A9 were A8 that were -re-engined beginning in late Spring 1944 and then serial production in September 1944.

 

It's the best of the Antons and fought on both fronts. Makes perfect sense for collector. A9 without outer guns would be D-9 like performance on the deck:

 

 

 

[CUJO_1970]

Another A8 from 17XXX WNr block in fighter trim with no outer cannons:

 

 

[CUJO_1970]

 

Spoiler

 

Edited April 8, 2024 by LukeFF
swastikas

[CUJO_1970]

[CUJO_1970]

Hello developers - hope all is well. We would love to have an A8 with correct loadout options to remove outer cannons along with their weight and drag in a future update.

 

Like this beauty:

 

[Hook_Echo]

I love your persistence Cujo

[FTC_ChilliBalls]

 

On 5/2/2024 at 5:55 AM, Hook_Echo said:

I love your persistence Cujo

Empiric testing has shown there are two ways to get the IL2 devs to retroactively change anything in the game, bullying them or annoying them.

 

Therefore I applaud @CUJO_1970 for his insistence 👏

[LukeFF]

7 hours ago, FTC_ChilliBalls said:

Empiric testing has shown there are two ways to get the IL2 devs to retroactively change anything in the game, bullying them or annoying them.

 

Therefore I applaud @CUJO_1970 for his insistence 👏

 

I can tell you that bullying them will get you nowhere, and neither will annoyance. I've explained in the past that there is a coding limit to how many mods any given plane can have, and that's a big reason why you've not seen this particular mod for the A-8.

[CUJO_1970]

Excuse me?

[Hook_Echo]

The mosquito and typhoon for example have 8 loadout options. The 190A8 has 6, plus bubble canopy, plus gun deletion, equals?