Removal of outer guns in the 190A8 to improve performance

[453=SGII_Wotan]

Hi

 

The FW190 A6 has the option of removing the outer wing guns which improves overall performance.

Is it possible to give this option to the 190A8, I have read and I don't know how accurate this is but outer wing guns were removed from FW190A8 when fighting over the eastern front in 1944. 

 

I mean if we have the option in the A6 wouldn't this carry onto the A8?

[Tendo]

is this what you mean? but instead of increasing performance, additional armor and bomb/rocket holders makes it a bit slower

Edited April 3, 2022 by Tendo
a little additional explanation

[453=SGII_Wotan]

No that is not what I mean, what I mean is give us a clean 4 gun option of the 190A8, 2 nose mounted mg 131 13mm machine guns and two wing root mounted mg 151 20mm cannon, with the increase performance boost due to the loss of weight the removal of the outboard 20 mm cannons  plus removed cannon ammo.

 

I have read this was done to increase the performance of the 190A8, giving it an actual fighter vs fighter setup. This field mod is similar to the removal of the rear armour on the 109s to increase rear visibility

[MisterSmith]

You will need to include your sources for the DEV’s to consider this.

[[CPT]Crunch]

Take the one Tendo showed you and delete the nose guns, it gives you the minimal drag and weight flush wing bomb mount points, and with its boost is the fastest radial FW in the game.  Exceptional roll rates and good high speed maneuverability.  Only the Dora will out do it.  You can still do strike and its exceptional at fighting your way out with a good ability to run fast.  Knock the socks off any A-6.  In a fighter role the two wing cannons are plenty of hitting power, I find are even easier to get hits without the 13mm tracers throwing off the aim cues.

 

Guys who read energy states well will often mistake a G-8 for a dora and tend to approach an engagement with greater caution and act much more defensive.  They're not used to seeing a radial that fast or slippery.

[453=SGII_Wotan]

Website IPMS Stockholm: Focke Wulf 190A8 Werknummer 733682

 

Quote: Upper wing surface. This aircraft lacks the upper wing blisters of the outboard MG 151 cannon, often attributed to the A-8. Although I do not have an explanation to this, it was a common practice within the Luftwaffe to remove outer guns of the Fw 190 to save weight and improve performance. An experienced pilot could do without them anyway due to the better overall accuracy of the fuselage-mounted weapons. 

This information is from Brittmodeller.com

 

Quote: 

The omission of the outer MG151/20s (and their weight) was a feature not only of Priller’s WNr.170346, but several other aces’ aircraft, such as Heinz Bär (A-7 WNr.431007 and A-8 WNr.172689) and Georg-Peter Eder (A-7 WNr.430645 and A-8 WNr.170071).   The practice originated earlier, Nowotny’s well-known A-5 WNr.410004 of the I/JG 54 in late 1943 carried no outer MG-FF/M, and there are many other examples.

 

On to ‘Pips’ Priller's Jutta, FW 190A-8  WNr.170346 (Stammkennzeichen: “GU+RO”, built at Bremen).  On 15.August 1944 this one suffered a belly-landing at La Neuvelle southeast of Rouen, due to fuel shortage.  It was stripped & abandoned on 19/20.August.

 

No outer wing cannons or upper wing fairings

No antenna pulley on canopy. (The rear metal portion of the canopy was badly scratched from the rubbing of the slack antenna wire when the canopy was open.)

The lightweight Erla drop tank rack was fitted.  This rack was common in the JG 26, but not exclusive to them.

The propellor was a metal VDM 9-12153 A with the external weights.  Both the prop and spinner were very glossy (common in the JG 26). 

The FuG 16 ZY antenna mast beneath the port wing had a wide red stripe (in the hope a mechanic won’t accidentally bend it).

The white outline on the bottom portion of the port fuselage cross was missing.

 

There are other photos of WNr.170346 in the French archive.

[453=SGII_Wotan]

Is more evidence required for the developers to look at this request 

 

[JG7_X-Man]

Interesting  - there is substantial documentation on this with the Fw 190A-7, didn't think it was a mod for the Fw 190A-8 too. 

[Dr_Molem]

100% agree. 

[DD_Arthur]

On 4/5/2022 at 4:39 PM, 453=SGII_Wotan said:

Is more evidence required for the developers to look at this request 

 

 

Yes because what you have provided is the opinions of two writers on aero modelling websites.

These are not primary sources.

 

[CUJO_1970]

We already have photos of A8 without outer wing guns posted on this web site, for example Priller’s A-8 without outer cannons among others, I’ve posted them myself. 

This has been requested several times along with request for blown canopy option as well. 

[Dr_Molem]

 

Not negligible.

[453=SGII_Wotan]

7 hours ago, DD_Arthur said:

 

Yes because what you have provided is the opinions of two writers on aero modelling websites.

These are not primary sources.

 

The FW190A8 at IPSM Stockholm is a real plane, you can visit the website

[CUJO_1970]

 

 

 

 

 

 

There were a lot of things left off the 190A-8, including:

 

1. BMW801/TU Power Plant

2. Blown Canopy Option

3. Removal of outer cannons.

 

Etc.

On 4/5/2022 at 1:50 PM, JG7_X-Man said:

Interesting  - there is substantial documentation on this with the Fw 190A-7, didn't think it was a mod for the Fw 190A-8 too. 

 

It was done even on FW190A-9:

 

 

Edited April 18, 2022 by CUJO_1970

[DD_Arthur]

14 hours ago, 453=SGII_Wotan said:

The FW190A8 at IPSM Stockholm is a real plane, you can visit the website

 

Er...I’ve seen the real plane. It’s in the RAF museum at Cosford.

It’s history is slightly obscure in that when it was captured in Denmark in 1945 it was bolted to a JU88 in a Mistel combination which would seem to account for the missing wing cannon and associated fairings.

My point is about what constitutes a primary source.

An aero modelling website is not one.

Primary sources are original, period documentation, photographs and to a certain extent reliable memoirs, witness statements, etc.

 

In all fairness it does seem outer wing cannon were removed, at least in the field and for certain pilots or situations. Pips Priller in his aircraft is an excellent example.

[453=SGII_Wotan]

Thanks Arthur for the information and how to back it up.

 

why is the website IPSM Stockholm? 

 

 

[CUJO_1970]

Outer cannons were removed at the request of the pilots, or as part of typical use in JG.

 

For example Donald Caldwell documents from pilot accounts that was done regularly in his JG/26 Book.

[453=SGII_Wotan]

If Spitfires had their wings clipped to improve roll rate to match the 190 in that department, then surly if engaging in fighter vs fighter and the way to improve performance is to remove the outer guns and ammo, then this would happen

 

CUJO 1970 appears to have more source information than me on the subject, and aren't planes with assigned wernummers real planes? 

Edited April 10, 2022 by 453=SGII_Wotan

[the_emperor]

having a field mod for the A8 to remove he outer wing guns would be a nice addition, since it seems it literally was that, a field modification.

And since we have the Mk108 as a modification for the Bf-109 G6 (even though it was not a mod but a version of its own, which came with the designation U4 from the factory) this A8 mod could be easily implemented, and would certainly make a lot of people very happy.

 

[CUJO_1970]

The priority in the sim has been western allied fighters and adding every one of those with every late war boost and option included with Bodenplatte and Normandy.

 

Hopefully now there will be some time to go back and fill in some of the things left out, but I’m afraid now it will be very low priority. 

[=621=Samikatz]

36 minutes ago, CUJO_1970 said:

The priority in the sim has been western allied fighters and adding every one of those with every late war boost and option included with Bodenplatte and Normandy.

 

I mean, it's not like there aren't things that saw wide service on allied fighters that aren't included in the sim. It's obviously a case of research/development time, and the A-8 is not some uberplane anyone would feel the need to artificially nerf anyway

[CUJO_1970]

2 hours ago, =621=Samikatz said:

 

I mean, it's not like there aren't things that saw wide service on allied fighters that aren't included in the sim. It's obviously a case of research/development time, and the A-8 is not some uberplane anyone would feel the need to artificially nerf anyway

 

No idea why you are talking about "artificial nerf" - nobody has said anything like that or suggested it.

 

People are asking for historical options here that are currently missing. Simple as that.

 

 

[JV69badatflyski]

On 4/8/2022 at 2:26 PM, DD_Arthur said:

 

Yes because what you have provided is the opinions of two writers on aero modelling websites.

These are not primary sources.

 

Aero modelists are also called "Rivet counters"...
Those guys are looking for the smallest details on any airframe, especially when it goes about LW stuff , some "historians" could learn from them 

[453=SGII_Wotan]

You aren't nerfing the 190A8 by removing its outer wing guns, you are removing weight so it can be more effective in a fighter vs fighter scenario. With the 190A6 there is a performance increase in the plane with the outer guns removed.

 

You would want any advantage you could get when going up against late model spitfires, tempests, mustangs, Thunderbolts, LA5FN, LA7, Yak3, Yak9U and P63 .

The reality of air combat is if u cant get guns on your stuffed.

[JG7_X-Man]

22 hours ago, =621=Samikatz said:

 

I mean, it's not like there aren't things that saw wide service on allied fighters that aren't included in the sim. It's obviously a case of research/development time, and the A-8 is not some uberplane anyone would feel the need to artificially nerf anyway

 

I think the argument is regarding the availability of the aircraft already in the game so it should have all field mods available to it while it was in service.

No one is talk about adding new aircraft, nor are developers "nefing" aircraft intentionally. 

[CUJO_1970]

What we would love to see for the A8, historic option for blown canopy and delete outer guns like this one:

 

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by CUJO_1970

[354thFG_Panda_]

9 minutes ago, CUJO_1970 said:

What we would love to see for the A8, historic option for blown canopy and delete outer guns like this one:

 

Is that propeller different from the one we have in game? It looks like the paddle one used on some A9s (similar to the D9). Would be a nice performance mod to add to the list.

Edited April 12, 2022 by ThunderboltPanda

[CUJO_1970]

No outer cannons:

*note: this is probably an A-7 as pointed out by @JV69badatflyski

Edited April 13, 2022 by CUJO_1970

[JG7_X-Man]

On 4/9/2022 at 5:30 AM, CUJO_1970 said:

It was done even on FW190A-9:

 

 

I was just looking at that picture and was about post it! Peter Rodeike had that picture in his book Focke Wulf Jagdflugzeug Fw 190 A Fw 190 "Dora" Ta 152 H

Edited April 12, 2022 by JG7_X-Man

[CUJO_1970]

1 hour ago, ThunderboltPanda said:

Is that propeller different from the one we have in game? It looks like the paddle one used on some A9s (similar to the D9). Would be a nice performance mod to add to the list.

 

Yes, A8 could get BMW801/TU powerplant - we only have BMW801D-2...TU was newest power plant for A8 used before newer engine and new model designation A9.

 

It was like the later engine used in A9 in that it used stronger drive components from 801F series development engine.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by CUJO_1970

[JV69badatflyski]

5 hours ago, CUJO_1970 said:

No outer cannons:

 

Cujo, man, remove that picture, that's an A-7 , look at the pitot position.
(unless it received an used wing from an A7 due to dammage...)

[CUJO_1970]

4 hours ago, JV69badatflyski said:

Cujo, man, remove that picture, that's an A-7 , look at the pitot position.
(unless it received an used wing from an A7 due to dammage...)

I’ll allow it, bring on the A-7 too ?

(I edited the original -thank you sir)

Edited April 13, 2022 by CUJO_1970

[JV69badatflyski]

22 hours ago, CUJO_1970 said:

I’ll allow it, bring on the A-7 too ?

(I edited the original -thank you sir)

You're welcome Cujo, i know your passion for the Würger, we share it since almost 20years

Off course, bring the a7 also, with the 1.65ata retrofit 
 

[FliegerAD]

On 4/11/2022 at 9:21 PM, CUJO_1970 said:

People are asking for historical options here that are currently missing. Simple as that.

 

Indeed. It was just an option that is worth exploring in game. The fact that it may help with A2A combat is secondary to me, since I am a SP only. The historical accuracy is what counts.

 

Though I must admit I would like to see the bubble canopy on the A8 mostly for aesthetic reasons ?

[CUJO_1970]

On 4/17/2022 at 7:21 AM, FliegerAD said:

Though I must admit I would like to see the bubble canopy on the A8 mostly for aesthetic reasons ?

 

Yep, blown canopies for A8/F8 would be great!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CUJO_1970]

Here is another look at FW190A-8 WNr 739136 - (built at Ago,Oschersleben in November 1944)

-outer cannons removed

-no ETC rack (notice blade cuffs for CG)

-blown canopy

 

 

 

These were all fairly common modifications IRL.

 

Here is an up-close diagram of the balance weight for the prop:

 

 

 

 

 

[CUJO_1970]

JG/5's Rudi Artner's FW190A-8 with blown canopy:

 

 

Another interesting sequence of FW190A-8 surrendered at war's end...these pics are from http://falkeeins.blogspot.com

 

 

 

 

Another A8 with blown canopy in clean configuration (also blade balance weights):

 

 

And another -this is a JG1 Machine (Possible an A9?) surrendered in May 1945 at Skrydstrup, Denmark:

 

 

Anton 8 or 9 post war in clean configuration with blown canopy

 

And last but not least, a great picture of 7 JG/26 Walter Stumpf on the Channel Front in an A8 with the blown canopy:

 

 

 

 

[453=SGII_Wotan]

love your work Cujo

[CUJO_1970]

Captured A8 with blown canopy and blade balance weights:

 

 

FW 190A-8 in clean configuration - outer cannons deleted, blade weights attached:

 

 

Blown canopy FW190A-8 with pilot Heinz Vontin:

 

 

Blown canopy Anton, under new management:

 

 

Cool shot showing the wide cord prop with balance weights:

 

 

Yet another A8 with blown canopy, abandoned at Letchfield at war's end:

 

 

Blown canopies and deleting outer canons was a common and basic option used with the FW190A/8. The blown canopy on the D9 is the exact same canopy that the A8/F8 used. From the POH, we can see that the A8 also flew with the more robust BMW801 TU power plant starting in the summer of 1944.

 

It's a shame these basic options were left out of the sim with regard to the A8/F8, especially considering they require no new 3D assets.

 

Another look at Yellow 8:

 

A8 from JG 301 with blown canopy:

 

 

Probably another JG/5 A8:

 

 

 

 

[CUJO_1970]

There are many more pics, but with A9/F9 - trying to keep these photos relevant only to the ones we already have in the sim:

 

 

F8 Captured in Denmark: