IL-2 with Open XR "proof of concept" works with Reverb and some other headsets probably

[SvAF/F16_Goblin]

When browsing the DCS forum I came across this thread:
https://forum.dcs.world/topic/295123-update-263-v062-openxr-quickstart-guide-for-g2-g1-and-other-headsets/

 

And I thought I'd try it in IL-2.

It works!

It is still a "proof of concept" but hopefully it will evolve and that the dev's will give it some thought.

 

I perceive it as more "ghosting" but at the same time better colors and better "fluidity" ( I know it sounds weird).

Drawback is that necksafer don't work and that the scaling option in SteamVR is gone (ingame IPD don't do it for me).

 

I haven't tried the toolkit yet (link below) and there is probably a ton of tweaks to be made.

 

Attached file is OvGME ready and virus scanned with Bitdefender.

More links:
Quickstart | OpenXR Toolkit (mbucchia.github.io)
GitHub - ColinM9991/open-composite-dcs: Automatic packaging of the open-composite libs for OvGME

 

OCXR_WMR_ACC.zip

Edited March 26, 2022 by SvAF/F16_Goblin

[SvAF/F16_Goblin]

OpenXR toolkit seems to not play nice with IL-2.

In DCS there is no problem and all advance settings are showing but IL-2 dont start at all.

That's a pity since the toolkit enables NIS/FSR and world scaling etc.

[pepper9881]

You missed the discussion:

IL2 hungs when enabling OpenXR Toolkit. Without OXR Toolkit it is useless  due weak perfomance without FSR/NIS scaling and lack of world scale.  

Even more, I tested the perfomance OpenXR variant with scaling through OpenXR Developer Tool to 75% resolution vs OpenVR with scaling through openvr_fsr to 76% and the FPS of OpenVR was 10% better( on RTX 3080Ti)

For a more saturated color, you can use reshade

https://github.com/retroluxfilm/reshade-vrtoolkit

As a MSFS player, I love OpenXR and OpenXR toolkit, but so far this is not about IL-2

 

Edited March 26, 2022 by pepper9881

[SvAF/F16_Goblin]

I must say I find it ok.

I don't find weak performance without OXR toolkit and since I am using on-line servers reshade is not an option since that is deactivated on the servers.

[SvAF/F16_Goblin]

2 hours ago, pepper9881 said:

You missed the discussion:

IL2 hungs when enabling OpenXR Toolkit. Without OXR Toolkit it is useless  due weak perfomance without FSR/NIS scaling and lack of world scale.  

Even more, I tested the perfomance OpenXR variant with scaling through OpenXR Developer Tool to 75% resolution vs OpenVR with scaling through openvr_fsr to 76% and the FPS of OpenVR was 10% better( on RTX 3080Ti)

For a more saturated color, you can use reshade

https://github.com/retroluxfilm/reshade-vrtoolkit

As a MSFS player, I love OpenXR and OpenXR toolkit, but so far this is not about IL-2

 

But You are correct, OXR toolkit need to work so for now SteamVR and the use of necksafer is a better combination for IL-2. In DCS however it is the other way around I think.

[pepper9881]

1 hour ago, SvAF/F16_Goblin said:

I don't find weak performance without OXR toolkit

This depends on your graphic settings of course. Aliasing and shimmering really annoys me and I can't play with less than MSAA 4x on my G2 with most of graphic options on maximum. With these settings OXR is slightly slower than OpenVR on my system

[SvAF/F16_Goblin]

Agree, I also have MSAA 4x activated and everything on HIGH.

There might be a slight performance degradation but I don't notice it. However, since I really want toolkit to work I'm back in SteamVR at the moment.

[[CPT]Crunch]

Not willing to give up necksafer, not in this sim.  OpenXR makes a huge difference in DCS, already have some very good performance in this one with the NIS mod, would like to see the steamVR anchor dumped and left in the dust some day soon though.  Seems to be little doubt now that SteamVR is a big part of the logjam and cause of much of the lackluster performance.

[356thFS_Piranha]

If  you  enable OpenXR for DCS is it also enabled for IL2? Can you use Steam VR for IL2 and OpenXR for DCS without going through a lot of screwing around when switching from Il2 to DCS?

Thanks

[SvAF/F16_Goblin]

1 hour ago, QB.Piranha said:

If  you  enable OpenXR for DCS is it also enabled for IL2? Can you use Steam VR for IL2 and OpenXR for DCS without going through a lot of screwing around when switching from Il2 to DCS?

Thanks

You can use OpenVR FSR for IL-2 and OpenXR for DCS (with toolkit).

Just install per game using OvGME for instance and DCS will use OpenXR and IL-2 will use SteamVR (and WMR depending on headset).

 

I do this myself

Edited March 26, 2022 by SvAF/F16_Goblin

[[CPT]Crunch]

Yes, you can run vanilla or whatever steamVR mod you want in IL-2 as you normally do while using OpenXR with DCS.  Not a problem at all.

[javelina]

On 3/26/2022 at 8:17 AM, [CPT]Crunch said:

Not willing to give up necksafer, not in this sim.  OpenXR makes a huge difference in DCS, already have some very good performance in this one with the NIS mod, would like to see the steamVR anchor dumped and left in the dust some day soon though.  Seems to be little doubt now that SteamVR is a big part of the logjam and cause of much of the lackluster performance.

it sure does!  and I'm glad to wave a fond farewell to SteamVR....  :-)

[dburne]

The Open XR Tools developer is working on eye tracking with foveated rendering for MSFS 2020 and the Aero. Would be nice if somehow he could get it to work with IL-2 and DCS.  I doubt though he will be spending much more resources on something for a headset there are so few of at this time. It would sure be nice though, one can dream. It would be really nice if both IL-2 and DCS could implement native support for Open XR.

Edited March 29, 2022 by dburne

[Pastrana]

I'm one of the many who doesn't get any benefit in DCS with OpenXR, it works better with Steamvr.

[javelina]

15 minutes ago, dburne said:

The Open XR Tools developer is working on eye tracking with foveated rendering for MSFS 2020 and the Aero. Would be nice if somehow he could get it to work with IL-2 and DCS.  I doubt though he will be spending much more resources on something for a headset there are so few of at this time. It would sure be nice though, one can dream. It would be really nice if both IL-2 and DCS could implement native support for Open XR.

I completely agree Don.  Hoping some day it becomes a reality. 

[Thorne]

Unless Necksafer supports OpenXR many of us can't use it, not matter how beneficial it is. Honestly they should just integrate Necksafer into the game.

Edited April 3, 2022 by Thorne

[dburne]

24 minutes ago, Thorne said:

Unless Necksafer supports OpenXR many of us can't use it, not matter how beneficial it is. Honestly they should just integrate Necksafer into the game.

 

You are talking two entirely different things. Necksafer is a mod made by one man to allow users to have unnatural head movements in a headset that has 1:1 head tracking. Open XR is a runtime used for VR and can be used across the board for all VR headsets. However even with that Open XR is already a niche within a niche so it is understandable that developers do not spend time on it (yet). However it's popularity is growing, first with MSFS 2020 shipping with native Open XR Support, and now Varjo offering Open XR support for their Aero products. And now community modders joining in and modding other games to run in Open XR, like DCS which several are now doing with nice results.

 

Your guy that makes the mod you speak of only provides it currently to be used with Steam VR, it would be up to him to offer support for other runtimes, not the VR runtime developers to make his mod work with their runtime. But nothing is stopping you from running Steam VR anyway so you can use the neck mod. Open XR would just be an additional option to run a VR headset in. 

 

I use VR for flight simming several hours a day - each and every day for the most part. Never had a need nor a desire to run that necksafer program. And I have some severe neck and shoulder issues. It is realistic 1:1 tracking for me or nothing.

 

But let's keep this back on topic and that is Open XR, not necksafer mod.

Edited April 3, 2022 by dburne

[[CPT]Crunch]

OpenXR from the Khronos group isn't new, its more like the very foundation and bedrock of all current existing HMD's.  It's pretty much the universal standard of VR software, everyone else builds upon it, in no way is it just a niche, nobody has reinvent that wheel. 

 

And there's nothing unnatural about necksafer, at no point does 1:1 tracking ever disappear or get replaced.

[Alonzo]

I think it's reasonable for someone to say "I need my VR Neck Safer" but equally valid is dburne's point -- it's an addon and could be updated/enhanced to work with OpenXR. I don't actually think the game developers could include head snap functionality even if they wanted to, as it's messing with the camera. I guess maybe they could since they can do spectator views.

 

If I wanted something from the devs right now though it would be making the "death on hard landing" a bit more forgiving, not messing with VR head rotation.

[pepper9881]

The author of OpenXR-Toolkit added VRNeckSafer to the roadmap but with a low priority: 

https://mbucchia.github.io/OpenXR-Toolkit/roadmap.html

Who is really looking forward to it can try to raise the priority in this thread:

https://github.com/mbucchia/OpenXR-Toolkit/issues/283

[dburne]

22 minutes ago, pepper9881 said:

The author of OpenXR-Toolkit added VRNeckSafer to the roadmap but with a low priority: 

https://mbucchia.github.io/OpenXR-Toolkit/roadmap.html

Who is really looking forward to it can try to raise the priority in this thread:

https://github.com/mbucchia/OpenXR-Toolkit/issues/283

 

I would have thought it would be easier for the developer of this neck safer program to add support to his mod for Open XR. 

But I certainly ain't no developer so what do I know. 

[firdimigdi]

Had a go with this briefly last night, performance is pretty much on par with what I get in OpenVR/SteamVR mode in terms of frametimes, but it seems to have a better recovery during scenes with performance degradation.

 

However, the thing that struck me first was that it seems to either impose anisotropic filtering or using some negative mip map bias - some near textures appear clearer in OpenXR mode when compared to OpenVR using the same settings. The difference is quite apparent between the two modes even in the main menu hangar, the stencil lettering on the ground textures are much sharper for example - which makes me think of either the bias change or some higher degree  of anisotropic filtering being forced.

 

Also, for a brief period I managed to somehow get the OpenXR Toolkit to work for about a minute (could even see the FFR kick in), then it froze. Any subsequent attempts just had IL2 freezing on load as others have described - I somehow think it is caused by the way OpenComposite initializes vs what IL2 is expecting or something to that extent. OpenComposite seems to do initialization/transition twice: in the WMR portal you get to see the "loading in to VR mode" animation twice when any game starts (happens both with DCS and with IL2).

[dburne]

1 hour ago, Firdimigdi said:

Had a go with this briefly last night, performance is pretty much on par with what I get in OpenVR/SteamVR mode in terms of frametimes, but it seems to have a better recovery during scenes with performance degradation.

 

However, the thing that struck me first was that it seems to either impose anisotropic filtering or using some negative mip map bias - some near textures appear clearer in OpenXR mode when compared to OpenVR using the same settings. The difference is quite apparent between the two modes even in the main menu hangar, the stencil lettering on the ground textures are much sharper for example - which makes me think of either the bias change or some higher degree  of anisotropic filtering being forced.

 

Also, for a brief period I managed to somehow get the OpenXR Toolkit to work for about a minute (could even see the FFR kick in), then it froze. Any subsequent attempts just had IL2 freezing on load as others have described - I somehow think it is caused by the way OpenComposite initializes vs what IL2 is expecting or something to that extent. OpenComposite seems to do initialization/transition twice: in the WMR portal you get to see the "loading in to VR mode" animation twice when any game starts (happens both with DCS and with IL2).

 

I am now running DCS with Open XR and my Varjo Aero, however it required some files dropped into the DCS bin folder. IL-2 does not? Or maybe it is just WMR it will work with for IL-2?

[firdimigdi]

1 minute ago, dburne said:

 

I am now running DCS with Open XR and my Varjo Aero, however it required some files dropped into the DCS bin folder. IL-2 does not? Or maybe it is just WMR it will work with for IL-2?

No you drop the same files. The method is the same. The OpenComposite hijack works and it starts in Open XR mode, but the OpenXR Toolkit (the one providing access to FSR, foveated rendering, etc) causes the game to hang when it's enabled.

[dburne]

5 minutes ago, Firdimigdi said:

No you drop the same files. The method is the same. The OpenComposite hijack works and it starts in Open XR mode, but the OpenXR Toolkit (the one providing access to FSR, foveated rendering, etc) causes the game to hang when it's enabled.

 

I am no longer using the Toolkit, not a lot of benefit for the Aero. 

Thanks for the info I may give this a shot. Although verdict is still out for me with Open XR hack and DCS. Not sure I am gaining anything with it yet. I have found setting Vsync on in Varjo Base pretty much locks my fps to 45 with high settings and it is very smooth. Not sure if that is related to the Mod though or not, would have to uninstall the mod and test again.

Edited April 6, 2022 by dburne

[firdimigdi]

14 minutes ago, dburne said:

 

I am no longer using the Toolkit, not a lot of benefit for the Aero. 

 

Well then you're good to go in IL-2 as well, just drop the same files in the bin/game dir and off you go.

I am sort of divided, VRNS-support notwithstanding, I did like what I saw when running in OpenXR mode, even when the framerate dipped to 80 or so it seemed to do it more gracefully/less juddery somehow (did repeated runs alternating between OpenXR/OpenVR on a track I recorded) - I'll have to hook up some performance metering to see if that translates into maybe a smoother frametime graph at that point or something (or, in hindsight, it might be using different values for pose prediction so the image is less shakey when this occurs).

 

Performance naturally relies a lot on the handling of the OpenXR runtime by the headset's developers - for WMR headsets it might be more beneficial for now, seeing as MS had focused on OpenXR from the get-go.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Firdimigdi

[pepper9881]

20 hours ago, dburne said:

 

I would have thought it would be easier for the developer of this neck safer program to add support to his mod for Open XR. 

But I certainly ain't no developer so what do I know. 

But the author himself expects this from OpenXR Tollkit ?

https://gitlab.com/NobiWan/vrnecksafer/-/issues/10

[dburne]

2 minutes ago, pepper9881 said:

But the author himself expects this from OpenXR Tollkit ?

https://gitlab.com/NobiWan/vrnecksafer/-/issues/10

 

Well he may be in for a wait then. So he could do it for Steam VR but not Open XR seems odd but again I ain't no developer. I myself don't use the mod anyway.

[firdimigdi]

20 minutes ago, dburne said:

 

Well he may be in for a wait then. So he could do it for Steam VR but not Open XR seems odd but again I ain't no developer. I myself don't use the mod anyway.

 

Actually the problem isn't so much SteamVR/OpenXR - it's that OpenComposite being the workaround that it is, which sits right between the two worlds, doesn't expose the full suite of functions of OpenXR that VRNS would require in order to work.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Firdimigdi

[pepper9881]

43 minutes ago, Firdimigdi said:

 

О, это интересно. Однако по умолчанию FFR (по крайней мере, предполагается) отключен, и все равно IL-2 будет зависать, если включен OpenXR Toolkit.

 

Since the FFR can be turned on in the game on the fly with a hot-keys, its code must already be pre-injected into the game engine by the utility, as it seems to me. And the IL-2 engine does not digest this - I agree with you.
I've done a lot of experiments trying to get vrperfkit to work. With settings:
  favorHorizontal: false
And
#overrideSingleEyeOrder: RLRLRL
I managed to achieve that you can run Quick Missions and the game does not freeze for a long time if you fly alone. As soon as you choose an opponent, the game usually freezes after a few seconds. Thus, the game engine actively hangs when FFR is injected and it is necessary to draw another aircraft.
With OpenComposite and OpenXR Toolkit, the game hangs in the vast majority of cases even at the loading stage, since there is no way to choose the order of rendering first for the right eye and when reducing resolution, prefer to keep vertical resolution which are important for the il2 engine for some unlnown reason

1 hour ago, Firdimigdi said:

I'll try to dick around with it a bit some time, maybe with a debugger attached since we have access to both OpenComposite and Toolkit source codes, and see if I can understand something more about it.

 

Sounds great!

[dburne]

I am going to have to give Open XR a try with IL-2. I am using it with my Aero in DCS with good results. As I understand I just drop the same files in the IL-2 Bin directory and it should work. Normally I am very much against running any Mods but got convinced it would be worth trying in DCS.

[pepper9881]

24 minutes ago, dburne said:

As I understand I just drop the same files in the IL-2 Bin directory and it should work

Yep.

[dburne]

2 hours ago, pepper9881 said:

Yep.

 

Thanks.

I am assuming it is likely the /Bin/Game/ directory?

Also does Mods need to be enabled in IL-2?

I have only tested so far in DCS for the last couple of days. Pretty pleased so far. Tomorrow I am switching DCS back to native Steam VR for the Aero just to compare image and performance at the same settings and same missions. I am now running Varjo Base on Very High setting.

Edited April 6, 2022 by dburne

[feralcat]

2 hours ago, dburne said:

I am going to have to give Open XR a try with IL-2. I am using it with my Aero in DCS with good results. As I understand I just drop the same files in the IL-2 Bin directory and it should work. Normally I am very much against running any Mods but got convinced it would be worth trying in DCS.

I also have an Aero and the night and day results on DCS so I tried the binary drop in and so far haven't got it to work.  Basically it starts to load and then freezes and I have to reboot.  I know in DCS we have to load using the force_steam_vr flag and maybe there is some weirdness that must be discovered for IL-2.  Dunno but I'm glad I'm not the only one with seeing if the performance improvements can be experienced with IL-2.

[firdimigdi]

6 hours ago, feralcat said:

I also have an Aero and the night and day results on DCS so I tried the binary drop in and so far haven't got it to work.  Basically it starts to load and then freezes and I have to reboot.  I know in DCS we have to load using the force_steam_vr flag and maybe there is some weirdness that must be discovered for IL-2.  Dunno but I'm glad I'm not the only one with seeing if the performance improvements can be experienced with IL-2.

 

As noted above, if you have OpenXR Toolkit installed you have to disable it otherwise IL-2 will freeze when loading (you can get away with ctrl+alt+del / task manager and kill the process if it locks up, no need to reboot the PC; or just run it in windowed mode when doing your tests so you can alt-tab out and kill it).

 

  

6 hours ago, dburne said:

Also does Mods need to be enabled in IL-2?

 

No, none of these that replace openvr_api.dll required "mods on".

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by Firdimigdi

[dburne]

4 hours ago, Firdimigdi said:

 

No, none of these that replace openvr_api.dll required "mods on".

 

 

Ok thanks much.

[feralcat]

11 hours ago, Firdimigdi said:

 

As noted above, if you have OpenXR Toolkit installed you have to disable it otherwise IL-2 will freeze when loading (you can get away with ctrl+alt+del / task manager and kill the process if it locks up, no need to reboot the PC; or just run it in windowed mode when doing your tests so you can alt-tab out and kill it).

 

  

 

No, none of these that replace openvr_api.dll required "mods on".

 

 

I'm not running OpenXR Toolkit when trying to load.  If you are saying you have an Aero and are able to drop the binary in and then it just loads for you with all the performance goodness then I need to figure out what is freezing up IL-2.  My suspicion is something with the Varjo Base and having that configured right (ie OpenVR off or OpenXR on) but haven't fiddled wtih it yet.  I'm interested to see if this works for @dburne

 

 

[firdimigdi]

28 minutes ago, feralcat said:

 

I'm not running OpenXR Toolkit when trying to load.  If you are saying you have an Aero and are able to drop the binary in and then it just loads for you with all the performance goodness then I need to figure out what is freezing up IL-2.  My suspicion is something with the Varjo Base and having that configured right (ie OpenVR off or OpenXR on) but haven't fiddled wtih it yet.  I'm interested to see if this works for @dburne

 

No, I do not have an Aero. I am using a G2. If it works in DCS, and you don't use the toolkit then no idea what else might be there for you to check out.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Firdimigdi

[feralcat]

14 minutes ago, Firdimigdi said:

 

No, I do not have an Aero. I am using a G2. No idea if Aeros should work with this, if they don't then it's likely down to the support their software has for the OpenXR runtime.

 

 

Thanks for clearing that up.  Since it works with the G2 I'm thinking it might be something with selecting the OpenXR runtime, or some IL-2 command line option (like with DCS). 

 

[dburne]

1 hour ago, feralcat said:

 

I'm not running OpenXR Toolkit when trying to load.  If you are saying you have an Aero and are able to drop the binary in and then it just loads for you with all the performance goodness then I need to figure out what is freezing up IL-2.  My suspicion is something with the Varjo Base and having that configured right (ie OpenVR off or OpenXR on) but haven't fiddled wtih it yet.  I'm interested to see if this works for @dburne

 

 

 

I may not try it. After a lot of testing over the last couple of days I have found I prefer the image in DCS at least using native Steam VR rather than Open XR with my Aero. Open XR was also only giving me an additional 3-5 fps over Steam VR. Image quality and colors seem to pop more for me in Steam VR. So I have deleted that Mod. I anticipate I would likely see the same in IL-2.

Edited April 7, 2022 by dburne