In praise of the Ju-88C (and why we need more aircraft like it)

[Avimimus]

BoN has a lot of desirable aircraft - including very high performance ones, and ones not modeled before. The Ju-88C-6a isn't high performance, but it is something that hasn't been modeled in a fidelity flight sim before.

 

I think it provides a unique experience, and that it would be good if future modules aimed to have at least one or two of their 10 aircraft unexpected choices that provide very new experiences.

 

I think BoN had a perfect mix from a marketing perspective - include popular aircraft (P-51, P-47, Spit XIV, Mosquito), a very high performance techno-freaky aircraft (Ar-234), aircraft that have often been overlooked but have good performance (Typhoon, Me-410), and one aircraft that is there to provide a unique, perhaps challenging, new experience for us folks who have been flying flight sims for more than twenty years band want something new (Ju-88C-6a).

 

I think that we should feel quite lucky to have the IAR-80/81 and the Lisunov Li-2 planned as Collector Aircraft. We've seen the IAR-80 in Il-2 and it is a lovely plane to fly, even if its performance isn't good on paper. The Lisunov Li-2 will be completely new and unique.

 

P.S. I was going to necro the old "more Cr@p planes" thread but couldn't find it.

 

 

As for the Ju-88C-6a:

 

It is more fun than I expected. It is a real blast to strafe with it. The cannons are very effective. The fact that they are angled downward may well have been to match the overall attitude angle in cruise flight - but once half the fuel is gone they actually do allow strafing without having to dive as steeply.

 

With its big wings I find it is nicer to fly than the Bf-110. It has poor acceleration in a dive, but that actually makes strafing easier. That said, the big wings are more likely to catch on trees! I'm also finding that I'm bombing ships surprisingly accurately with it!

 

It is a bit twitchy in pitch sometimes, but it is an excellent gun platform. I'm getting shots on bombers at ranges which I wouldn't when flying any other aircraft. The mixed MG-FF and MG-151/20 armament also helps with 'bracketing' a target at long ranges. It also has a decent turn of speed compared to a fully loaded bomber (especially if you are willing to risk burning out your engines).

 

We wouldn't have any of these experiences if the devs weren't willing to explore outside the conventional wisdom about what makes a 'good plane'.

[ROCKET_KNUT]

And in the correct lighting it looks quite hot. ?

 

It is a nice toy to play with. 

[Docholiday]

Yes You are right !!!

 

 

I love the Ju-88C too ❤️   AND YES we need more planes like this too : Mosquito (fortunately on the way ?),   Beaufighter,   B-25J with the solid ultimate straffer nose,   A-20G, A-26 Invader, Blenheim IVF   ...... only to name the nicest of this breed  ?

 

 

I love Your Work !!

 

 

Doc

[JimTM]

1 hour ago, Avimimus said:

...

As for the Ju-88C-6a:

 

It is more fun than I expected. It is a real blast to strafe with it.

...

 

...and it's a blast to taxi with. I can actually see where I'm going (and see all my instruments too, without peeking around gun parts).  

[ShamrockOneFive]

Yep! Agreed! When I saw the Ju88C-6 on the BoN aircraft list I was actually pretty excited. The whole set is fantastic and it includes some aircraft that I've very much wanted to fly... the C-6 among them. I've wanted a C-6 for years having flown the A-4 a lot in IL-2 1946 and finding there were times where an attack version with some guns in the nose would have been nice to have. Then I learned that they actually made such an aircraft and... so here we are!

[Redwo1f]

Hahaha, I love it too! In fact, from what I expected to like the most of the three to what is the reality now that it is out has been flipped on it's head - with the Ju-88C my favorite, followed by the Handley Page, and the Gotha now on the bottom ?

[kendo]

Same reaction for me. Ju88 C-6 just went from 'also ran' to wow! after my first flight just now.

 

Can see me trying a campaign with it. Total change of pace. Beautifully modelled. Love it!    

[BlitzPig_EL]

In non contested airspace it will be a very good attack aircraft.  However, it is a very large target for AAA gunners.  Flak suppression will be even more important than when using the FW 190, or Allied single seaters for ground attack use.  It's pretty useless against other aircraft as well.  B25s just run away from it and there is nothing you can do to catch them.  If bomber hunting with a heavy fighter is your thing, then wait for the 410.

 

I've been enjoying it, don't get me wrong, but it's not "the new best" if any opposition is about.

[CountZero]

Game works best for fighter or ground attack airplanes, no suprise bomber with forward guns will work great in it.

Im just suprised that C model can carry outside bombs, i never saw that available for it before this game.

 

[sevenless]

A-20G, Bring it on!

 

Edited March 17, 2022 by sevenless

[jeanba]

7 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

In non contested airspace it will be a very good attack aircraft.  However, it is a very large target for AAA gunners.  Flak suppression will be even more important than when using the FW 190, or Allied single seaters for ground attack use.  It's pretty useless against other aircraft as well.  B25s just run away from it and there is nothing you can do to catch them.  If bomber hunting with a heavy fighter is your thing, then wait for the 410.

 

I've been enjoying it, don't get me wrong, but it's not "the new best" if any opposition is about.

I also tested its vulnerability to Flak : in all the ground attck missions I did, I returned with smoke and holes (when I could return). I need to rework my tactics

Anyway, as far as I am concerned, enjoying a plane has nothing to do with its performances. 

[AndyJWest]

32 minutes ago, jeanba said:

...as far as I am concerned, enjoying a plane has nothing to do with its performances. 

+1

 

 

[SqueakyS]

15 hours ago, Docholiday said:

Yes You are right !!!

 

 

I love the Ju-88C too ❤️   AND YES we need more planes like this too : Mosquito (fortunately on the way ?),   Beaufighter,   B-25J with the solid ultimate straffer nose,   A-20G, A-26 Invader, Blenheim IVF   ...... only to name the nicest of this breed  ?

 

 

I love Your Work !!

 

 

Doc

Don't forget the Beaufort. Very underrepresented in sims.

[KPnutskgwanchos]

It is a beauty but nowhere near the fun , agility and speed of the A-20. No idea if the A20 in game is modelled accurately but with some serious forward firepower it must have been formidable IRL!     

[easterling77]

Just flew my first career mission in the Kuban theatre.

 

I was very curious about the C6 and I have to say I like it, or even more...

 

Yes the distances are very far but in combination with the use of the onboard radio navigation (even if its simplified) makes it quite immersive....flying low at about 500-600m over ground towards the smoke and dust of the frontline/combat zone gave me thinking like "okay this is it"?

 

And shredding ground targets....hey I'm a mud mover?

 

In summary, I'm so happy that the team gave us this awesome crate - I'm loving this Big Bad Bird

[unlikely_spider]

I don't see any tutorial videos on this yet - how much does it differ from the earlier JU-88 in the game?

[Avimimus]

28 minutes ago, unlikely_spider said:

I don't see any tutorial videos on this yet - how much does it differ from the earlier JU-88 in the game?

 

The Ju-88C-6a is faster and has three fixed forward firing machine guns and three fixed forward firing cannons. It has one of its internal bomb-bays and one pair of external bomb racks removed (although its total maximum bomb-load is similar). There is also an option for a late cockpit with armoured glass and the rearward firing light machine-guns replaced by a heavy machine gun for defense. So, it is a long range naval fighter and intruder version (rather than a bomber version).

 

 

11 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

However, it is a very large target for AAA gunners.  Flak suppression will be even more important than when using the FW 190, or Allied single seaters for ground attack use.

 

Yes - Good point - I've found that I wish it had some armour for the engines!

 

It is very good at clearing all of the anti-aircraft guns from a train, but it usually loses an engine in return. In the advanced quick mission generator I took out six anti-aircraft guns in it after bombing a target - however, four of those were heavy anti-aircraft guns - so only two were really a threat once I was down low.

 

Btw. It'd be neat to have flak suppression as a mission type (e.g. Typhoons).

 

 

11 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I've been enjoying it, don't get me wrong, but it's not "the new best" if any opposition is about.

 

Well, I think that was the point of the original post ? The Me-410 and Mosquito will also be pretty vulnerable when opposition is about too. Really the Spit XIV, Mustang III and Ar-234 are the 'competitive' ones. Anyway, it is definitely good to have a 'new best' in a plane-set, but having something unique and challenging is also worth it (especially for those of us who've been flying sims for more than two decades and think 'we've seen it all').

 

 

 

17 hours ago, Docholiday said:

I love the Ju-88C too ❤️   AND YES we need more planes like this too : Mosquito (fortunately on the way ?),   Beaufighter,   B-25J with the solid ultimate straffer nose,   A-20G, A-26 Invader, Blenheim IVF   ...... only to name the nicest of this breed  ?

 

You are missing the Pe-3 in that list!! It would be as easy to do as the A-20G-1 (as both are similar to aircraft already researched by the team). By Stalingrad (and into the late war) the Pe-3 were usually flying reconnaissance - but in Moscow they were initially used for everything - attacking bombers, hitting ground targets, massing to attack German airfields (imagine twenty of them descending to strafe a Luftwaffe airfield).

 

You can try flying a sortie or two with the Pe-2 and then imagine what it'd be like with twice the firepower.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Avimimus

[sevenless]

nvm

Edited March 17, 2022 by sevenless

[Blitzen]

What are tyou he weapon options for the Ju-88 C-6. I assume the skin options for the plane are still limited at this point?

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, Avimimus said:

There is also an option for a late cockpit with armoured glass and the rearward firing light machine-guns replaced by a heavy machine gun for defense.

 

The armored glass and MG 131 were already being fitted in the winter of 1942/43, so those aren't really "late" options.

[percydanvers]

I am delighted with it. Ever since I read about the strafer B-25s of the pacific I've wanted to fly that sort of mission (i.e. big plane, lots of guns destroying ground targets) and I'm thrilled to say the Ju-88C fits the bill! There have been other aircraft that come close, like the A-20 or the Bf-110 but nothing quite like the Ju-88C. I did an airfield raid with it in the AQMB and I think I destroyed every single destroyable thing on that airfield. It's incredible! 

[jeanba]

How did you avoid Flak ?

[CUJO_1970]

Now imagine this plane with much more powerful BMW 801 or Jumo-213 engines like were in service in ‘43 and ‘44 ?

 

[FliegerAD]

Can you remove the gondola for better performance?
(tbh, I don't know if that was ever done in service)

[easterling77]

Yes they where

 

look for Ju 88 G and S

 

but sideways I'm very happy and satisfied with the C6...it has charm

Edited March 17, 2022 by easterling77

[Avimimus]

3 hours ago, LukeFF said:

The armored glass and MG 131 were already being fitted in the winter of 1942/43, so those aren't really "late" options.

 

Well... later than the other options? That was my assumption anyway! Still - it is great to have the info about when they started to appear!

 

 

30 minutes ago, easterling77 said:

Yes they where

 

look for Ju 88 G and S

 

but sideways I'm very happy and satisfied with the C6...it has charm

 

Well... the Ju-88G would require radar modelling (which makes it less likely) and I'm not sure how many references there are for the S? I'd personally prefer the extra firepower of the Ju-188 (Up to two 20mm and two 13mm turrets) over the increased speed of the Ju-88S (same defense as the Ju-88C-6). But I also really like the Ju-188 cockpit layout... so I'm biased.

 

4 hours ago, Blitzen said:

What are tyou he weapon options for the Ju-88 C-6. I assume the skin options for the plane are still limited at this point?

 

Default: 3xMG17 machine gun and 3xMG-FF/M 20mm cannon (with six drums of ammunition).

Optional: Replace one MG-FF/M with an MG-151/20 cannon (more ammunition, higher velocity).

Optional: Rear bomb-bay with up to 10xSC50 bombs (500kg bomb load)

Optional: Underwing bomb racks with up to 2xSC1000 bombs (2000kg bomb load)

Optional: Replacing the defensive MG-81 light machine guns with a more streamlined turret housing a single MG-131 13mm heavy machine gun (with over 500 rounds of ammunition).

 

Note: Two of the 20mm cannons replace the ventral gunner - so there is only the one defense dorsal gunner position in the Ju-88C6.

 

  

36 minutes ago, FliegerAD said:

Can you remove the gondola for better performance?
(tbh, I don't know if that was ever done in service)

 

This wasn't modeled. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't someone say that it was just a few Ju-88R which received this field mod? @LukeFFYou seem to be on top of things Ju-88?

Edited March 17, 2022 by Avimimus

[LukeFF]

34 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

This wasn't modeled. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't someone say that it was just a few Ju-88R which received this field mod? @LukeFFYou seem to be on top of things Ju-88?

 

Yes, as far as I know, this was only done with the R series. 

[Fafnir_6]

I don't think we'll get a Ju88G until large night bombers and radar become a thing in IL-2GB. 

 

The Ju88R-2 in it's naval fighter form would be very similar to the Ju88C-6 we just got.  The only difference would the BMW801 engines and associated gauges & systems. I think the bulk of the work needed to get this in game would be flight modelling with just a little 3D and skinning work.  The performance gain would be quite significant (I've heard 50-75km/h speed boost).  The big question with the Ju88R is how well would it help the career modes?  I'm not sure how widely deployed the R-series was.  I suppose it could be added as a multiplayer-focused premium if it's not super helpful for the career mode.  It was used historically in Normandy.

 

The Ju88S-series would be most interesting, I think, as it would replace the Ju88A-4 in 1943-44 engagements.  These all omitted the "bola" ventral gondola, had a new streamlined nose glazing and had GM-1 boost coupled with either the BMW801 (Ju88S-1 & Ju88S-2) or the Jumo213 (Ju88S-3).  You could add a camera loadout to these to give us the Ju88T-series reconnaissance plane.  Again, I'm not sure about deployments here...I know the Ju88T-1 was present in Italy, while the Ju88S was used in Normandy in early 1944. I don't know about any Eastern front use.  Apparently the Ju88S-1 was the most produced variant.

 

 

49 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

 

 I'd personally prefer the extra firepower of the Ju-188 (Up to two 20mm and two 13mm turrets) over the increased speed of the Ju-88S (same defense as the Ju-88C-6). But I also really like the Ju-188 cockpit layout... so I'm biased.
 

 

Oh man, a Ju-188 would rule!

 

Fafnir_6

Edited March 17, 2022 by Fafnir_6
clarity

[LukeFF]

10 minutes ago, Fafnir_6 said:

The Ju88R-2 in it's naval fighter form would be very similar to the Ju88C-6 we just got.  The only difference would the BMW801 engines and associated gauges & systems. I think the bulk of the work needed to get this in game would be flight modelling with just a little 3D and skinning work.  The performance gain would be quite significant (I've heard 50-75km/h speed boost).  The big question with the Ju88R is how well would it help the career modes?  I'm not sure how widely deployed the R-series was.  I suppose it could be added as a multiplayer-focused premium if it's not super helpful for the career mode.  It was used historically in Normandy.

 

It would work for Normandy - I./ZG 1 (also operating C-6s in France) started receiving R-2s in October 1943 and at the beginning of June 1944 had 10 R-2s on hand. III./ZG 1 had a few as well, but it was a very small number (3 during June and July 1944).

[Fafnir_6]

28 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

It would work for Normandy - I./ZG 1 (also operating C-6s in France) started receiving R-2s in October 1943 and at the beginning of June 1944 had 10 R-2s on hand. III./ZG 1 had a few as well, but it was a very small number (3 during June and July 1944).

Do we know if it was used in any other theatres (Ostfront, Italy, etc.)?

 

Fafnir_6

[Guest deleted@134347]

1 hour ago, FliegerAD said:

Can you remove the gondola for better performance?
(tbh, I don't know if that was ever done in service)

 

you can remove the top 2 "nipple turrets" as someone succinctly pointed out... The bottom one is fixed.

[LukeFF]

46 minutes ago, Fafnir_6 said:

Do we know if it was used in any other theatres (Ostfront, Italy, etc.)?

 

Fafnir_6

 

Not sure. 

[oc2209]

Here's a Ju-88C takeoff for anyone who hasn't yet flown it:

 

Spoiler

 

 

I'm not claiming good technique here; just showing that it's not that hard to stay on the runway. In subsequent attempts (honestly, I've not flown the bomber Ju-88 often, and taken off with it even less), I improved a little, and managed to keep straighter.

 

Here's a night intercept with the Ju-88C fully kitted out; flame dampeners, armored glass, and the MG151/20:

 

Spoiler

 

 

I think the flame dampeners really work against the AI, because this is what happens when you start shooting at the (ace) AI without them (in a Bf-110):

 

Spoiler

 

 

The AI doesn't seem to start firing at night before you do; but I wouldn't doubt if flame dampeners make it harder for it to zero in on you as quickly as it does without them.

[Avimimus]

24 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

The AI doesn't seem to start firing at night before you do; but I wouldn't doubt if flame dampeners make it harder for it to zero in on you as quickly as it does without them.

 

I noticed that with anti-aircraft guns! When flying the U-2VS at night one could sometimes get close enough to take out the anti-aircraft truck in a group of vehicles before it responded. It is pretty neat. I feel like search times, the ability to miss spotting a target (or lose contact with it), and the impact of clouds on AI could all be improved - but it seems night does have an effect and that AI is slower to respond if you don't fire. It'd be extremely cool if flame-dampers add to this effect (and it'd make me want them for the He-111 and Ju-87 as well!).

[oc2209]

21 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

but it seems night does have an effect and that AI is slower to respond if you don't fire. It'd be extremely cool if flame-dampers add to this effect (and it'd make me want them for the He-111 and Ju-87 as well!).

 

I never felt a strong compulsion to fly at night before this update, but now, under a full moon at least, it's pretty enjoyable. The AI reacting to lighting conditions is definitely an unexpected plus.

 

This is making me mildly hopeful for some dedicated night fighters (sans radar, of course--we can live without it with a few workarounds) to be released someday. 

[Alexmarine]

24 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

This is making me mildly hopeful for some dedicated night fighters (sans radar, of course--we can live without it with a few workarounds) to be released someday. 

 

I mean, by your definition we already have some night fighters that have no radar: both Bf110, the various 109 and 190 used by the Wilde Säu, any soviet plane (and lend-leased ones) that were in use with the PVO, even i guess some of the already available RAF fighters saw some service as night fighters...

For radar-less night fighters it is more an issue of units trained to operate them in night conditions than having specific "dedicated radar-less night-fighters". Would definitely prefer in the long run to find a way to include some radar mechanics in the game for some proper advanced night combat operations 

[Avimimus]

Mosquito FB.VI were also used as night fighters (often without radar but with serrat for passive radar homing on German night fighters).

 

That said, a lot of the Wilde Säu units in the west were being vectored by ground-control weren't they? So still some radar, even if not on-board.

[oc2209]

1 hour ago, Alexmarine said:

Would definitely prefer in the long run to find a way to include some radar mechanics in the game for some proper advanced night combat operations 

 

Well, yeah, but I'd also prefer to have a billion dollars to materialize in front of me. Doesn't mean it will ever happen.

 

My statement was made under the assumption that the devs have no current plans to implement functional radar. It'd be even more complex if it were to work like, say, a human operated gunner position.

 

The most we can likely hope for, is to have an unusable-by-human-player radar operator position in the plane (meaning it'd take a 3-man crew, which would require modifications to the Bf-110s we currently have, hence my meaning of 'dedicated night fighter', to say nothing of entirely new planes like the He-219). The AI radar operator would issue directions to us, like '1000m, bearing XYZ, closing', which we would need to follow to get close to a target.

 

Current game mechanics could probably be fudged to approximate the use of radar without genuinely simulating radar use. I'm not expecting them to ever make a full-fledged radar mechanic just for the niche-within-a-niche that is night interception.

[NightFighter]

1 hour ago, Avimimus said:

That said, a lot of the Wilde Säu units in the west were being vectored by ground-control weren't they? So still some radar, even if not on-board.

 

Yes, most Wilde Sau units were vectored by ground controllers, but some aircraft, especially the Bf 109G-6s in service, were fitted with the FuG 350 Z Naxos passive homing system. Naxos Z operated like the Mosquito's serrate system you mentioned earlier, and it detected RAF bombers from their H2S radar emissions, all the way up to 50km in range. You can see the system on this Bf 109, the little bulb after the canopy. The bottom image is an example of the display, which could only indicate the relative direction that the signal was being received from. Altitude or the distance of the target could not discerned, so ground control was still used extensively even with this system. 

[dannytherat]

6 hours ago, Avimimus said:

Mosquito FB.VI were also used as night fighters (often without radar but with serrat for passive radar homing on German night fighters).

I may be wrong, but I don't believe the Mosquito FB.VI carried Serrate. As far as I know that was only used on the Mosquito NF.II (and Beaufighters).

 

The FB.VIs used on night-time intruder missions were frequently tasked with hanging around near German nightfighter bases on the nights of RAF Bomber Command raids, waiting for nightfighters to return from interceptions. The Mosquito crews would attempt to acquire the nightfighters by visual means only as they made their return to base.

 

The radar war being fought between

the RAF and the Luftwaffe from about 1943 onwards is really interesting (to me at least) with the to and fro of measure and countermeasure. I imagine it would be incredibly difficult to implement in game though, and probably of limited appeal - not least because of mission durations in the region of four to six hours or so in terms of the nightfighters for historical accuracy, and obviously also the vexed question of implementing radar convincingly in a game setting.