Next investment after VR: Simshaker or premium throttle?

[Youtch]

I recently joined the VR boat, after finding a bargain sale on Reverb G2.

 

Although it is far from being perfect (I was somehow disappointed image was so blurry compared to monitor and ridiculously small sweet spot), it is such a nice experience that I realize I will probably never play anymore on my monitor. And i was among those initially convinced that it would be nice to alternate from one to another, but somehow never went back to monitor since I got the G2.

 

I already had a nice premium joystick and I was wondering what would be the next step in my journey simulatio.

 

I am currently using a Thrustmaster TWCS throtle, with no detent making it hard to know when I reach WEP and I was considering to upgrade at some point with T-CM3 or whatever VKB might come up with its electronic detents.

 

Then I read about Simshaker and I was curious about what it offers in terms of experience, and how it feels and what it reallly brings in terms of immersion.

I didn t know anything about it till very recently. And this looks like a very niche market with not many companies proposing products

 

What would you recommend as next investment for VR: Simshaker/JetPad or nice Throttle?

Immersion vs more precise gameplay, very subjective and hard choice to make.

 

I play exclusively IL2, no much interest for the time being in modern jets nor bus driving with MSFS ?

I don t like car racing at all, nor play much video games.

 

Thank you very much in advance for your advices,

y.

 

[unlikely_spider]

If this helps, I spent very little on my sim shaker setup. Hardware-wise, it just takes a cheap amplifier (like $20) along with a bass transducer (like $16) plus speaker wire. Then the software license. That's really all you need if you find somewhere to put the transducer puck on your chair. I put mine where the lumbar support cushion is, and it's awesome.

[VilsonFarias]

I recently upgraded my Thrustmaster Warthog to full Virpil kit and a Buttkicker. The Virpil throttle is one step above in quality and feel, besides the buttom layout is much better since it's more generic. 

 

The buttkicker (or any other similar device) is a completly different experience though. Now I can "feel" the engine, I can't play without it anymore.

 

Buy Buttkicker fist, it's very fun, then upgrade your throttle.

Edited February 3, 2022 by VilsonFarias

[Drum]

Also, I upgraded my TWCS throttle with this mod which comes with magnetic detents (up to four total) and the instructions to setup were pretty slick really.  Incase you don't want to change the throttle.

 

Just go into the game and find the % settings that you like for the plane types you fly mostly, for example the 109's switch into combat power above 60%.  Or, just use the RPM gauge and do it the old fashion way.  ?

 

Slider Upgrade Kit Thrustmaster T16000M TWCS Throttle | Etsy Canada

Edited February 3, 2022 by Drum
more info

[dburne]

Virpil CM3 Throttle is one great piece of equipment.

Just sayin...

[Youtch]

1 hour ago, VilsonFarias said:

I recently upgraded my Thrustmaster Warthog to full Virpil kit and a Buttkicker. The Virpil throttle is one step above in quality and feel, besides the buttom layout is much better since it's more generic. 

 

The buttkicker (or any other similar device) is a completly different experience though. Now I can "feel" the engine, I can't play without it anymore.

 

Buy Buttkicker fist, it's very fun, then upgrade your throttle.

 

You have it connected to audio or to USB with special software?

 

I live in Europe-Spain, and buttkicker is harder to procure.

 

I have read also that it can get very noisy, making it unpleasant to people around (I don t have the luxury of isolated myself in garage or underground facilities.

[Charlo-VRde]

+1 from me for SimShaker Wings paired with a JetPad FSE (flight sim edition).  I'm still rocking a CH Fighterstick, though ?

 

The eight, small JetPad motors spread across your back and seat really provide specific vibrations depending upon what's happening to your plane, e.g. damage to the left side, landing gear touching down, left engine start and running vs. right engine start and running.

 

The JetPad is also very quiet to anyone not sitting directly on it.

 

The only downside is that IL-2 doesn't yet output flak sound as telemetry data... but a Buttkicker with the sound input coming from the game engine (instead of SimShaker) certainly does shake you when flak bursts. I've darn near jumped out of my Camel when an airburst startled me way back in my ROF days.

[Youtch]

The main decision is which is likely to put the biggest smile on my face.

 

More immersion sounds fun, but I don t know if it will leave a lasting impression.

 

I will have to study more between buttkicker and jetpad.

 

 

2 hours ago, Drum said:

Also, I upgraded my TWCS throttle with this mod which comes with magnetic detents (up to four total) and the instructions to setup were pretty slick really.  Incase you don't want to change the throttle.

Thanks for the tip, I might give it a try!

[VilsonFarias]

2 hours ago, Youtch said:

 

You have it connected to audio or to USB with special software?

 

I live in Europe-Spain, and buttkicker is harder to procure.

 

I have read also that it can get very noisy, making it unpleasant to people around (I don t have the luxury of isolated myself in garage or underground facilities.

 

There are several ways to connect. You can connect connect a splitter cable to your soundboard, then plug your earphone and the buttkicker to the splitter. You can also use an program called VoiceMeter to send your audio to multiple ouputs (like your sound card and a bluethoot headphone at the same time - that's how I use it). In other words, you can do any combination you want, from sub-woofer audio output, home theather receivers and even headphones plugs if you use a notebook.

 

The buttkicker is actually something so simple that you can build one by yourself. It's basically an audio amplifier and a tactile subwoofer. If you have your computer connected to an home theater receiver you can even connect the tactile subwoofer to one of its subwoofer outputs.

 

The idea behind these tactitle subwoofers is to transform the low-frequency sound coming from your soundcard into vibration. In other words, you will feel the engine, ground during takeoff, guns and hits shaking your body.

 

What Buttkicker does as a product is to deliver everything in a single package, make sure everything is compatible and also provide a lot of differente cables and connectors. 

It's hard to find Buttkickers in Europe because you can't buy from their site, the deliver only to USA. Even in USA is not very easy to find.

But if you want to create one by yourself you will find some recipes in the internet, just google for buttkicker alternative. The only thing you must pay attention is that the subwoofer and amplifier impedance and power must match, that's all. 

 

There are two "types", the Buttkicker Gamer2 and Buttkicker Kit for Simulators. Both work exactly the same way, the difference is the Buttkicker Kit for Simulators is easier to fix, the Gamer 2 has an arm that is more suitable to use with office/gamer chairs. I bought the Buttkicker simulator kit for myself.

 

Good luck

 

 

 

[TheSNAFU]

I have the Buttkicker gamer 2 and haven’t played without it since I got it . Combined with vr it adds another dimension to the simulation. Getting the sense of being in the cockpit produced by vr and then feeling the engine, landings, guns firing, well it just can’t be beat in my opinion. If you have no immediate need for a higher end throttle I suggest getting the buttkicker or something similar. 

[Varibraun]

1 hour ago, TheSNAFU said:

I have the Buttkicker gamer 2 and haven’t played without it since I got it . Combined with vr it adds another dimension to the simulation. Getting the sense of being in the cockpit produced by vr and then feeling the engine, landings, guns firing, well it just can’t be beat in my opinion. If you have no immediate need for a higher end throttle I suggest getting the buttkicker or something similar. 

 

6 hours ago, dburne said:

Virpil CM3 Throttle is one great piece of equipment.

Just sayin...

 

They are both right of course...I have the CM3, Buttkicker, and Jetpad.  However, if you asked me which one I would GIVE UP first in VR it would definitely be the nice throttle.  Simshaker is second only to VR in the immersion it brings.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Varibraun

[firdimigdi]

9 hours ago, Drum said:

Also, I upgraded my TWCS throttle with this mod which comes with magnetic detents (up to four total) and the instructions to setup were pretty slick really.  Incase you don't want to change the throttle.

 

Just go into the game and find the % settings that you like for the plane types you fly mostly, for example the 109's switch into combat power above 60%.  Or, just use the RPM gauge and do it the old fashion way.  ?

 

Slider Upgrade Kit Thrustmaster T16000M TWCS Throttle | Etsy Canada

 

This is a good one - use graphite bushings instead of linear bearings, degrease the axles fully and buff them with 2000->2500 grit so they are super extra smooth and it transforms the throttle completely.

 

And while we're on the subject of upgrading the TWCS:

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by Firdimigdi
things

[Drum]

Smartly done, Firdimigdi.  I'm quite impressed with the TWCS and still use mine with a VKB stick.  Too bad I didn't see that post before getting a pair of Saitek throttle quadrants.  Would have saved me a couple hundred!

[Youtch]

Thank you very much for all those answers! Much appreciated.

 

You convinced me to go for some shaking device.

 

Buttkicker works only with sound? What does it mean exactly? That any sound in the game trigger a vibration? The noise of another plane engine or anything external to my plane will also trigger vibration? This is not bothering?

 

I thought there was a way to feed it through simshaker as well, if you buy the corresponding program.

 

 

5 hours ago, Varibraun said:

.I have the CM3, Buttkicker, and Jetpad

So you have both? Are you running both at the same time?

 

How do they compare one to another?

 

What i like about buttkicker is that I will set it up once for all.

 

The localization of vibration with jetpad is really a game changer in terms of experience or it is only a nice to have?

 

My gaming chair is also my work chair and i didn t want to spend all day long seated on jetpad, so i would have to put it and remove it each time I play, which would be cumbersome.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Youtch

[Charlo-VRde]

I stopped using my Buttkicker once I received my JetPad, as I prefer the specific location information provided by the JetPad.

 

I should add the Buttkicker to the mix so that I can feel other sounds that are not included in the telemetry data that SimShaker can read, such as flak, but it's a tad complicated getting the Buttkicker to work along with my G2 audio. I have to fiddle around with the Buttkicker connections, which my 55 year old body does not appreciate 

Edited February 4, 2022 by Charlo-VR

[shirazjohn]

I have the Jetpad also and have been very pleased with it, i can only say i can't fly without it now,  if I've accidentally left it off i have to cancel the mission and restart. I think it also helps with flying skills you can feel the shudders when you are about to enter a stall and when landing if your airspeed is to high you can feel the aircraft start to shudder violently.

 

I would say you wouldn't have any problems leaving it attached to the seat it is quite soft and padded,  before i built my sim seat i used to leave it on my swivel chair with no problems .

 

I've never owned a buttkicker so i can't compare but probably won't go wrong either way.

 

I ordered from Andre and it delivered from Russia to the Uk within about 10 days i think including clearing customs. 

[Youtch]

Thank you very much, this is fantastic insight for me.

 

I was afraid i would feel the motors beneath after 8 hours working on the desk.

 

What about durability, what is the lifespan to expect from those vibrating motors?

 

I understand that regarding seat shaking version, there are not many alternatives in the market, a part of Andre s jetpad.

 

Realteus product despite looking nicer having such bad feedback in termos of delivery/quality and gametrix being discontinued.

 

Or am I missing something?

 

Thank you very much again.

[shirazjohn]

14 minutes ago, Youtch said:

What about durability, what is the lifespan to expect from those vibrating motors?

That's a good question,  I've had mine for about 18 months playing a couple of hours a day most days and haven't had any issues so far but i imagine the little vibrating motors are replaceable. The cushion has a zip on the back so you can easily get to the motors.

[firdimigdi]

9 hours ago, Youtch said:

Buttkicker works only with sound? What does it mean exactly? That any sound in the game trigger a vibration? The noise of another plane engine or anything external to my plane will also trigger vibration? This is not bothering?

 

I've got two bass transducers by Dayton hooked up in stereo mode and powered by an old car-audio amp I had lying around. Through SimShaker's telemetry reader you get distinct vibrations for left/right depending on in-game events (not audio) and based on the parameters you've set.

 

9 hours ago, Youtch said:

My gaming chair is also my work chair and i didn t want to spend all day long seated on jetpad, so i would have to put it and remove it each time I play, which would be cumbersome.

 

Mine as well - for that reason I added a 4 pin molex connector which I tuck away in the seat when not in use, 2 cables per transducer, when it's time to play I just hook it up and turn on the amp. You could just as easily use a large stereo jack or similar - I just happened to have the molex lying around.

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by Firdimigdi

[TheSNAFU]

2 hours ago, shirazjohn said:

What about durability, what is the lifespan to expect from those vibrating motors?

I've had the Buttkicker Gamer 2 for at least 5 years. No problems and stills works like new. 

[[CPT]Crunch]

Still running a buttkicker gen 1 original, but I would throw it in the dump before I'd ever traded in the virpil first series throttle for any sort of downgrade.

[Charlo-VRde]

The Buttkicker lasts years and years, I’ve had mine for something like 10 years now, and even when not gaming it is great to have bolted to an office chair as you listen to music or watch movies. It allows you to have the volume lower but still enjoy since the added bass vibration makes the music or movie seem louder.

 

The JetPad seems quite robust, too, as I have hundreds of hours on mine flying in VR during the pandemic. Because it is sandwiched between my thighs and a thickly-cushioned seat, I have recently taken to putting frozen ice packs under the front-most motors of the JetPad, as I’ve noticed those can get quite hot after a few hours of nonstop flying.

[dburne]

My buttkicker has so far lasted me over 15 years.

(Happens to be My Wife)...

Edited February 4, 2022 by dburne

[TheSNAFU]

30 minutes ago, dburne said:

My buttkicker has so far lasted me over 15 years.

(Happens to be My Wife)...

LMAO!!

[Varibraun]

15 hours ago, Youtch said:

So you have both? Are you running both at the same time?

 

How do they compare one to another?

 

What i like about buttkicker is that I will set it up once for all.

 

The localization of vibration with jetpad is really a game changer in terms of experience or it is only a nice to have?

 

Yes, I am running both off @Andre's Simshaker software.  (In the screenshot below - you can see how I am using them at different levels, but together).  As you state, the Jetpad is able to give you different motors for different "items occurring" while the Buttkicker gives a more uniform feeling, but more powerfully than the Jetpad (which is also why the Jetpad is much quieter).  If pressed, I would say that that 2 Buttkickers WITH Simshaker is the real game changer, because I have one under my controls too, so I am feeling the aircraft in my hands, legs & feet as well as my body.

 

Here is what I posted in another thread regarding my Jetpad + 2 Buttkicker setup:

My Buttkickers are both just running on a USB soundcard.  The one under the chair just adds a little more vibration to augment the Jetseat (and I have some different Simsharker effects set also between those - Like G-Forces is only on the Jetseat so I feel that only in my back vs. full vibration everywhere, which helps me differential high Gs from a stall) and the other Buttkicker is under my control stand (which gives some good feedback in my rudder pedals, throttle & joystick). 

 

Below is how I have them configured in Simshaker.  You can see that G-Force is the biggest difference as described above.  Also there is a separate setting where you can determine when you want the G-Force to register - I have mine set to start at 3Gs, from there the higher Gs ramp up the vibration (I am only feeling those against my back in the Jetpad):

 

[paul_leonard]

Varibraun:  Thank you thank you thank you.  I've been looking for this post for ages but couldn't re-find it. 

 

Here is where we can all go over the top.  I use both a Buttkicker and a Realteus (Jetseat equivalent) AND I split the Buttkicker signal to the Buttkciker amplifier and a cheap cheap amplifier (a zillion on Amazon... any will do) and run that to 4 Dayton shakers (DAYTON AUDIO TT25-8 PUCK TACTILE TRANSDUCER MINI BASS SHAKER 8 OHM) (I forget why I got 8Ohm versus 16Ohm) ($25CAD each) (2 - 1 on either side of my rudder pedals) and one each to my throttle and joystick mounts.  Everything shakes.  If you do this you have to set up the Buttkicker first then the JetSeat as the software seems to choke doing it the other way around.

 

I would recommend the JetSeat before the Buttkicker.  The JetSeat is not much more than the Buttkicker.  The software/JetSeat does provide a more sophisticated experience.  For example, if you are in a hard turn and about to stall, you'll feel it in one cheek or the other.  This really does help you manage to fly/fight better.  Maybe it just makes me feel better.  I digress.  I any event, JetSeat/Simshaker Wings is my vote.  

[Youtch]

There is a crystal clear vote for Simshaker as next investment!

 

Thank you all.

 

I will probably start with jetseat or jetpad then, if it improves my flying skills!

15 hours ago, dburne said:

My buttkicker has so far lasted me over 15 years.

(Happens to be My Wife)

On the same line, my wife when presented with the project, responded favorably, looking for jetpad as a nice massage chair.

 

?

[Andre]

Hi guys,

talking about the Reverb G2 helmet there may be a problem, since it features an open type headphones. I didn't have a chance to try this helmet myself, but if it really lets the user to hear outside sounds well, JetPad actuators "rumbling" may become an issue.

[shirazjohn]

1 hour ago, Andre said:

Hi guys,

talking about the Reverb G2 helmet there may be a problem, since it features an open type headphones. I didn't have a chance to try this helmet myself, but if it really lets the user to hear outside sounds well, JetPad actuators "rumbling" may become an issue.

Hi Andre I have the G2 and i keep the sound level fairly low as i have a problem with tinnitus but i don't hear the Jetpad actuators at all while playing.

[TheSNAFU]

I use the Buttkicker with my G2 and never hear it while playing. If the game sound was very low you’d probably hear it a bit. 

[chiliwili69]

On 2/3/2022 at 9:22 PM, Youtch said:

What would you recommend as next investment for VR: Simshaker/JetPad or nice Throttle?

 

Although I am pleased with the JetPad (look here), I would definetely would go first for a good joystick, throttle and pedals.

On 2/3/2022 at 10:50 PM, Youtch said:

I live in Europe-Spain

 

Is there any other Spain out of Europe?  ?

On 2/4/2022 at 11:05 AM, shirazjohn said:

you can feel the shudders when you are about to enter a stall

 

Indeed, this is one of the most real vibrations you can feel. Remember when flying gliders and entering in stall

On 2/4/2022 at 11:54 AM, Youtch said:

What about durability, what is the lifespan to expect from those vibrating motors?

 

1.5 years with not proplems so far. Let´s see how much it last. But I don´t fly too frequently, just 2-3 sessions of 2-3 hours per month. IL-2 is my only PC game.

2 hours ago, Andre said:

JetPad actuators "rumbling" may become an issue

 

I have the Index that have a similar open over ear headphones. I can hear the vibration when it is vibration hard, but in real life you can also hear the vibration of the plane when you enter in stall or a bullet hit you.  ? 

[Youtch]

1 hour ago, chiliwili69 said:

Although I am pleased with the JetPad (look here), I would definetely would go first for a good joystick, throttle and pedals.

I already have nice VKB pedals and joystick. Just missing the throtlle, hence the initial question.

[Varibraun]

4 hours ago, Andre said:

Hi guys,

talking about the Reverb G2 helmet there may be a problem, since it features an open type headphones. I didn't have a chance to try this helmet myself, but if it really lets the user to hear outside sounds well, JetPad actuators "rumbling" may become an issue.

 

I agree with everyone above - never noticed any distraction from the actuators when in the G2.  Thanks again Andre! 

[WIS-Redcoat]

Buttkicker all the way.  It’s amazing

[Youtch]

Perspective to get jetpad and simshaker software from Andre are now not looking good as Paypal shut down services in Russia.

[=420=Syphen]

Go for a homemade setup. It's pretty darn easy to throw together yourself and much cheaper then jetpad.

I used 3 bass transducers in a left/right stereo setup and a cheap Lepy amp. 

 

The software is key however.

[Youtch]

This looks amazing, what are the components you used?

[=420=Syphen]

2 hours ago, Youtch said:

This looks amazing, what are the components you used?

2x Dayton Audio TT25-8

1x Dayton Audio BST-1

1x Lepy 2020A amplifier

Some speaker cord.. and short 3/4 and 1/2" screws I believe. 

[Youtch]

If I may what was the overall cost?

[Panzerlang]

37 minutes ago, =420=Syphen said:

2x Dayton Audio TT25-8

1x Dayton Audio BST-1

1x Lepy 2020A amplifier

Some speaker cord.. and short 3/4 and 1/2" screws I believe. 

How are you running three transducers from that, out of curiosity? It's a 2-channel jobby.