A dolphin mystery

[No.23_Starling]

Soooo. According to the lore (books) the Dolphin was renowned for strong high alt performance, with French squadrons even asking for it over the Spad XIII. My question is: why???

 

It has the HS engine from several other planes so no compression or alt throttle advantage there. What could it do better than Fokkers up high in 1918? Were they only talking about its performance intercepting 2 seaters.

 

Even when the wings get fixed in FC for her, I’m still not sure where she would excel.

[zan64]

i'm guessing maybe weight? just compared them and the dolphin weighs nearly half as much as the Spad XIII. also compared the Spad XIII has less wing area which maybe also makes at difference up high with the type of flying being done?

[Hellequin13]

It might have to do with the wing configuration. The SPAD's unstaggered wings are one of the least efficient design as far as lift generation, with the lower wing at 2/3rd the lift of the upper wing. I have yet to calculate how the negative stagger of the Dolphin affects the lower wings lift, but suspect that it might be much closer to equal lift levels between upper and lower wings.

 

At altitude, having a more efficient wing layout would be beneficial to maneuverability/stability, as well as climb rate. But then again, the SPAD does have a slightly higher service ceiling, so not sure.

[No.23_Starling]

Has anyone tried dogfighting with her in FC vs Albis and Fokkers up high? How does she fly?

 

She feels like a slower and slightly better turning SE5a below 3km in the FC sorties I’ve had.

[=IRFC=Gascan]

I sometimes take the Dolphin if I need to climb faster than the SE5a. Intercepting recon flights or catching up to escort a recon flight. If I take off at the same time as the recon, I prefer the SE5a, but if I'm late to the game, I'll sometimes pick the Dolphin and sometimes a SPAD, depending on availability and how much pain I feel like putting up with. I haven't had too many fights up high, though. Its usually right about the base of the clouds or just a bit below that I get into a fight. Here's one from a few weeks ago with the side wing guns for extra firepower.

 

 

[US41_Winslow]

16 hours ago, US93_Rummell said:

According to the lore (books) the Dolphin was renowned for strong high alt performance, with French squadrons even asking for it over the Spad XIII. My question is: why?

My understanding was that the Dolphin was designed primarily as an interceptor to catch two-seaters that other types couldn't get.  When I flew it this morning, it had a worse climb rate than the Camel up to probably about 10,000 and even after, it wasn't that much better.  However, it did seem about 15 or 20 m.p.h. faster at 20,000.  The French ordered the Dolphin II which had a 300 h.p. engine, so it would have probably had noticeably better performance than our Dolphin.

 

16 hours ago, US93_Rummell said:

It has the HS engine from several other planes so no compression or alt throttle advantage there. What could it do better than Fokkers up high in 1918? Were they only talking about its performance intercepting 2 seaters.

I think it might have been better than Albatrosses, Tripes and Pfalzes up high but the Fokker was definitely the better airplane. 

[US103_Baer]

17 hours ago, zan64 said:

i'm guessing maybe weight? just compared them and the dolphin weighs nearly half as much as the Spad XIII. also compared the Spad XIII has less wing area which maybe also makes at difference up high with the type of flying being done?

 

Why do people think the SPADs were heavy? They were small, fairly light and had some of the best power/weight of the war. They had excellent climb, dive and speed.
See below for power loading comparisons in the last column. Its measured in pounds per horsepower, so lower is better.

@US93_Rummell

Following is from NACA/NASA's excellent Quest for Performance: The Evolution of Modern Aircraft (chapter 2)

[38] According to the data given in table I, the Dolphin was a large, heavy fighter with a gross weight of 1911 pounds and a wing area of 263 square feet. The maximum speed was a very credible 128 miles per hour at 10 000 feet but was somewhat less that that of the SPAD. The climb results in figure 2.18 show a performance improvement of the Dolphin at the higher altitudes, as compared with the Camel, but the Dolphin was inferior at all altitudes to the SPAD XIII and the Fokker D-VII. Most references to the Dolphin allude to its excellent high-altitude capability, but the results shown do not support this contention. Data in reference 31, however, show a much improved climb capability when later versions of the aircraft were equipped with a more powerful 300-horsepower engine. The flying qualities of the aircraft apparently had no treacherous tendencies but were characterized by fairly heavy control forces and relatively slow response

 

 

You can see from Table 1 below that the Wing Loading of the Dolphin is pretty low (col 8 ). As it doesn't have any other redeeming altitude feature like thick airfoil or high compression engine (until the 300hp?) then I assume its simply that big wing area helping it up high.

(note: Its historic US data, so pounds, feet, pounds-per-sq-ft, pounds-per-hp )

 

Crop of table 1

Edited November 17, 2021 by US28_Baer

[JGr2/J5_Klugermann]

I hope more people fly the Dolphin.

[Diggun]

I want to love the Dolphin so much - I own a bit of one - but I just can't get on board with her in sim.

 

I'm probably too excited about the upcoming Sopwith Triplane, though...

[=IRFC=kotori87]

I remember hearing something about how the Dolphin's carburetor handled altitude better than other planes at the time, but I don't remember where I heard it or how it worked.

In-game, the Dolphin does out-climb the SE5a. During Operation Michael I was able to get the Dolphin up to 18,000 feet, while other pilots in my sector in SE5a's were only able to reach about 15,000 feet. It handled better at altitude, too. Of course, I randomly fell into a spin while diving on the German recon formation, all my controls locked up the moment a single bullet flew in my general direction, and then the wings fell off, but oh well. That's Flying Circus for you. Any consumer expectation of in-game performance matching history is unreasonable and liable to get your thread locked. At least I was able to get above the German formation without turning French.

[Avimimus]

On 11/16/2021 at 9:29 AM, US93_Rummell said:

Has anyone tried dogfighting with her in FC vs Albis and Fokkers up high? How does she fly?

 

In flat circular spinning motions.

[=IRFC=kotori87]

2 hours ago, Avimimus said:

 

In flat circular spinning motions.

This. Unless you have a decent energy advantage, you'll only get one firing pass. Attempting to dogfight in the Dolphin requires burning altitude like crazy to avoid spinning, so you don't have much time before you're below your opponent and have to disengage. I've only been successful with it when I have teammates around to help out, or when doing specific missions like ground attack or recon intercept.

[ST_Catchov]

6 hours ago, kotori87 said:

In-game, the Dolphin does everything out-climbs the SE5a

 

Corrected.

[vangel]

Am I the only one who thinks that the Dolphin looses her wings way to easy? I can't imagine in reality anyone would approve such a death-trap for combat duty. One of the late war fighter and the designers forget all they speed learned during the last 4 years of war and deliver... crap.

[US103_Baer]

27 minutes ago, vangel said:

Am I the only one who thinks that the Dolphin looses her wings way to easy? I can't imagine in reality anyone would approve such a death-trap for combat duty. One of the late war fighter and the designers forget all they speed learned during the last 4 years of war and deliver... crap.

I believe it might have been mentioned once or twice, and not just the Dolphin. 

Seriously though,  Search 'DM' and be prepared to spend a couple of months catching up. Devs have said they'll investigate when time permits.

Subject is off-topic here and will quickly lead to an interesting thread getting closed. So humbly suggest not continuing it.

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by US28_Baer

[Chill31]

On 11/17/2021 at 1:48 AM, US28_Baer said:

 

Why do people think the SPADs were heavy? They were small, fairly light and had some of the best power/weight of the war. They had excellent climb, dive and speed.
See below for power loading comparisons in the last column. Its measured in pounds per horsepower, so lower is better.

@US93_Rummell

 

 

 

You can see from Table 1 below that the Wing Loading of the Dolphin is pretty low (col 8 ). As it doesn't have any other redeeming altitude feature like thick airfoil or high compression engine (until the 300hp?) then I assume its simply that big wing area helping it up high.

(note: Its historic US data, so pounds, feet, pounds-per-sq-ft, pounds-per-hp )

 

Crop of table 1

Haven't checked the data for others, but the wing area and horsepower are wrong for the Dr.I. 

 

221 Sq ft and 120 hp

[US103_Baer]

7 hours ago, Chill31 said:

Haven't checked the data for others, but the wing area and horsepower are wrong for the Dr.I. 

 

221 Sq ft and 120 hp

Well you'd know on the wing area. 

I assume they're using nominal hp for a typical installation.  Hence 220hp for Spad and 185 for the BMW D7. Even though they produce higher.

[Dakpilot]

They didn't hide things too well.. What with the few 20 plus page threads about the subject ?

 

Drama llama 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

[Chill31]

On 11/20/2021 at 7:08 AM, US28_Baer said:

Well you'd know on the wing area. 

I assume they're using nominal hp for a typical installation.  Hence 220hp for Spad and 185 for the BMW D7. Even though they produce higher.

120 is the nominal hp for the "110" Rhone 9jb as well as the Oberursel UR2.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

FM changes want happen imho. Weak wings of Dolphin should be fixed in some future,  but we need more tracks imho.  We need bombard devs with those occurrences of wings fall off. 

[MisterSmith]

This topic has veered into Dev bashing. I cleaned it up a bit and issued a ban. You can discuss FM/DM in the correct areas of the forum and keep it respectful. Additional, unfounded claims of dishonesty or bias, particularly as the topic has been addressed directly by the Dev's in the past, will result in the topic getting locked.

 

Smith

[Chief_Mouser]

Joined September 4.

 

Five posts.

 

1. Please reload any appropriately redacted photos that currently violate rule 7. I have deleted the photos which were in violation. Repeat offenses will result in bans, particularly for known repeat offenders. Smith

 

2. Thread is over three years old at this point. Locked.

 

3. Moved to History. Doesn't belong in Great Battles/General but I'll let it stand in the History section. Redirect from General to here will remain active for 30 days.

 

4. Welther, I see the underlying info you wanted to express but you came in hot for a new post. This one went off the rails quickly by both the OP and others. Keep it civil - that is an order.

 

5. This topic has veered into Dev bashing. I cleaned it up a bit and issued a ban. You can discuss FM/DM in the correct areas of the forum and keep it respectful. Additional, unfounded claims of dishonesty or bias, particularly as the topic has been addressed directly by the Dev's in the past, will result in the topic getting locked. Smith

 

 

?

[MisterSmith]

32 minutes ago, 216th_Cat said:

Joined September 4.

 

Five posts.

 

1. Please reload any appropriately redacted photos that currently violate rule 7. I have deleted the photos which were in violation. Repeat offenses will result in bans, particularly for known repeat offenders. Smith

 

2. Thread is over three years old at this point. Locked.

 

3. Moved to History. Doesn't belong in Great Battles/General but I'll let it stand in the History section. Redirect from General to here will remain active for 30 days.

 

4. Welther, I see the underlying info you wanted to express but you came in hot for a new post. This one went off the rails quickly by both the OP and others. Keep it civil - that is an order.

 

5. This topic has veered into Dev bashing. I cleaned it up a bit and issued a ban. You can discuss FM/DM in the correct areas of the forum and keep it respectful. Additional, unfounded claims of dishonesty or bias, particularly as the topic has been addressed directly by the Dev's in the past, will result in the topic getting locked. Smith

 

 

?

 

I've been involved in other capacities since EA. People want to know why things happen and I prefer to explain myself to avoid confusion or mis-interpretation. There is a rules section for reference and clarity.

 

I've fielded about seventy topics since moving to a Moderating position and issued three bans in that time. Most items/complaints/minor violations are handled with a thicker skin and no significant action taken. I prefer to avoid being the ban-hammer as much as possible but sometimes it is warranted.

 

I'd be happy to field any further questions on methodology via PM in accordance with the above mentioned rules.

 

Smith

[Chief_Mouser]

I was just wondering who you are. Or who you were before? Moderators are mostly long-time and well-respected members of the community but here you are, just two months since joining and posting about nothing except your moderating. Are you a professional moderator rather than a flight simmer? Hardly necessary with the bunch of pussycats we have here.

Oh, and the name and avatar? 'Mr Smith' and the shades? The hard-man look? Then you should have used this picture: 

 

[Guest deleted@83466]

Just out of curiosity, which one of the 26 forum rules concerns the use of so-called “sockpuppet” IDs?

 

Quote

Oh, and the name and avatar? 'Mr Smith' and the shades? The hard-man look? Then you should have used this picture:

That isn’t the hard-man look.  That’s the soul man look.

Edited November 28, 2021 by SeaSerpent

[Cynic_Al]

On 11/19/2021 at 4:34 AM, Avimimus said:

 

In flat circular spinning motions.

 

Screenshot showing the attitude of an FC Dolphin in a spin.  What is 'flat' about that?

 

 

[Zooropa_Fly]

Do as thou...

 

S!