Limited pilot hands

[=WH=PangolinWranglin]

Back around or before the announcement of BoBP, there was an idea put forward by a dev about somehow limiting the pilot to operating the aircraft with 2 hands. This would remove the ability to move several controls at once, such as opening radiators, changing trim, and moving the throttle, all while flying the aircraft. For obvious reasons this can't be done well IRL due to the fact that most pilots don't have 4 or 5 hands. Did anything ever come of this idea, or was it shelved and possibly forgotten?

[Dano]

Anthropomorphic controls I think it was called, it was a feature in IL2 Cliffs of Dover and I, for one turned it off immediately due to minor fluctuations in trim sliders/wheels from performing basic tasks such as using elevator and aileron controls. It sounded like a great idea but it's implementation was flawed, I've no idea if it was ever adjusted.

[Superflyer]

If it is implemented well in the sim, it would be great!   

Edited November 2, 2021 by Superflyer

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, Superflyer said:

If it is implemented well in the sim, it would be great!   

 

Lol no, it would not. It is/was a feature widely hated and thus little used by CLoD players. Put another way, it was a solution in search of a problem.

[Yogiflight]

I doubt that it will come. Too many MP jockeys, who exactly for this exploitation reason bought a HOTAS Joystick would be extremely pissed.

[LukeFF]

1 minute ago, Yogiflight said:

I doubt that it will come. Too many MP jockeys, who exactly for this exploitation reason bought a HOTAS Joystick would be extremely pissed.

 

That, and it's just a bad idea all around. We aren't sitting in real cockpit layouts, and even the best of controllers emit a small amount of movement in their axes when not being moved. I know it's a feature I'd never use. 

[Jaws2002]

Been done in CLOD and it was not fun at all. You take a Ju-88 half way across the map to the target, trim everything, setup the bomb sight, and when you press the bomb release button nothing happens, because one of the axis on your controllers had a small spike and the game won't let you use another control.

 

We have an infinite variety of controllers, all with their own quirks. It can't be done.

33 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

Too many MP jockeys, who exactly for this exploitation reason bought a HOTAS Joystick would be extremely pissed.

 

It's not about exploits. It's just not doable in a game, because we  don't all use the same controllers and even if we did. things happen. Even pilots accidentally touch controls they didn't intend to. 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Jaws2002

[AndyJWest]

3 minutes ago, Barnacles said:

We put a man on the moon. I think it would be possible to have some sort of noise filter in a computer game. 

 

A noise filter would be doable. What isn't even theoretically possible is to create a noise filter that always correctly distinguishes between noise and intentional input. And any filter is liable to introduce lag into the system.

 

As has already been noted, anthropomorphic controls were implemented in CloD. I don't recall reading praise for the idea from anyone who actually used them. 

[Bremspropeller]

Please don't go down the "it's realistic, because it's hard"-rabbit hole.

[357th_KW]

Alternatively, you could just identify the primary abuse mode (throttle, trim, flaps all at the same time while under heavy G and with your head turned around backwards) and take a step to limit that (maybe just delay the output of the inputs in sequence or something along those lines.

 

Just to add one more point here, just enforcing flap speed limits on everything similar to how they are on the 51/38 (slight exceedance = jammed) would eliminate a lot of the aggressive flap nonsense.

Edited November 2, 2021 by VBF-12_KW

[AEthelraedUnraed]

50 minutes ago, Barnacles said:

We put a man on the moon. I think it would be possible to have some sort of noise filter in a computer game. 

 

Not that I'm desperate to have this feature in game but to cite one example of a poor implementation in an unfinished game to dismiss any discussion is a bit of a fallacy. 

It's funny you accuse others of using fallacies while at the same talking about the moon landings. It's a completely different thing and not even remotely related to digital filtering.

 

As AndyJWest already stated, a perfect filter doesn't exist. A linear filter will generally only reduce the noise, not eliminate it, and always at the cost of a certain lag. You might get slightly better results by introducing a nonlinearity into your filter, but this will generally also introduce more erratic behaviour and won't solve the lag problem.

 

Rest assured that most joysticks/drivers already have noise filtering, carefully designed to give a good tradeoff between accuracy and lag. You can improve one of these measures, but that always goes at the cost of the other.

[sevenless]

Waste of development ressources it would be.

[Jaws2002]

56 minutes ago, VBF-12_KW said:

Alternatively, you could just identify the primary abuse mode (throttle, trim, flaps all at the same time while under heavy G and with your head turned around backwards) and take a step to limit that (maybe just delay the output of the inputs in sequence or something along those lines.

 

Just to add one more point here, just enforcing flap speed limits on everything similar to how they are on the 51/38 (slight exceedance = jammed) would eliminate a lot of the aggressive flap nonsense.

 

 

 

 

Do you realize many aircraft in game have flaps deployment limit already?

Edited November 2, 2021 by Jaws2002

[357th_KW]

21 minutes ago, Jaws2002 said:

 

 

 

 

Do you realize many aircraft in game have flaps deployment limit already?

Do you realize how many aircraft can wildly exceed those “limits” with no consequences?

[Jaws2002]

21 minutes ago, VBF-12_KW said:

Do you realize how many aircraft can wildly exceed those “limits” with no consequences?

That has nothing to do with the feature discussed here. The developers try to model every aircraft, to the best of their ability, based on available information, budget and other factors. If a plane exceeds those limits, it doesn't mean we have to implement some arbitrary limits to all aircraft, to satisfy your fetish.

 If a plane doesn't match it's historical limits, go do some testing, some research and then make a bug report. IF they have time and can afford it they'll fix it.

Trying to implement a new bogus feature to "fix" a different problem doesn't fix anything.

 

I did play CLOD hundreds of hours with that "feature" and I blew a lot of bomb runs and landings because of that nonsense.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Jaws2002

[=WH=PangolinWranglin]

Wow you are an angry bunch lol. I really don't care if it's a good or bad idea I just wanted an answer on if anything ever came of it. ?

[Jaws2002]

Just now, =WH=PangolinWranglin said:

Wow you are an angry bunch lol. I really don't care if it's a good or bad idea I just wanted an answer on if anything ever came of it. ?

?

 

Sorry if it looks that way. The feature sounds interesting but it's impossible to properly implement. Many of us already experienced it in Cliffs of dover and it cause a lot more problems than it fixed.

 First, we are not actually flying real aircraft, we play a game, in our spare time, with what we have. We can't all haver identical hardware. Even if we did, We have multiple types of aircraft in game and they all have very different ergonomics. It's hard to find all the specs for all of them and then implement them in game.

 In the end we are all different, we don't all have the same physical limits. 

[40plus]

I've read a lot of crazy suggestions over the years but this one takes the cake?

Why on earth would anyone want this?

[[CPT]Crunch]

If I flip a switch, crank a lever, or turn a rotary, I want the plane to precisely match my controller as much as possible.  I've never and will never have any fear of any virtual pilot that goes to those levels of panic and desperation, the only thing its going to do for them is give me a really good laugh.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

30 minutes ago, Barnacles said:

Ah the fallacy fallacy. Good one.

...

 

fallacy (plural fallacies)

1. (logic) An argument, or apparent argument, which professes to be decisive of the matter at issue, while in reality it is not. A specious argument.

I'm not sure how this relates to me. Yes, I accuse you of using a fallacy. But no, I do not use that as an argument for anything except refuting your fallacious moonlandings argument. Therefore, it doesn't "profess to be decisive of the matter at issue [i.e. filters are not a good solution]" and hence it's not a fallacy. My actual argument why filters are not a sufficiently good solution is in the following sentences, and in no way relates to you using a fallacy.

 

Your statement however, is most certainly a fallacy. Unless you can explain to me how landing on the moon relates to digital filtering on HOTAS inputs.

 

30 minutes ago, Barnacles said:

I take it you don't use a head tracker then

I don't. I use VR. Where proper filtering is even more important because any unwanted movement or delays can cause motion sickness.

 

Are there any actual arguments you're gonna use? I hope you do have extensive knowledge of the mathematics behind filtering, as well as experience with digital filter design? Mind you, I do.

Edited November 2, 2021 by AEthelraedUnraed

[Yogiflight]

18 hours ago, AndyJWest said:

And any filter is liable to introduce lag into the system.

It would be enough to filter the noise of the throttle, which shouldn't be too much of an issue. The stick and rudder get moved while pressing a button or moving a lever, anyway. Additionally you would still have to be able to shoot, drop bombs or firing rockets, while moving the stick, rudder and throttle. So the stick and the rudder pedals have nothing to do with this issue.

[Robli]

1 hour ago, Yogiflight said:

It would be enough to filter the noise of the throttle, which shouldn't be too much of an issue. The stick and rudder get moved while pressing a button or moving a lever, anyway. Additionally you would still have to be able to shoot, drop bombs or firing rockets, while moving the stick, rudder and throttle. So the stick and the rudder pedals have nothing to do with this issue.

 

You would need to filter the noise of every possible axis that is mapped to controls of that plane, besides the ones that you control with your feet, like rudder and toe brakes. If your trim wheel sent out noise then game would think that you are actively using trim, so it means you could not use throttle at the same time etc. When I started with CloD, which had that anthropomorphic setting on by default, at least on my install, then I remember that in the beginning I was puzzled a few times that what did I do wrong while piloting the plane, so that it's controls were locked and I ended up crashing despite all my efforts - until I found out from some forum that this anthropomorphic tick was causing the problem, like for lots of other people. 

 

It could of course be possible to design the anthropomorphic approach in a better way, but at the end, even if done in a better way, it could end up being a bigger source of frustration compared to what it brings to game. Different planes have different cockpit layouts for real anyway, in addition to players having different HOTAS setups, so would not be possible to make these anthropomorphically correct for them all, anyway. If somebody wants to roleplay it properly, he can do that already now. So, while the idea might sound like a great one at first, I would rather have the devs spend time and energy on something that brings something more valuable to the game, be it fuel handling or radio navigation or other things like that.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Robli

[Sunde]

21 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

I doubt that it will come. Too many MP jockeys, who exactly for this exploitation reason bought a HOTAS Joystick would be extremely pissed.

Jesus lol

[O_DesoLunatic]

22 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

I doubt that it will come. Too many MP jockeys, who exactly for this exploitation reason bought a HOTAS Joystick would be extremely pissed.

Well I highly doubt it would be the primary reason, more likely devs appreciate the fact that flight sims are games after all and games are meant to be playable.

[GOA_Karaya_VR]

If this feature will be released, too many folks of multiplayer will be mad ? ( many people have propeller pitch mapped with the throttle in the same axis , they throw flaps while been pulling up the stick and also cutting power and propeller, lol, many many scenarios, ( i heard that even some folks map the elevator trim with the stick on Bf 109s ). By the way, for a ultra-extreme realistic servers as TAW, should be cool.

Edited November 3, 2021 by GOA_FirebirdCRI_VR

[[F.Circus]FrangibleCover]

As a counterpoint: I'm using an 'unrealistic' HOTAS stick, although hardly an expensive one. It lets me adjust prop pitch and aircraft pitch and throttle and flap deployment all at the same time, certainly, but these things also take much longer to adjust than they would in an actual aircraft. On most real fighters of WW2, if you wanted max pitch, max throttle, max mixture you grabbed all three of the levers to your left and slammed them onto the forward stops. I have to slam the throttle open and then hold the button to increase my pitch, watching techchat or my own crotch to see if I'm fully forward, and then hold the other button for mixture until it's fully forward. I bet you a qualified pilot in an actual cockpit could match or exceed the speed and accuracy of my control inputs in the sim.

[Avimimus]

On 11/2/2021 at 10:18 AM, =WH=PangolinWranglin said:

Back around or before the announcement of BoBP, there was an idea put forward by a dev about somehow limiting the pilot to operating the aircraft with 2 hands. This would remove the ability to move several controls at once, such as opening radiators, changing trim, and moving the throttle, all while flying the aircraft. For obvious reasons this can't be done well IRL due to the fact that most pilots don't have 4 or 5 hands. Did anything ever come of this idea, or was it shelved and possibly forgotten?

 

This was called Anthropomorphic controls in Cliffs of Dover... I personally liked it. A lot of people apparently didn't.

 

We do need something similar (for realism) in Flying circus though:

- Airspeed limits for quickly reloading Lewis guns (in real life pilots would often  slow down before attempting a reload - because the airflow would keep the gun from being swung back into position - and/or would cause the new ammunition tray to be blown out of the pilot's hands)

- Some kind of gee limits for clearing stoppages (one has to take an arm off the stick to do so - which means one can't apply the same control forces).

 

Ideally they'd also do the same for gunners in exposed cockpits (and split the controls so the gimbal and the turret ring/bar are controlled separately)!

[40plus]

Am I the only one who holds the stick between his knees when he needs to use both hands for something else? Hell, I've nudged the throttle with my elbow while holding the stick with my knees and working other controls.

Edited November 3, 2021 by 40plus

[Irishratticus72]

6 minutes ago, 40plus said:

Am I the only one whop holds the stick between his knees when he needs to use both hands for something else? Hell, I've nudged the throttle with my elbow while holding the stick with my knees and working other controls.

I also have used bodily appendages to move axes. Not my elbow though. 

[357th_KW]

On 11/2/2021 at 8:56 AM, Yogiflight said:

I doubt that it will come. Too many MP jockeys, who exactly for this exploitation reason bought a HOTAS Joystick would be extremely pissed.

 

Amusingly, many of those advocating for it in this thread are primarily MP pilots.

[AndyJWest]

2 minutes ago, VBF-12_KW said:

 

Amusingly, many of those advocating for it in this thread are primarily MP pilots.

 

I'd guess that most of the people advocating it are. Fly single player, and you can decide for yourself what is or isn't realistic. And not do it, if you don't, and care. It's usually the multiplayer crowd that insist on enforcing their personal opinions regarding 'realism'.

[Yogiflight]

3 hours ago, Avimimus said:

- Airspeed limits for quickly reloading Lewis guns (in real life pilots would often  slow down before attempting a reload - because the airflow would keep the gun from being swung back into position - and/or would cause the new ammunition tray to be blown out of the pilot's hands)

This reminds me of the Bf 110 E2 gunner, who shoots with his rear machinegun, while he is reloading the 20mm guns.

 

1 hour ago, VBF-12_KW said:

 

Amusingly, many of those advocating for it in this thread are primarily MP pilots.

Maybe because not every MP player is one of those Super Hartmanns, who only care for their kills status.

Luckily I, as a pure SP player can, like @AndyJWestsuggested, fly the way I want. So just a theoretical discussion for me, anyway. But as a friend of the simulation aspect of a flightsim (as well as I would like a real tanksim), I like the idea behind it.

[Raven109]

It's probably not that bad when it comes to people gaming the game. Sure, some will optimise they're setup to get an advantage - and this is valid for everything, from screen size (spotting on a 50" display anyone?), graphical settings, joystick quality etc, to their button setup. But then again many have HOTAS peripherals, so it's only natural to map stuff to them, I mean you paid for these buttons after all. You might be playing in the evenings. Pretty hard to reach for your keyboard, when you don't even see what you're reaching for, especially during combat.

 

This idea of equality and fair competition on a public server is an illusion. This is why for game tournaments they bring the players together in the same room, and even then they still find a way to game the game, especially when the stakes are high.

 

LE: you can still game the game even if you have anthropomorphic controls. Let's say you mapped your flaps to a button on your throttle handle, say you're in a 109. Anthropomorphic controls are active and the perfect filter is implemented in the sim, so no issues with spiking, delays etc. I can press the flaps button for a 0.5s, then push the throttle for 0.5s, rinse and repeat. I'm not advancing both of them at the same time, but I'm still overall advancing them faster than a real 109 pilot could and with less effort. So, then the devs program a cooldown period, to simulate the time it takes for a real world pilot to move his hand from the flaps wheel to the throttle. This creates all kinds of user experience issues (and this was one of the issues in CloD). You move your controller but nothing happens in the virtual world, because you're still in the cooldown period and there is no feedback for this. Moving a controller and not getting the expected results from the airplane leads to breaking immersion... 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Raven109

[Sunde]

15 hours ago, VBF-12_KW said:

 

Amusingly, many of those advocating for it in this thread are primarily MP pilots.

My mind has been made up
And trust me its a great idea
AS many of you evidently speak for the entire SP community, and the fact that SP and MP are too completely different entities (MP being elitist and total control freaks with crazy abusive control setups)

Force anthropomorphic controls into ALL SP content, as a test.
Once its established that this was indeed a great idea, roll it out to MP too
 

[CountZero]

if they add something like this they would be floded by bug reports from people who dont know why their comands dont work, it would be mess of epic proportions.

[[CPT]Crunch]

There's a point where the push for reality hits a brick wall, this is a simulation, and it always will be.  Want reality and anthropomorphic controls, join the academy, or buy one.  I'm happiest with direct control over my PC peripherals and prefer it that way.

[Irishratticus72]

6 minutes ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

There's a point where the push for reality hits a brick wall, this is a simulation, and it always will be.  Want reality and anthropomorphic controls, join the academy, or buy one.  I'm happiest with direct control over my PC peripherals and prefer it that way.

I'd be happy to play the way the majority of users want, as long as they are paying for it. If not, hell, I'll do what I want. For the record, I usually play naked, to recreate the conditions my great grandfather experienced during his time in the RAF in North Africa. His squadron was based on fire Island. ?

Edited November 4, 2021 by Irishratticus72