AAA mod

[Picchio]

Just now, Stonehouse said:

No, I haven't. It likely is very mission specific too anyway in that some missions would have few AAA even on hardest setting while others might be chock full. That would be one of the reasons for making it an optional mod for people to use at their discretion. There are hundreds of files involved so too many to make different flavours of activation range.

 

Makes sense. I doubt it was taken into consideration when the career missions' templates were built anyway. Thanks!

[Stonehouse]

Updated version of the EMG AAA attack range mod in the first post. Fixed some errors I'd made and altered the Allied flak compositions to be about a half troop of HAA and LAA. IE both sides flak emplacements roughly equivalent in size now. If I end up altering any theatre templates so flak is closer to historical density at objectives, I'll make them available.

 

From a balance point of view I may end up altering the German HAA half battery to have 3 heavy AA guns instead of 2 in the generic template (German heavy AAA started out with 4 guns per battery and later in the war changed to 6 so it is historically correct to do this but I was concerned that it might be too much) as I'm seeing that Allied flak is quite a bit more deadly due to the Bofors out ranging the German light AAA by about 2000m. Adding an additional heavy AA gun to the German half battery template would probably even things out. I will do some more testing and see how it goes.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Stonehouse

[Stonehouse]

No changes post 5.103 that I've been able to discover.

[JG4_Moltke1871]

Hi @Stonehouse, In some WW1 missions I have losses by Bofors L60 AAA. I have acticated your AAAmod and the AQMB_QMB and career AAA attack range Mod.

Is it possible this WW2 AAA is generated by your MOD's or maybe its a problem in the main game?

[Stonehouse]

5 hours ago, JG4_Moltke1871 said:

Hi @Stonehouse, In some WW1 missions I have losses by Bofors L60 AAA. I have acticated your AAAmod and the AQMB_QMB and career AAA attack range Mod.

Is it possible this WW2 AAA is generated by your MOD's or maybe its a problem in the main game?

OK strange. If it came from anywhere out of those two mods, it would be the attack range mod. However, I didn't change gun types - only the trigger range for checking whether to activate or deactivate the gun and the radius for the MCU attack area. Perhaps try turning off the attack range mod for a few missions and see it if still occurs and I will also try to check the files at my end as well. If it still occurs, then it would be an issue with the mission construction ie game itself. Best I can see, the game does similar to EMG and in most cases substitutes a gun for a placeholder. I haven't seen the list that maps placeholder to gun so cannot comment but it sounds possible that it could be a game issue. Have you any example missions? Can you advise the map?

[JG4_Moltke1871]

2 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

OK strange. If it came from anywhere out of those two mods, it would be the attack range mod. However, I didn't change gun types - only the trigger range for checking whether to activate or deactivate the gun and the radius for the MCU attack area. Perhaps try turning off the attack range mod for a few missions and see it if still occurs and I will also try to check the files at my end as well. If it still occurs, then it would be an issue with the mission construction ie game itself. Best I can see, the game does similar to EMG and in most cases substitutes a gun for a placeholder. I haven't seen the list that maps placeholder to gun so cannot comment but it sounds possible that it could be a game issue. Have you any example missions? Can you advise the map?

I had it in the new Gotha Mission what comes with the last patch to the Flying Circus missions and in the last mission of the turning tides scripted campaign with the SSW D.IV.

In both cases I saw it on the after mission map. In case of the Gotha mission it seems the Bofors was direct on the route of the Gotha AI squad, I didn’t witnessed that because I chose my own route.

[Stonehouse]

OK I don't own either aircraft or FC vol 2. The mod (as far as I know) will only impact missions built dynamically like AQMB/QMB and career missions. Single missions and scripted campaigns are hand crafted missions that will be the same each playthrough. 

 

I was able to ungtp the gotha mission however and I can see the author has placed (I believe) 4 Bofors L60 gun in the mission. So, a bug I believe.

 

Ditto for the final mission of the scripted campaign but I think just the 1 instance. So, a bug as well.

 

I believe you are fine to continue on using the attack range mod - just repeating though it only affects dynamically built missions as far as I am aware.

 

PS I've reported it so hopefully it will get fixed in a patch soon.

Edited May 21, 2023 by Stonehouse

[JG4_Moltke1871]

13 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

OK I don't own either aircraft or FC vol 2. The mod (as far as I know) will only impact missions built dynamically like AQMB/QMB and career missions. Single missions and scripted campaigns are hand crafted missions that will be the same each playthrough. 

 

I was able to ungtp the gotha mission however and I can see the author has placed (I believe) 4 Bofors L60 gun in the mission. So, a bug I believe.

 

Ditto for the final mission of the scripted campaign but I think just the 1 instance. So, a bug as well.

 

I believe you are fine to continue on using the attack range mod - just repeating though it only affects dynamically built missions as far as I am aware.

 

PS I've reported it so hopefully it will get fixed in a patch soon.

Thanks a lot for your effort ??

 

Edit: Played this mission without your mods, the Bofors still there ?

Edited May 21, 2023 by JG4_Moltke1871

[Stonehouse]

20 hours ago, JG4_Moltke1871 said:

Edit: Played this mission without your mods, the Bofors still there

Yeah, that is what I expected. All these hand-crafted missions will have exactly the units that the person who built the mission decided should be included.

 

So, for some reason or by mistake the person who built the Gotha mission and the last campaign mission decided to add WW2 AA guns instead of WW1 guns. They would need to fix the mission by replacing the incorrect units with ones from the right time frame and then reissue the missions as part of a game patch.

[migmadmarine]

I have not had time to read through the thread, but are you able to effect the prioritization of targeting at all, so that guns fire at bombers and attackers above fighter escorts? Always bothered me that the guns would shoot at the escorting fighters on bomber escort missions. 

[JG4_Moltke1871]

On 4/13/2023 at 10:54 AM, Stonehouse said:

 

On 4/13/2023 at 10:20 AM, JG4_Moltke1871 said:

Thanks @Stonehouse, I will start some FC career missions and report what I have seen later. 

A question about AAA AI target selection. I observe that the heavy AA often targeting the fighter escord, not the bomber formation. Good for me in my bomber, but do you know how tha AI select the target? Did the heavy AA snap automatic on the highest target (for usual the fighter escord above the bomber unit)?

Expand  

No sorry - target selection sits somewhere higher up in the logic chain than where I am working. At the point my changes have an effect the AI has already chosen the target and decided to shoot.

 

@migmadmarine it was already topic ?

[Stonehouse]

5 hours ago, migmadmarine said:

I have not had time to read through the thread, but are you able to effect the prioritization of targeting at all, so that guns fire at bombers and attackers above fighter escorts? Always bothered me that the guns would shoot at the escorting fighters on bomber escort missions. 

As Moltke said, unfortunately I haven't found anything to change that behaviour.  I'd like to have it changed as well. It should be priorisation based on threat to ground units and facilities. 

[Stonehouse]

FYI - I expect that the 5.104 patch has broken - at least partially - the AQMB_QMB and career AAA attack range mod as campaign stuff changed in the patch. I'd probably recommend that you don't use it until I've had time to confirm this expectation and give you the all clear. 

 

I'm pretty flat out with house renovations and other stuff at present so it will take longer than normal for me to check all my published mods and update them. That said I don't expect any issues with the core ones like AI gunnery mods, main AAA mod and EMG attack range mod or wing vortices so I think you are likely ok to try them under the new patch.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Stonehouse

[Stonehouse]

Ok - previous post was incorrect. AI gunnery does require updates. 

[Stonehouse]

Confirmed that the main AAA mod and the EMG AAA attack range mod require no updates. Checking AQMB_QMB and career AAA attack range mod is WIP. Note this mod contains hundreds of files so will take a fair bit of time to confirm/update

Edited June 30, 2023 by Stonehouse

[JG4_Moltke1871]

Just about my experience: I fly two times the new photo recon missions with the Arado 234. Both times I was shot down by AAA. I flew the mission giving altitude of 6500 meters and my IAS was about 650. I was wondering the shots was really accurate from the beginning. In the first mission I used AAA+AAA Career mod and I was shot down in less than a minute. In the second flight I used the vanilla AAA mod only and I survived one path but on the second I was so heavy demaged I was forced to bail out. Both missions I flew on highest difficulty with highest frontline activity (dont know this have influence of AAA numbers).I dont want to judge too early. I just wondering the chance to survive that is so low ? and the high speed seems to be no protection. Maybe you try out yourself or some others tell about their experience ?

[Stonehouse]

So, I'm still checking the AAA career mod is ok for 5.104 and hence it may be broken as you have it, however some general points - the career mod changes the activation range for AAA to 10000 m and deactivation to 11500m and the attack radius to 10000m (compared to stock where it is ~5000/6000m for activation and often either 2000 or 5000 m for attack radius) and as a result AAA will spawn and begin to track targets ~5000m earlier than in stock. So, in terms of your missions that gives the AAA approx 27 secs more time to rotate and track you. For a heavy AAA with a rotation speed of about 9 deg per sec this means it can turn more than 180 degrees. IE even if facing directly away from you it can turn to face you when you are still 5000-6000m away. In stock it would still be trying to rotate to face you as you went past. It cannot fire while rotating or elevating the barrel.

 

In stock AAA the initial bracketing error is lower than the error in the AAA mod so will more likely get close to you in the first shots but due to the lower activation range is often either facing the wrong way and has no time to rotate to target you or simply never spawns. So more likely to get you first shot.

 

However, I've never intended that the mod would allow you to fly a constant speed, altitude and direction within a AAA zone without it making it likely to get hit. I usually vary my altitude by a 100-200 m about the base course altitude. So in your example I'm constantly changing alt between about 6300 and 6700m once I realise I am in a flak area. The increase in activation range with the career mod will likely mean you are more often in a flak area than in stock. 

 

I understand that highest frontline activity = more AAA but I'm not sure what it does to crew skill. I would tend to think it would likely skew the skills to a higher average (ie lower error in aiming) but I don't know that is actually the case.

 

One other point is that flying at 6500m approx above sea level you are likely coming in range of 40mm flak (since you are flying Luftwaffe) as it has a range of 6400m. Bofors guns are quite deadly and are quick to rotate and track. QF37s have a range of 14000m so you are well within accurate range for british heavy flak. M1A1 US heavy flak has a range of 10100m so again you are well within range of US heavy flak.

 

Do you know what sort of flak is getting you?

Unfortunately, as someone has pointed out often flak that misses is behind you and you don't see it - especially in offline single play where there is no-one to yell "Watch out - FLAK". Are you sure that it is the first bursts getting you?

 

Happy to revisit accuracy of WW2 AAA if the consensus is that I need to once all the mods have caught up to 5.104 but you should never expect to be able to keep a constant vector within a flak zone and not be fatally hit. My main original aim was to remove the pretty constant first shot direct hits blowing the aircraft out the sky experienced in stock AAA and make flak something that damaged your aircraft but allowed you a chance to abort your mission and RTB or at least bail out or force land.

 

1 hour ago, JG4_Moltke1871 said:

Just about my experience: I fly two times the new photo recon missions with the Arado 234. Both times I was shot down by AAA. I flew the mission giving altitude of 6500 meters and my IAS was about 650. I was wondering the shots was really accurate from the beginning. In the first mission I used AAA+AAA Career mod and I was shot down in less than a minute. In the second flight I used the vanilla AAA mod only and I survived one path but on the second I was so heavy demaged I was forced to bail out. Both missions I flew on highest difficulty with highest frontline activity (dont know this have influence of AAA numbers).I dont want to judge too early. I just wondering the chance to survive that is so low ? and the high speed seems to be no protection. Maybe you try out yourself or some others tell about their experience ?

 

[JG4_Moltke1871]

Unfortunately I not keep the reason of death/shoot down after the sortie ? All I can say there was a lot of big booms close to my cockpit.

The nature of this new mission type of course have a bit suicidal character because you are forced to keep curse and altitude for quite a long time in an area where the AAA is concentrate so much on airfields and ships there + I am the only target they have to aim !! I will play a bit with the altitude next time, I have to try out it’s possible to finish the task in +6500, maybe somewhere between 8000 to 10000 meters. To be forced fly in higher altitudes is one of the most realistic aspect of your mod in WW 1&2 I hope it will also work with this new mission type ? and I hope the nature of this type don’t collides with it to a mission impossible ?

Give me a bit time to try out, my dummy pilots have no scare mod ?

[JG4_Moltke1871]

My last try: Fly the mission in 9K, again it ends in death. Fly into the target zone with full throttle, in my first path with more than 700km/h. In my second path fly with about 650km/h IAS into the target zone I was istantly killed. The after mission map didnt show a reason, I assume a AAA fragment. The shots again very accurate in this high altitude and with this speed. On this try I reduced the front activity to mid. Under this conditions It seems the AAA mod is unusable so far. Three try's and three times killed inside one of the fastest plane in game, in the last try even in 9000 meters ?

Unfortunately I had no chance to try out can have a mission success In this Altitude ?

I am afraid the result with much mor slower planes in lower altitudes will be devastating, in any case you have to fly finaly steady on a level bombing mission. I dont want to sacrafice my succesfull long term characters ?

I hope the mission log can help

missionReport(2023-07-01_23-13-19).zip

Edited July 2, 2023 by JG4_Moltke1871

[JG4_Moltke1871]

BTW if need any other data just tell ?

[Stonehouse]

1 hour ago, JG4_Moltke1871 said:

BTW if need any other data just tell ?

Hmm I think it was an M1A1 US heavy flak (so 10100m range) but I can't be sure from the mission log file. Is there any chance you could record a track of the time around your aircraft getting hit? 

 

A 109 seems to get killed by a QF3.7 inch (the UK heavy AAA with 14000m range) but it seems like it was AI.

 

I realise you can't predict the exact moment but from past runs you can probably guess roughly where in the mission it will happen so if you start to record just prior to that time and stop after you are hit?

 

Hoping that will give you a track that when zipped is still small enough to post here. 

 

Just I really need to be able to tell what gun was responsible. Different classes of guns use different bot files with their own accuracy/error set up and therefore I need that info to know what to tweak. Otherwise, I'm just taking random guesses. I can try to fly it here when I have time I guess, but realistically I may not see the same thing or have the same issue. 

 

Also, it would be useful to know the gun crew skill, please after flying the mission look for the _gen.mission file in IL-2 Sturmovik Great Battles\data\Missions and zip it and post it. As far as I know career missions are generated in a similar fashion to QMB ones and each one ends up as a _gen file.

 

You don't say whether you were trying to make slight vector changes to confuse the guns or not? The logic is such that each shot by a gun at the same target has less error (to a point) so if you hold the same course, speed and alt you make it easy for them to compute a solution. Going fast isn't the answer by itself, fast just means the solution point is further in front of your aircraft than it would be if you were slower. If you don't alter something in your vector you are 100% predictable. If you don't like varying height or course by a small margin around the base perhaps try changing speed by an amount constantly.

 

Basically, the crew computes where your aircraft will be after the time of flight of the shell based on your vector at the time of computation. They fire at that point. So other than due to error if you don't change something and arrive at that point as they predicted you will get hit.

Initial shots have a bracketing error on top of the base errors, but these reduce quickly. An M1A1 apparently fires ~37 shots in a min (based on ROF in the game files, not sure if it is correct but assume it is - I have seen other places quote 25 rpm but don't know if they are correct either), after 3 shots the bracketing error contributes zero additional error. Therefore, it is also important for me to know definitively if it was the initial shots that get you or ones after the first 3 so I know which error to fiddle with. 

Edited July 2, 2023 by Stonehouse

[JG4_Moltke1871]

I am afraid the core of this mission type didn’t allows even little evasive maneuvers because the corridor of the area to photo is very small and besides, it is not allowed to change the angles of the camera too much. I will try to find the  gen mission file of my last mission.

To make a Vid I think needs too much luck catch the point, so I will not do. My next missions I will fly without the mod to make some progress, sorry about that ??‍♂️

[Stonehouse]

See PM

 

3 hours ago, JG4_Moltke1871 said:

I am afraid the core of this mission type didn’t allows even little evasive maneuvers because the corridor of the area to photo is very small and besides, it is not allowed to change the angles of the camera too much. I will try to find the  gen mission file of my last mission.

To make a Vid I think needs too much luck catch the point, so I will not do. My next missions I will fly without the mod to make some progress, sorry about that ??‍♂️

 

[Letka_13/Arrow_]

9 hours ago, JG4_Moltke1871 said:

I am afraid the core of this mission type didn’t allows even little evasive maneuvers because the corridor of the area to photo is very small and besides, it is not allowed to change the angles of the camera too much. I will try to find the  gen mission file of my last mission.

To make a Vid I think needs too much luck catch the point, so I will not do. My next missions I will fly without the mod to make some progress, sorry about that ??‍♂️

I would suggest to decrease the difficulty and not density - this will lower the skill of AAA and volume of guns, but it will be still a magnitude more intensive than the stock values.

[Stonehouse]

Updated version of AQMB_QMB and career AAA attack range in first post. Still willing to re-evaluate AAA accuracy if there is call for it and I can get enough info to tell me where tweaking is needed. It may have to wait until after July 20 though as I will be away from July 8 for about 12 days.

 

@JG4_Moltke1871 just a passing fyi, I haven't flown your mission (hoping you can upload a copy as mentioned in the PM so I can see what you see) but I realise you can't really take too extreme evasive action while actually doing the photography over the objective due to the requirement to hit a waypoint (I think the criteria needs to be relaxed a bit for this somehow as in real life the pilot just had to overfly the recon target and their speed and height were usually not that important). Hopefully everywhere else in the flight you could alter speed or height by a small constant amount to help avoid flak.

Edited July 3, 2023 by Stonehouse

[JG4_Moltke1871]

_gen.zip

_gen (2).zip

Here the msnbin of my latest test, this time I survived longest time but fialy was shot burned, I think I got a lot of small damage on my way. For sure this was a mission kill/mission impossible. I fly in about 7k with full throttle, I set highest difficulty and frontline activity, the career attack range mod was also activated in the newest version

[JG4_Moltke1871]

career-120-theo test-1944.2023-07-03_12-50-19_05.zip

 

Here a track data, can see the plane suffered a lot before finaly burn ?

My thoughts: In this area I think its the highest possible AAA density in game, espeially with my chosen settings. Every other plane will survive no second, and maybe this it what it should be. Not sure it should be a mission impossible with a jet.

[JG4_Moltke1871]

15 hours ago, Rudolph said:

I would suggest to decrease the difficulty and not density - this will lower the skill of AAA and volume of guns, but it will be still a magnitude more intensive than the stock values.

Good question, but highest difficulty should be very difficult, not impossible. In the vanilla version lower difficultys are MUCH too easy, so I try to find help the right mix here?

In this case I think the fastest plane in the game should survive that special mission type, its ok when every piston engine plane not.

[Stonehouse]

1 hour ago, JG4_Moltke1871 said:

career-120-theo test-1944.2023-07-03_12-50-19_05.zip 2.81 MB · 0 downloads

 

Here a track data, can see the plane suffered a lot before finaly burn ?

My thoughts: In this area I think its the highest possible AAA density in game, espeially with my chosen settings. Every other plane will survive no second, and maybe this it what it should be. Not sure it should be a mission impossible with a jet.

Got them all and will look at them some point tomorrow (midnight here for me) - you've missed the trk file however. You should be able to find a file career-120-theo test-1944.2023-07-03_12-50-19_05.trk in \IL-2 Sturmovik Great Battles\data\Tracks - if you can also provide that then I can play the track. Thanks!

[Stonehouse]

16 hours ago, JG4_Moltke1871 said:

Good question, but highest difficulty should be very difficult, not impossible. In the vanilla version lower difficultys are MUCH too easy, so I try to find help the right mix here?

In this case I think the fastest plane in the game should survive that special mission type, its ok when every piston engine plane not.

 

OK thanks to Moltke I've gone through the mission file and track of the situation being described. I couldn't manage to edit the career generated mission to make a SP version but using notepad++ and the editor I've determined that it seems that gun crews are set to low skill in career missions. So that's one new item of info for future reference.

 

The other analysis is based on the track (see you tube footage below). Some general commentary.

 

• I've slowed the track replay down to 1/4 speed so you can easily see the bursts. The actual time period is about 30-40 secs.
• I'm not sure if the aircraft was damaged prior to the start of the track or if it is a contrail but it seems like there is a coolant or fuel leak at the start of the track already.
• Remember this is low skill crews but the mission has quite a few QF37 and M1A1 AAA emplacements within range of the flight path. So the fire is inaccurate but dense.
• Moltke doesn't appear alter the aircraft vector much if at all. So no changes in speed, height or course that I can tell. Repeating an earlier comment - high speed in a case like this doesn't equal safety from flak. It just means they need to use more lead. 700 kph = approx 190m/s. Typically a AAA round has a speed of around 820m/s or approx 2900 kph. So you can't outrun the round. Only by changing your 3D vector so you don't arrive at the point the gun crew predicted based on your vector at the time they shoot will protect you. You need to change the vector enough so you are outside the sphere of shrapnel when the shell explodes at the predicted point.
• I do understand that the game mechanics for photo recon are very restrictive and much more so than what I understand was the case in real life. IE to get the PR automation and prompts to work you need to exactly hit waypoints. 
• As you can see even though the aircraft doesn't do flak avoidance maneuvers only one or two AAA bursts get close enough to damage the aircraft. Once to damage the fuselage near the main undercarriage and (even though I can't see the shrapnel that presumably causes it) once to cause the engine fire. Although I'm not sure whether the fire is due to the apparent leak causing overheating over time.
• It definitely is not the initial bracketing shots causing the situation.
• To me it appears all damage to the aircraft is shrapnel related, this plus the point immediately prior suggests that generally the AAA mod is working as I intended.

The questions I would like feedback on:

• The M1A1 gun has been given a reload rate of 1.62 secs. This equates to about 37 rounds per min. Sources I have seen suggest this is too high and it should be somewhere around 25-28 rounds per min or a rate of 2.4 secs for each reload. Can someone provide a good quality source to confirm the ROF of the gun please? ie not wikipedia or similar. If someone can provide such a source, I will reduce the M1A1s ROF and also report it as a likely bug.
• As you can see from the video the AAA fire is quite dense if not that accurate. Guessing about 8-10 guns are firing at Moltke at times. If the mission had less emplacements the density and also the chance of critical damage to the aircraft would be much lower.  Moltke doesn't evade the fire due to the PR mechanics restrictions. Career AAA gun crews seem to be low skill. Considering the AAA mod is a 1 size fits all situations and covers missions with 1 gun, 8-10 guns or more and everything in between as well as fighter missions, bombing missions, ground attack, transports plus PR - is there a need to further increase the error for low skill AAA to make them less of a threat? I am concerned that doing so may help the Photo Recon missions but everything else will end up with the AAA being simply eye candy and not credible.

If people can provide their feedback over the next 2 weeks, I will review it on my return from my trip and take any appropriate action. Thanks.

 

 

Edited July 4, 2023 by Stonehouse

[JG4_Moltke1871]

The first career mission in Sonderkommando Götz is very unique in AAA density. Maybe the most busy spot with all the ships and armed airfields in the game. Maybe it should as difficult as it is with the AAA mod. It would be a pity if this mod became toothless due to changes. 
Thanks @Stonehouse take time for this analysis ?

[RedeyeStorm]

Hello @Stonehouse,

 

I have been using both mods (this one and longer range engage mod). I have been flying me410 missions which are night missions where each plane attacks individually. I am usually the only one to get back. I love the amount of AAA but accuracy can be turned down it will have my vote.

[JG4_Moltke1871]

13 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

 

OK thanks to Moltke I've gone through the mission file and track of the situation being described. I couldn't manage to edit the career generated mission to make a SP version but using notepad++ and the editor I've determined that it seems that gun crews are set to low skill in career missions. So that's one new item of info for future reference.

 

The other analysis is based on the track (see you tube footage below). Some general commentary.

 

• I've slowed the track replay down to 1/4 speed so you can easily see the bursts. The actual time period is about 30-40 secs.
• I'm not sure if the aircraft was damaged prior to the start of the track or if it is a contrail but it seems like there is a coolant or fuel leak at the start of the track already.
• Remember this is low skill crews but the mission has quite a few QF37 and M1A1 AAA emplacements within range of the flight path. So the fire is inaccurate but dense.
• Moltke doesn't appear alter the aircraft vector much if at all. So no changes in speed, height or course that I can tell. Repeating an earlier comment - high speed in a case like this doesn't equal safety from flak. It just means they need to use more lead. 700 kph = approx 190m/s. Typically a AAA round has a speed of around 820m/s or approx 2900 kph. So you can't outrun the round. Only by changing your 3D vector so you don't arrive at the point the gun crew predicted based on your vector at the time they shoot will protect you. You need to change the vector enough so you are outside the sphere of shrapnel when the shell explodes at the predicted point.
• I do understand that the game mechanics for photo recon are very restrictive and much more so than what I understand was the case in real life. IE to get the PR automation and prompts to work you need to exactly hit waypoints. 
• As you can see even though the aircraft doesn't do flak avoidance maneuvers only one or two AAA bursts get close enough to damage the aircraft. Once to damage the fuselage near the main undercarriage and (even though I can't see the shrapnel that presumably causes it) once to cause the engine fire. Although I'm not sure whether the fire is due to the apparent leak causing overheating over time.
• It definitely is not the initial bracketing shots causing the situation.
• To me it appears all damage to the aircraft is shrapnel related, this plus the point immediately prior suggests that generally the AAA mod is working as I intended.

The questions I would like feedback on:

• The M1A1 gun has been given a reload rate of 1.62 secs. This equates to about 37 rounds per min. Sources I have seen suggest this is too high and it should be somewhere around 25-28 rounds per min or a rate of 2.4 secs for each reload. Can someone provide a good quality source to confirm the ROF of the gun please? ie not wikipedia or similar. If someone can provide such a source, I will reduce the M1A1s ROF and also report it as a likely bug.
• As you can see from the video the AAA fire is quite dense if not that accurate. Guessing about 8-10 guns are firing at Moltke at times. If the mission had less emplacements the density and also the chance of critical damage to the aircraft would be much lower.  Moltke doesn't evade the fire due to the PR mechanics restrictions. Career AAA gun crews seem to be low skill. Considering the AAA mod is a 1 size fits all situations and covers missions with 1 gun, 8-10 guns or more and everything in between as well as fighter missions, bombing missions, ground attack, transports plus PR - is there a need to further increase the error for low skill AAA to make them less of a threat? I am concerned that doing so may help the Photo Recon missions but everything else will end up with the AAA being simply eye candy and not credible.

If people can provide their feedback over the next 2 weeks, I will review it on my return from my trip and take any appropriate action. Thanks.

 

 

To make remember:

You only saw this Video. From four try’s of the difficult beach area two ended in flames like this, one pilot kill by AAA in 9k and one direct hit on the plane that causes crash & death (alt about 6500 meters).

However, finally I managed a more easy recon mission, I will send you later a video about ?

About how it works with level bombing just have to make experience.

Edited July 4, 2023 by JG4_Moltke1871

[Stonehouse]

Please remember to try to classify at least whether it is heavy or light AAA and which allegiance is of concern. If you can advise the gun crew skill that is even better.

 

I can assume from Moltke's description of the altitude involved that it is Allied heavy AAA. Although at 6500m indicated altitude it could be 40mm Bofors firing at max range which are much deadlier than German 20 and 37mm flak. ie they are sitting a couple of 100m above sea level and so you are in range.

 

For @RedeyeStorm I can assume it is Allied since you are talking Me410s but it's not clear whether it is heavy or light AAA.

 

Gunnery error is 99% controlled by the bot file attached to the individual gun. Each bot file covers multiple skill levels. Generally, I've broken it down to classes of AAA except for some special cases where I know the fire control systems were better than average so that a bot file will cover more than a single weapon. but to make my life easier I need at least some general clues as to the type of gun you feel is potentially an issue.

 

If you can definitely determine if it is the initial 3 bracketing shots or not that's a bonus but remember 1 example doesn't make statistics. Just for a fictional example, don't say there is a problem with bracketing shots quoting a single instance where you or an AI got hit with the first AAA round. If you play the same mission 10 times or more and every time the single 88 at the target airfield hits you first shot, then that's a trend I need to investigate.

 

The gunnery error is randomized to an extent around the point of aim so bad or good luck depending on your viewpoint does play a part, as best I can tell all gunners in IL2 work out a perfect shot and then apply error factors to get the final firing solution. However, they will get the round generally in the region of where you will be if you don't make vector changes to stop being predictable (other than PR missions over the photo waypoints). So you are much more likely to get hit especially when there are a lot of guns firing at you due to the area around you being saturated with shrapnel. The mod unfortunately does need to take account of the fact that AI pilots fly stupid so it has to be worse at accuracy than if all aircraft flew like humans.

 

Anyway, please keep the feedback coming and as I said I will go through it in detail when I get back. 

 

Thanks

Edited July 22, 2023 by Stonehouse

[JG4_Moltke1871]

Just tried the difficult part of the Ar 234 recon mission without AAA and attack range mod. Without the mods its just a flight ?

But the task so challanging with mod impossible becausse need a lot of try to finish the task, sidewind makes it really difficult.

However, maybe I play with the attack range mod and let the AAA mod out next time. Nothing in the world is perfect ?

 

[RedeyeStorm]

Hey @Stonehouse,

 

It is both. It’s Normandy off course and I am attacking a target in England. My wingmen are lit up by a search light and then pounded to dust. Some get shot down through damage by Heavy AAA, others live long enough to fly in range of 40mm Bofors and then die. I survive by dodging but the AI fly nice and predictable as we know. And with these night missions the come on one at a time. 
 

[MajorMagee]

I've always been bothered in Tank Crew by the sluggish, or non-existent response of the AAA vehicle gunners. This mod make a big difference in feeling like they're actually doing something to help. To that end, for anyone interested in the ground unit perspective, I've just put together a supplemental Mod to cover the AI Expansion vehicles found here https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/84412-additional-ai-vehicle-mod-packages/?do=findComment&comment=1276760. It does make the fight seem a bit more fair on the receiving end of an air to ground attack.

 

 

 

Edited July 6, 2023 by MajorMagee

[Stonehouse]

OK thanks for the clarifications and additional comments (I do like your additional ai vehicle mod MajorMagee). I'm tied up with packing and getting ready for my trip but will revisit the accuracy side of AAA when I get back around July 20 as it sounds like there is a need to do so.

[Stonehouse]

Back late last night, dealing with the whole unpacking, washing etc side but will start looking at the accuracy soon. If there is any other feedback from the last 2 weeks please let me know.

[Picchio]

Hi @Stonehouse, and welcome back ?

I've been flying a bit, and here's what happened in my missions.

Campaign settings are High density and Hard difficulty.

I'm using both the AAA and Attack Range mod.

From my current career with the Spitfire MkIX, I flew a free hunt sortie from England to Normandy.

I flew wingman, so the flight just held the planned course. We flew at 6000 feet or so. No one got hit by AAA.

Flew another escort mission with 8+ heavy bombers, about the same altitude, only one of them was hit.

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by Picchio