AAA mod

[Stonehouse]

no apparent changes required post 5.004b

[Stonehouse]

Apologies must have been tired when I looked at this earlier. I missed seeing some of the armored car changes, so I've resynchronized the mod to the 5.004b game files and uploaded a new version. Sorry again, please download the 29 Dec version to ensure you get the new functionality the devs added in the hot fix.

[creamersdream]

Which zip file is the updated one? There are 3 on the first post.

[Stonehouse]

2 hours ago, creamersdream said:

Which zip file is the updated one? There are 3 on the first post.

 

DOH I need to plug my brain in! Ok fixed, sorry I forgot to remove the old ones.

[Picchio]

I've been using this mod in my latest PWCG career and I've got to say, I enjoy the challenge. Ground attack missions are a nightmare, especially around heavily defended areas - PWCG seems to like placing AAA emplacements in defense of bridges, and if a city happens to be near a bend of the river, with three bridges around it... well. Defensive maneuvering truly makes a lot more sense now, and you really don't want to hang around after an attack.

[Stonehouse]

Ok so PWCG I believe puts all AAA to low skill. So, respecting the density of placements does the mod need tweaking in regard to accuracy?

 

As I said a few posts back I'm looking for feedback remembering AAA needs to be challenging without being so overpowered it feels totally unplayable. That said the mod is less deadly than stock particularly on the initial bracketing shot.

 

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Stonehouse

[Picchio]

Well, consider that I've just started using it: I have not checked the skill set by PWCG but my initial feelings are that accuracy seems belivable while being a bit more forgiving than default. As soon as I find the time I'll test the same mission with and without the mod and make better observations.

[FodderMonkey]

23 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

Ok so PWCG I believe puts all AAA to low skill. So, respecting the density of placements does the mod need tweaking in regard to accuracy?

 

As I said a few posts back I'm looking for feedback remembering AAA needs to be challenging without being so overpowered it feels totally unplayable. That said the mod is less deadly than stock particularly on the initial bracketing shot.

 

I like it as it is, especially with the initial bracketing shots being a bit more forgiving.  It's changed the way I do ground attack missions: The first thing I go for is any AA emplacements on the way into the target.  If I don't wipe any out on the first pass, well, the mission isn't going to go well.  It also forces staying grouped with the formation for a better chance at survival.  Definitely makes you respect AA coverage and plan/respond accordingly.

[Picchio]

After a few more missions, I have no notes to make but my only desire would be that the AI could wake the hell up when taking fire from the ground. I read in the past that this is a mission design limit, that AIs won't evade while flying between waypoints... well, half the regiment is in hospital after four sorties.

I'm starting to regret choosing a ground attack campaign, sigh.

Unless I manage to convince the superiors to accept my saying in flight planning despite my despicably low rank...

 

Edited January 8, 2023 by Picchio

[Stonehouse]

25 minutes ago, Picchio said:

After a few more missions, I have no notes to make but my only desire would be that the AI could wake the hell up when taking fire from the ground. I read in the past that this is a mission design limit, that AIs won't evade while flying between waypoints... well, half the regiment is in hospital after four sorties.

I'm starting to regret choosing a ground attack campaign, sigh.

Unless I manage to convince the superiors to accept my saying in flight planning despite my despicably low rank...

 

Yes, I know. Even just a random variation around a planned enroute altitude by +/- 100ft would make a big difference.

 

I can back off the accuracy some more to try to improve the situation if people want it.

 

If you are the flight lead you can force the variation in your flight, but it still makes you wince when you see the AI only flights stroll through the AAA fields.

[Picchio]

@Stonehouse I need to run a few more tests with the missions I've saved and with the QMB before I can point out which AA units are more problematic compared to default. My impression is that MGs (I'll check which units) are more accurate, but that could simply depend on the rate of fire. Don't change anything just yet.

[WitchyWoman]

does this run with ai gunnery or is it better to use one or the other?

[Stonehouse]

1 hour ago, WitchyWoman said:

does this run with ai gunnery or is it better to use one or the other?

 

Different things. AI Gunnery is just aerial gunnery and AAAmod is just AAA. So they co-exist quite happily.

[Stonehouse]

FYI while this mod is likely fine, I have not checked it yet against the new patch files. Will try to get time over the next day or so. 

[Stonehouse]

Updated version in first post.

[Stonehouse]

Don't believe 5.1.01b required any changes for this mod

[JG4_Moltke1871]

Just played it on Flying Circus... the home airfield is a very very save place ( 4 or 5 SE5 attacked me, RTB and there they was shredded in 1 or 2 minutes )

After that continue my ground recon mission... jesus.... I played it with highest ground density and highest difficulty.. its a mirical I survived that ... ?

For Flying circus I disable it but I think it will be good make high alt bombings in WW2 more interesting, I will try ?

Thanks for that mod?

[Stonehouse]

8 hours ago, JG4_Moltke1871 said:

I played it with highest ground density and highest difficulty

Interesting. Accuracy, especially for the initial bracketing shots is reduced by the mod but the gun crews are more responsive under the mod and will engage and track more readily. After one of the recent patches - the Normandy one maybe - someone said light AAA had become very deadly even with the mod running but stopped short of giving specifics, so I didn't make any changes. The WW1 guns are quite separate so I can detune them a bit more if people say they need it while leaving WW2 as is. I don't fly FC very much so I may not see issues others do. 

Edited April 10, 2023 by Stonehouse

[Letka_13/Arrow_]

16 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

Interesting. Accuracy, especially for the initial bracketing shots is reduced by the mod but the gun crews are more responsive under the mod and will engage and track more readily. After one of the recent patches - the Normandy one maybe - someone said light AAA had become very deadly even with the mod running but stopped short of giving specifics, so I didn't make any changes. The WW1 guns are quite separate so I can detune them a bit more if people say they need it while leaving WW2 as is. I don't fly FC very much so I may not see issues others do. 

Stonehouse, I have to say that I have also recently seen that light AAA has become very deadly after the latest two patches. They are able to hit me steadily flying at 3000 feet and 300 mph with maneuvering, which I think is maybe a bit too much.

[Stonehouse]

17 hours ago, Rudolph said:

light AAA has become very deadly after the latest two patches.

Ok I'll look at it again while I work on the WW1 side.

[Stonehouse]

Beta version - please test and provide feedback. If feedback is positive, I'll update the main post. Pretty obviously don't use the beta and the current main version at the same time.

 

Thank you.

 

• Toned down light WW2 AAA
• Reworked WW1 AAA

 

AAAmodbeta.zip

Edited April 13, 2023 by Stonehouse

[IckyATLAS]

Excellent. I could see that this mod is "correcting" the AAA gun parameters for vehicles, ships etc. This means that you have mastered the control of AAA guns.

However there is one AAA gun type which I find of great interest and that is the Gunners in the Bombers.

Is it possible through a mod to make them fire against attacking airplanes even when the Waypoint Priority parameter is set to High or the Attack Area Priority parameter is set to High.

Now in those cases the Gunners fall completely silent and do not react to attacking fighters. Maybe there is a simple parameter to change, which I have no idea how to do as my modding competence is near to nil.

 

[Stonehouse]

1 minute ago, IckyATLAS said:

Excellent. I could see that this mod is "correcting" the AAA gun parameters for vehicles, ships etc. This means that you have mastered the control of AAA guns.

However there is one AAA gun type which I find of great interest and that is the Gunners in the Bombers.

Is it possible through a mod to make them fire against attacking airplanes even when the Waypoint Priority parameter is set to High or the Attack Area Priority parameter is set to High.

Now in those cases the Gunners fall completely silent and do not react to attacking fighters. Maybe there is a simple parameter to change, which I have no idea how to do as my modding competence is near to nil.

 

 

I can go looking but I am fairly sure that logic is hidden from us. For both the AAAmod and the AI Gunnery mod I am working on the AI's responsiveness and error calculations. I don't believe either has any impact on a situation where the waypoint has overridden the ability of the AI to shoot.

[Letka_13/Arrow_]

35 minutes ago, Stonehouse said:

Beta version - please test and provide feedback. If feedback is positive, I'll update the main post. Pretty obviously don't use the beta and the current main version at the same time.

 

Thank you.

 

• Toned down light WW2 AAA
• Reworked WW1 AAA

 

AAAmodbeta.zip 84.59 kB · 2 downloads

Thank you Stonehouse, I'll test it today and provide feedback. After further testing of the previous version QMB and career, light AAA was really very deadly - last patches probably made the AI more accurate and that resulted in it being probably too precise. I tested 10 attacks against an airfield with high speed and high off bore angle approaches and I was always hit (10/10).   

[JG4_Moltke1871]

Thanks @Stonehouse, I will start some FC career missions and report what I have seen later. 

A question about AAA AI target selection. I observe that the heavy AA often targeting the fighter escord, not the bomber formation. Good for me in my bomber, but do you know how tha AI select the target? Did the heavy AA snap automatic on the highest target (for usual the fighter escord above the bomber unit)?

[Stonehouse]

37 minutes ago, JG4_Moltke1871 said:

Thanks @Stonehouse, I will start some FC career missions and report what I have seen later. 

A question about AAA AI target selection. I observe that the heavy AA often targeting the fighter escord, not the bomber formation. Good for me in my bomber, but do you know how tha AI select the target? Did the heavy AA snap automatic on the highest target (for usual the fighter escord above the bomber unit)?

No sorry - target selection sits somewhere higher up in the logic chain than where I am working. At the point my changes have an effect the AI has already chosen the target and decided to shoot.

59 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Thank you Stonehouse, I'll test it today and provide feedback. After further testing of the previous version QMB and career, light AAA was really very deadly - last patches probably made the AI more accurate and that resulted in it being probably too precise. I tested 10 attacks against an airfield with high speed and high off bore angle approaches and I was always hit (10/10).   

Don't know the details of your test mission but just remember that if you are attacking solo then you are going to be the focus of all the AAA. Even if I make them hopeless the volume of fire could mean you get hit. There was a reason that squadrons worked out tactics that had multiple aircraft attacking from diverse directions and timing. 

Edited April 13, 2023 by Stonehouse

[JG4_Moltke1871]

Flying Circus Career mode, Played with Stinehouse's AAA MOD Played with highest difficulty and density.Attack altitude 3000 Meters with 8x40kg Bombs. Good hits on Target. First raid cant finish bacause too cloudy, one AI mate lost by AAA. Circle in the surrounding and wait the wind pushes the clouds away for a clear target. While that my squad left me behind, reason unknown. So I flew my final attack alone and the AAA Ai can focus me. The Flakfire is really intense, about 15 AAAs in te area (airfield beside the target).Evasive action necessary. Same intensity later when I crossed the frontline. The Breguet is a fast, argile plane, I am not sure Gothas can survive that ? 

A Gotha Mission I will try later.

Mission with Bristol, Bomber Escord:

Escorted 9 Breguets in 2000 Meters My flight 6 Bristols at Target they go lower for ground attack mode., later escape in about 1000-1500 over the frontline.

Result. 3 Brstols and 4 Breguets down ( 6 losses by 7,7mm Flak, 1 by Spandau MG )

Balloon Attack with Bristols: 6 Bristols try to escape over the frontline, I was hit by 7,7mm but can land emergency and woundet on our side, one more bristol killed by 7,7mm

Artillery Recon: Its necessary fly 4000 meters minimum to have a bit calm. The Flak is noticeably reduced than in 3000 meters. I think in 3000 meters have no chance finish the task. But also in 4000 meters the AAA is much more intense than iplaying in 2500-3000 meters without mod. Means keep on moving or you also will shot down in 4k.

For my experience this heavy AAA is too hard, see the losses. Intense in 4k, very dangerous in 3k, absolut deadly in lower alt's.

Ground AAA like maxim an heavy MG not testet yet.

 

[Stonehouse]

OK 15 AAA and probably mix of medium and high skill crews since you were on highest difficulty sounds like it should be hard but will drop the heavy AAA down some. Must have got too keen lol. Unfortunately, it isn't tunable by height band, and it likely gets harder lower down simply because you are closer and so the error is less.

 

If you can see how the light AAA goes that would be good. Thanks.

 

New beta version:

• Reduced WW1 heavy AAA accuracy 

 

AAAmodbeta.zip

Edited April 13, 2023 by Stonehouse

[JG4_Moltke1871]

On 4/14/2023 at 12:51 AM, Stonehouse said:

OK 15 AAA and probably mix of medium and high skill crews since you were on highest difficulty sounds like it should be hard but will drop the heavy AAA down some. Must have got too keen lol. Unfortunately, it isn't tunable by height band, and it likely gets harder lower down simply because you are closer and so the error is less.

 

If you can see how the light AAA goes that would be good. Thanks.

 

New beta version:

• Reduced WW1 heavy AAA accuracy 

 

AAAmodbeta.zip 84.59 kB · 6 downloads

My experience with the new Beta for FC/WW1:

I flew a Gotha sortie with 4 planes including me, highest difficulty, frontline activity was mid. Altitude was 3100 meters. While crossing the frontline and later approaching the target got really scary AAA fire. One plane was damaged already while crossing the frontline but can continue the mission. Later it was lost short before reaching the base. My pilot and front gunner was wounded and the plane lightly damaged. While I was in the Bombsight I really thought the next boom is a hit ?.

So all in one a good experience, maybe I have to try to attack on 4000 meters for more safety but this will be painful because the AI already need about 1 hour to reach 3000 and form up.?

Another Sortie was a Artillery recon with a Bristol. On 4000 meters, it feels safe as long I was turning. Go straight and the Flakfire comes scary close. 
A balloon attack flown with a Spad VII early: Scary Flakfire while crossing the frontline, a lot of action around the balloon seems AAA not focused me.

After shoot down the balloon with rockets escape over the frontline in about 1000 (or less) meters, there I take some hits from MG, evasive maneuver was necessary because the MG is able to hit ?, heavy AA also very dangerous and followed over the frontline. 

Both last missions flown highest difficulty and highest front activity.

So far had no time try out low altitude ground attacks and the AAA resistance there.

 

My thoughts so far. The high alt AAA is still scary and strong in the played settings. Should not stronger. To be more save I am forced to climb higher, this is how it should work. For the career generated missions will it mean the AI will suffer more losses (so far I saw AI formations fly their missions max 2500 to 3000).

For me this Mod is ok for the higher altitudes, let’s see other players experience. Long term experience will show MAYBE reduce it JUST A BIT.
Low level AAA I will report as I have the experience.

At all this MOD makes the FC career mode much more exciting.??

 

 

Edit: at abot 4500 meters/15000 feet its save against german heavy AAA

 

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by JG4_Moltke1871

[Letka_13/Arrow_]

On 4/13/2023 at 10:54 AM, Stonehouse said:

Don't know the details of your test mission but just remember that if you are attacking solo then you are going to be the focus of all the AAA. Even if I make them hopeless the volume of fire could mean you get hit. There was a reason that squadrons worked out tactics that had multiple aircraft attacking from diverse directions and timing. 

I am very well aware of that, however I feel that the problem was different and that was that a single light AAA was able to consistently track and hit me at the edge of its attack envelope flying at high speeds and high off bore angles (like 90 degrees). Such deflection shots at range of 2000 meters are possible only with radar guidance. I think that beta is slightly better in this regard, still very deadly, but less accurate in these situations. 

[Stonehouse]

Ok sounds like I need to wait for some more feedback before tweaking anything again. @Rudolph you don't say whether you are flying WW2 or WW1. They are quite separate now so it's important for me to know. Assuming you mean WW2 but you need to be specific.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Stonehouse

[Letka_13/Arrow_]

15 minutes ago, Stonehouse said:

Ok sounds like I need to wait for some more feedback before tweaking anything again. @Rudolph you don't say whether you are flying WW2 or WW1. They are quite separate now so it's important for me to know. Assuming you mean WW2 but you need to be specific.

Thanks for the reply, sorry, I am flying WW2, usually I use Tempest/Typhoon to be fast when testing AAA. 

[JG4_Moltke1871]

On 4/14/2023 at 12:51 AM, Stonehouse said:

OK 15 AAA and probably mix of medium and high skill crews since you were on highest difficulty sounds like it should be hard but will drop the heavy AAA down some. Must have got too keen lol. Unfortunately, it isn't tunable by height band, and it likely gets harder lower down simply because you are closer and so the error is less.

 

If you can see how the light AAA goes that would be good. Thanks.

 

New beta version:

• Reduced WW1 heavy AAA accuracy 

 

AAAmodbeta.zip 84.59 kB · 7 downloads

 

 

I tried to attack an airfield in low altitude. the whole squad (6 planes) was shredded in about 10 seconds by maxim guns

Maybe you try to start a quick mission on the western front map against AA. I flew above the airfield and after a few seconds was killed by a hotchkiss MG. Seems much too accurate.

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by JG4_Moltke1871

[JG4_Moltke1871]

In the sake of god, this isn't playable... ?

 

[FodderMonkey]

38 minutes ago, JG4_Moltke1871 said:

In the sake of god, this isn't playable... ?

 

Ok, maybe that *one* guy just happens to be really, really good ?

[Stonehouse]

1 hour ago, JG4_Moltke1871 said:

In the sake of god, this isn't playable

LOL ok light AAA tweaking to be done. If you have a moment, try to open that mission in the editor and report back what skill that gunner was on. QMB missions are found in IL-2 Sturmovik Great Battles\data\Missions and are named _gen.mission. You can actually turn the mission into a normal single player mission with a bit of fiddling in the editor. Then you can use it as a repeatable test mission. I've been using a single Biff in free flight with AAA only on as ground targets and QMB puts an enemy airfield close to your start position. At about 3000-4000ft I was ok against both types of AAA as long as I changed my vector every 10 secs approx. This could be simply climbing or diving a little or speeding up or slowing down. I don't want them so inaccurate that you can ignore the ground fire but agree it needs to be playable as well. As a result, it is unavoidable that AI aircraft will always be worse off than players because the devs haven't given them a flak avoidance routine and they always fly at the same height and speed which is an easy shot.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Stonehouse

[Stonehouse]

11 hours ago, Rudolph said:

high off bore angles (like 90 degrees).

Just wanted to make sure I am on the same page re terminology. I'm assuming you mean the situation is where you are passing across the guns field of fire and they must track you as you fly past/over and at the closest approach to the gun there is a 90 deg angle between the gun barrel and your flight path.

 

If so, that isn't as hard a shot for them to make as you might think in WW2 era guns especially if you hold a fairly constant vector. Although if you are going over the gun there is a dead zone at their max elevation where the gun has to rotate to continue tracking you. Max elevation however is quite high for most AAA, so the dead zone is small.

 

Can you give a short sentence to describe what you mean please?

Edited April 15, 2023 by Stonehouse

[Stonehouse]

New version of beta. Hoping this seems better for people otherwise I might have to start changing a couple of relevant lines in vehicle turret defs rather than just bot definitions. Been trying to avoid that as it is a much bigger overhead in terms of mod maintenance.

• Both WW1 and WW2 light AAA reduced in accuracy again.

 

AAAmodbeta.zip

[Letka_13/Arrow_]

8 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

Just wanted to make sure I am on the same page re terminology. I'm assuming you mean the situation is where you are passing across the guns field of fire and they must track you as you fly past/over and at the closest approach to the gun there is a 90 deg angle between the gun barrel and your flight path.

 

If so, that isn't as hard a shot for them to make as you might think in WW2 era guns especially if you hold a fairly constant vector. Although if you are going over the gun there is a dead zone at their max elevation where the gun has to rotate to continue tracking you. Max elevation however is quite high for most AAA, so the dead zone is small.

 

Can you give a short sentence to describe what you mean please?

Yes, that is exactly what I meant by it. It might not be the most difficult shot, but I am not sure if they should reliably hit me at very high speeds and at the edge of their engagement range all the time. 

[Stonehouse]

1 hour ago, Rudolph said:

Yes, that is exactly what I meant by it. It might not be the most difficult shot, but I am not sure if they should reliably hit me at very high speeds and at the edge of their engagement range all the time. 

It all depends on whether you are maintaining the same velocity vector in 3D space or not.  If you maintain the same vector, you are predictable regardless of speed or range. If you are predictable then they just need to get their lead correct to likely hit you with a burst and while I am not 100% sure I believe IL2 calculates a perfect shot and then applies an error and dispersion to that shot to determine where the shot goes. If it is like the aircraft gunners, then there is perhaps a small randomness to it as well. For aircraft gunners the relative difference in speed between shooter and target is the biggest contributor to gunner error. I'm not sure what it is for AAA as the error calc is not viewable like it is for air gunners. I believe you really need to vary your vector by a change of speed or alt or sideslip or perhaps a weave around your base course.

 

The error applied is based on skill (higher skill lower error) and whether the gun has shot at you more than once. The worst error is the first shot, and it reduces over the next two until it plateaus. Other than that, it is pretty much only dispersion that is the other factor. For light AAA the rate of fire is such that the error reduces quite quickly.

 

This is why AI die - they hold a constant vector. If the devs added something like a simple +/- 10% of altitude variation for AI around their briefed waypoint altitude when they came under AAA fire you would see a huge drop in casualties. 

 

The reducing error is also why attacking on your own is dangerous as all guns in range will focus on you and essentially cone you with their fire and the volume of fire means you are likely to get hit by someone once the error drops. You can really see this on beach head patrols when at times you have only one aircraft executing an attack and the cone of tracer on that aircraft is very intense. Initially the fire has incorrect lead or height but once the error drops to the constant the volume of fire means they don't last long unless actively maneuvering. They usually settle to a constant vector to strafe something and die. With the last tweak I did see some Luftwaffe survivors and they did score some hits on ground targets, so I took that as an improvement. On stock usually it is 100% attackers destroyed by AAA for little results and typically your patrol doesn't need to do anything.

Edited April 16, 2023 by Stonehouse