AAA mod

[Stonehouse]

Thinking some more about this - the BeamRadStart and BeamRadEnd parameters are probably just radius of the beam at point of origin and out at 5000m (the searchlight max range in IL2). So, checking my references for German searchlights and AAA I see that generally the lights directly attached to the gun batteries were 60cm dia lights and the dedicated searchlight units were 150 dia cm. The large fixed ones were 200 dia cm. Allied seems to be 60cm, 90cm, 120cm and 150cm based on info on British searchlight units I have seen. 

 

In IL2 all searchlights are the same for these parameters and max range and I assume that the devs have taken the approach that generally the lights in service of different countries had roughly the same characteristics. As best I can tell we have the small 60cm lights in game.

 

According to what I've read so far these were for use against low flying targets and had an in-focus range of about 5700 yds or about 5200m against targets at 5000 ft or about 1500m. If the beam was dispersed, then the range was about 3500 yds or 3200m. The light used dispersed focus to search for targets and switched to focused beam on the target when they found one. Generally, the 60cm lights were part of light flak batteries. So, a German light flak battalion often had 3 light gun batteries each of 12 20mm guns (36 in total) and a searchlight battery of 16 60cm lights. Each gun battery had approx 4 lights attached. I assume the additional 4 were used to plug gaps. Very commonly it was a mixed battalion of 3 heavy btty (each 4-6 88mm plus 2 20mm for close in protection) and 2 light btty (ea 12 20mm guns and 4 60cm lights) or 1 light btty and 1 med btty (9 37mm guns and 4 60cm lights). 

 

So, the max range seems about right in game. Not sure about dispersed v's focused in game terms. I need to recheck but I kind of think they are always focused?

 

So, if always focused, I assume the BeamRadStart of 2 means that at point of origin the beam was 2m radius and a BeamRadEnd of 100m (stock value) was the beam radius at 5000m?

 

I'll try to fiddle around with the values some more. You'd kind of think that a 60cm diameter light would have a BeamRadStart of 0.3? 

 

 

<edit> Nope on rechecking via a screenshot of a light in action I can see from the crew near the light that these are bigger than 60cm. 

In fact, I wonder if the lights in game are correct. Based on the guy standing near the light the German ones are approx 120-150cm radius or 240-300cm diameter.  The 60cm German lights had a 3-man crew but a 150cm dia light had a 14-man crew (including sound locator team, generator guys and 3 truck drivers. 1 truck for the light, 1 for the locator and 1 for the generator). The 150cm light had a range of about 8000m against targets flying ~4000 to 5000m up. 

 

It looks like our light is incorrectly scaled based on the 5000m range meaning they are meant to be 60cm diameter lights. Maybe just a graphical anomaly.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Stonehouse

[Stonehouse]

Re v5.108 updates.

• I'll do the review of the main mod as part of pushing the beta in the post a few above to the release version. 
• Don't expect there are any changes required to AAA Heavy flak effects
• Don't expect changes to EMG AAA attack range (so far) as Vander hasn't released a new version of EMG and while I expect it will arrive in due time I think that the generic template will not change, but will double check when there is an EMG update.
• AQMB_QMB and career AAA attack range I'll have to recheck as there have been updates to this area in 5.108

[Stonehouse]

On 11/22/2023 at 10:20 AM, Stonehouse said:

Re v5.108 updates.

• I'll do the review of the main mod as part of pushing the beta in the post a few above to the release version. 
• Don't expect there are any changes required to AAA Heavy flak effects
• Don't expect changes to EMG AAA attack range (so far) as Vander hasn't released a new version of EMG and while I expect it will arrive in due time I think that the generic template will not change, but will double check when there is an EMG update.
• AQMB_QMB and career AAA attack range I'll have to recheck as there have been updates to this area in 5.108

 

• New version of AAA mod released based on 20 Nov beta.
• No changes for AAA heavy flak effects post 5.108 confirmed.
• AQMB_QMB and career AAA attack range review post 5.108 and possible update WIP.

 

@migmadmarine if you have time and could give some feedback as to whether the searchlight changes have done anything useful that'd be great. I don't do a lot of night missions, so it is hard to tell whether the tweaks I've made have done something to address your issue. Thanks.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Stonehouse

[migmadmarine]

Yea, I'll make sure to do a couple of night missions soon, to pass some along. 

[migmadmarine]

Finally done a bit of testing of the new version, doesn't seem like much has changed with searchlight behavior, they still switch on and lay onto you within seconds, at least in career mode.

 

My gripe is that there feels as if there is no chance of *not* being found by the light. Perhaps I am wrong, but it seems like most accounts to do with searchlights describe fear of the chance of having the light find you, where as in game it seems like if the light is in range, it will be on you, no matter how you are flying. I will note however these couple of test flights I've done so far are with the LI-2 on Stalingrad, so we are only at around 1,000 meters and with a bright moon on these couple flights, I don't know if the game accounts for moonlight and/or altitude in detection time. 

 

I am in one of these missions now, and a squadron mate has reached a place with a flak battery ahead of me. From the lights switching on parallel the ground to laying on the aircraft was genuinely 2 seconds. 

[Stonehouse]

15 minutes ago, migmadmarine said:

Finally done a bit of testing of the new version, doesn't seem like much has changed with searchlight behavior, they still switch on and lay onto you within seconds, at least in career mode.

Ok thanks - it was a long shot. The beam radius was the only values remotely connected with speed of acquisition/chance of not finding the target aircraft I can see. Last thing to try is perhaps search angle. I'll put up a small mod soon that you can load after the AAA mod that alters the search angle and you can see if that makes any difference. If it doesn't, I think I am out of options.

 

General FYI for everyone else:

 

Users of the AQMB_QMB and career AAA attack range mod - best I can see there are no changes required post 5.108. It's fine to use as is.

[Stonehouse]

@migmadmarine

 

Here you go - see if this helps at all. This is cutting the searchangle down from 30 to 10 as well as keeping the beam radius changes in the last release.

 

Search angle has the comment (in Russian) that translates apparently to "The angle at which the beam begins to "feel" the target"

 

migmadmarine searchlight test.zip

Edited November 30, 2023 by Stonehouse

[migmadmarine]

Ok, I'll give that a shot, and here's hoping. It does seem like the beam "feels" you without evening illuminating you, so that note gives me hope. 

[Stonehouse]

On 11/30/2023 at 6:26 PM, migmadmarine said:

Ok, I'll give that a shot, and here's hoping. It does seem like the beam "feels" you without evening illuminating you, so that note gives me hope. 

Did you have a chance to see if it helped?

[migmadmarine]

Afraid not, I have my partner's family in town at the minute through Tuesday, so it might be a lil while

[Stonehouse]

AAA Mod will work as it is but there have been some changes which will shift certain vehicles out of the scope of the current version. Accordingly, I will need to do some updates to include these vehicles once again. eg gazmm72k

 

Believe the AAA Heavy flak effects mod is fine post 5.201 but will recheck as part of updating the main AAA mod

 

New version of EMG so will need to recheck the EMG attack range mod

 

Updated careers and qmb in game so will need to recheck the Career and AQMB attack range mod

Edited December 19, 2023 by Stonehouse

[migmadmarine]

Got to try one night flight recently, behavior of searchlights didn't seem radically different. Was an Li-2 raid, so the altitude was quite low, which might have been a factor. 

[Stonehouse]

1 hour ago, migmadmarine said:

Got to try one night flight recently, behavior of searchlights didn't seem radically different. Was an Li-2 raid, so the altitude was quite low, which might have been a factor. 

Ah well. It was a long shot. I'll look again for something else to tweak but I don't think there is anything I can access.

[JG4_Moltke1871]

@Stonehouse

I think the Maxim 14 WW1 medium AA need some adjustment, I think they are too accurate. As reference can use the Newport 11 mission 'Initiation' where you have to patrol the frontline with 7 N11's in an altitude about 1500 to 1800 meters. A lot of Maxim 14 are in position along the frontline. As I played it with your Mod 5 of 7 planes was shot down already before any enemy was sighted. Later in the action of corse I also was shot down by a maxim 14 nearby ?

Without your Mod only one friendly was shot down while patroul the frontline.

Maybe have to overthink the accuracy of mid and long range AAA at all because we adjuted it with the late war powerhorses like DH4 or Breguet 14 they easy can bring me to higher altitudes, thats very difficult up to impossible with the weaker early war planes coming into the game right now and with the next flying circus package. Heavy AAA maybe, Medium Maxim 14 already for sure.

I can recomment try that mission while use the time acceleration function.

[Stonehouse]

13 hours ago, JG4_Moltke1871 said:

Maxim 14 WW1 medium AA need some adjustment

Ok still have to do 5.201 changes to the mod so will add the Maxim's to the list. How about going the other way? German early war over British AAA. Does your WW1 perspective (recalling I don't fly WW1 much) indicate any issues?

[JG4_Moltke1871]

So far I dont see that because no changes in the German bomber planeset so far. Is the Maxim AA equipped for both fractions?

[Stonehouse]

1 hour ago, JG4_Moltke1871 said:

Is the Maxim AA equipped for both fractions?

A mission author can fiddle with the country when they place the unit. Generally however, no don't think so.

[JG4_Moltke1871]

On 12/26/2023 at 2:41 AM, Stonehouse said:

Ok still have to do 5.201 changes to the mod so will add the Maxim's to the list. How about going the other way? German early war over British AAA. Does your WW1 perspective (recalling I don't fly WW1 much) indicate any issues?

So far had no time to play the German side but a career for that is on my list. But in fact there are no new German bombers and two seaters in the game so there should no problem. I will start a DFW career in 1916 to check. The only older German two seater comes with the Roland C.II in the next Flying Circus bundle.

 

But so far I highly recommend reduce the Maxim Flak to the normal/default values. They are still strong enough than.

[JG4_Moltke1871]

Just tested a german photo recon mission in 1916 to picture an enemy airfield from 2000 meters, as usual hard AAA but no threat by mid AAA.

On opposite side a british mission like that in same altitude is simply impossible because the, by your mod, improved, Maxim AA (assumed range 2500 meters?) will shot down my plane with one of the first bursts.

That test confirms my recommendation that the Maxim 14 AA dont need any improvement.

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by JG4_Moltke1871

[WitchyWoman]

Not sure if its suppose to be this way but AAA seems to be much more deadly now in WW1 careers, I tend to always see a few bombers an fighters shot down at low altitude by machine guns and tonight I got blown out of the sky by an Air barrage while I was lining up for a bomb run and adjusting sights in the DFW. The barrages seem fine as is but the low level AA MG's seem to be very accurate even when maneuvering to evade. Due to this I try to stay above 1000 feet but I was shot up bad and wounded in a DII yesterday at around 900 feet by MG's. No amount of maneuvering seemed to help. They were right on me until I spun around and got over friendly lines, then crash landed.

 

 I am using the current version with the current despawn delay.

Edited December 31, 2023 by WitchyWoman

[Stonehouse]

Ok AAA mod is on the to-do list. 

[Stonehouse]

On 12/30/2023 at 2:36 AM, JG4_Moltke1871 said:

Maxim 14 AA

 

Now I have a beta of AI Gunnery uploaded to the forum I am starting to look at this mod. Checking the Maxim 14 I see it is actually a 37mm light flak gun. Accordingly, I will give it the same treatment as I did for WW2 light flak and split off a new config file for WW1 light flak and attach it to the Maxim light flak gun. Currently it uses the machine gun setup as is also the case in stock. Oddly though the mod's config has much more dispersion and error than stock. So, I am a little puzzled why you are finding it so deadly compared to stock.

 

Left side is the current release of the mod. Right is 5.201. As you can see the max error is much greater. The only thing I can see is that the targeting distance is very much smaller in stock................however it should be noted that the Maxim 14 had about a 2750m range (ie more than the 1000m allowed in stock) although I expect this boiled down to about 1500m due to sighting issues etc. I think I will double check the max effective range against aerial targets that has been set up for the gun......probably it needs reducing and this will resolve the issue. Very likely in stock it simply doesn't fire at you until you are within 1000m.

 

[Stonehouse]

56 minutes ago, Stonehouse said:

 

Now I have a beta of AI Gunnery uploaded to the forum I am starting to look at this mod. Checking the Maxim 14 I see it is actually a 37mm light flak gun. Accordingly, I will give it the same treatment as I did for WW2 light flak and split off a new config file for WW1 light flak and attach it to the Maxim light flak gun. Currently it uses the machine gun setup as is also the case in stock. Oddly though the mod's config has much more dispersion and error than stock. So, I am a little puzzled why you are finding it so deadly compared to stock.

 

Left side is the current release of the mod. Right is 5.201. As you can see the max error is much greater. The only thing I can see is that the targeting distance is very much smaller in stock................however it should be noted that the Maxim 14 had about a 2750m range (ie more than the 1000m allowed in stock) although I expect this boiled down to about 1500m due to sighting issues etc. I think I will double check the max effective range against aerial targets that has been set up for the gun......probably it needs reducing and this will resolve the issue. Very likely in stock it simply doesn't fire at you until you are within 1000m.

 

 

Yep M-14 flak has 3000m range in stock against aerial targets - so the increased targetingDistance value in the mod accounts for the difference you see. The stock gun is being limited to machine gun range despite it being a 37mm shell and so simply not firing at you even though you are technically in range. So that you know why I gave the increased targetingDistance - I took the attitude that the crew can see a target at more than 1000m and so would begin to orientate the gun towards a possible threat and begin to engage it when the target was identified as enemy and was within the effective range of the weapon. This makes the AAA much more responsive under the mod than in stock. In stock the crew basically ignores the target until it is quite close and then scrambles to point the gun at the last second. This often results in little or no AAA fire.

 

The devs may have attached the M14 to the MG category deliberately to account for sight and ammo deficiencies of the time although I would have thought setting the effective range would be a better approach or perhaps it should not have been attached to the MG category.

 

Anyway, I will make a light AAA category for WW1 and adjust the effective range to 1500m which I have seen quoted as the real effective range against aircraft. This should improve the situation you report.

 

PS also believe that the current ROF of 300 rpm is the cyclic or theoretical ROF. A Finnish museum web site gives 200-250 as a practical ROF so I will reduce the ROF to 200 rpm in addition to the above. This is in line with the last release where I switched ROF to practical where I had data to do so.

Edited January 2, 2024 by Stonehouse

[Stonehouse]

Beta version for people to trial and provide feedback.

 

Changelog:

• Review files and do a few resync's to stock
• Create new light AAA category for WW1 and attach the M-14 flak to it
• Adjust effective range and ROF of M-14 flak
• Add new stock file turretcontrollertankaaa_ai.txt to the mod and make adjustments to error and dispersion values. 

AAAmod beta v20240102.zip

 

[WitchyWoman]

Ill try it out stone. Ty.

 

 

 

[Stonehouse]

FYI Confirmed that the AQMB_QMB and career AAA attack range mod does require update after patch 5.201.

[WitchyWoman]

Ok I tried the beta that tweaks WW1. The MG's seem to be less deadly and a lot better but I saw some crazy behavior which I am not sure is related to AAA.

 

While over enemy side of trenches. A flight of 5 CVs were circling at around 200-300 feet over no mans land and attacking AA and Arty positions. I never saw them strafe and fly so low before. I have seen fighters do this. Before this AAA beta that would of been suicide. I did get blown out of the sky though as I flew down to see what they were doing and also test the MG's but it must of been an air burst that got me as I turned into a fireball.?

[MajorMagee]

Perhaps it was the infamous "Flaming Onions" that got you?

[Stonehouse]

7 hours ago, WitchyWoman said:

I never saw them strafe and fly so low before.

Thanks for trying it out. No that sort of thing isn't anything related to the AAA mod.

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

I am using the mod in an updated version of my pack @Stonehouse playing back tracks and have seen no weird anomalies or bugs. This goes for the AI gunnery mod too.

Edited January 6, 2024 by =DW=_drewm3i-VR

[Stonehouse]

2 hours ago, =DW=_drewm3i-VR said:

updated version of my pack

 

Just be aware that the final release version may include some tweaks if feedback indicates a need to do so. I'll probably release this beta towards the end of next week if no-one raises any issues.

[Stonehouse]

Updated AQMB_QMB and career AAA attack range mod in first post. Changes basically to compare several thousand differences and where necessary update the attack range against aerial targets. New career/QMB folder number 28 added to the scg folder so this is also now incorporated into the mod.

 

Hopefully I've not missed something or screwed something up, there are too may files to test so other than a very quick health test no real testing done and I'm afraid it will depend on user feedback. Considering it only impacts the AAA attack range and when some groups are spawned and deleted, I don't believe there is much risk of anything disastrous happening, but you can never be 100% sure.

 

Still aiming to release the AAA mod beta above at the end of this week unless someone posts about issues with it.

[Stonehouse]

EMG AAA attack range mod update is WIP

 

<edit> seems like I will be redoing things from scratch. Too many changes in the generic template mission to use an old v's new comparison in something like winmerge approach.

Edited January 10, 2024 by Stonehouse

[Stonehouse]

Vandor just released v81 of EMG, fortunately for me I hadn't got too far with reworking the EMG AAA attack range mod. 

 

One question for people - with the AAA mod beta above are you finding the M-14 flak still too deadly or is it ok?

 

If people find them ok using the beta AAA mod, then I will include them in the generic template (Vander has removed them all and replaced them with MGs) so you get them in WW1 missions.

 

If people are still finding them too deadly - please give that feedback and details of how they are an issue so I can adjust them in the AAA mod.

 

Thanks 

[JG4_Moltke1871]

6 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

Vandor just released v81 of EMG, fortunately for me I hadn't got too far with reworking the EMG AAA attack range mod. 

 

One question for people - with the AAA mod beta above are you finding the M-14 flak still too deadly or is it ok?

 

If people find them ok using the beta AAA mod, then I will include them in the generic template (Vander has removed them all and replaced them with MGs) so you get them in WW1 missions.

 

If people are still finding them too deadly - please give that feedback and details of how they are an issue so I can adjust them in the AAA mod.

 

Thanks 

I installed it but so far had no time to face it. As soon I have time I will try the N11 Verdun mission or start a entente career to see how it is.

[Stonehouse]

12 minutes ago, JG4_Moltke1871 said:

I installed it but so far had no time to face it. As soon I have time I will try the N11 Verdun mission or start a entente career to see how it is.

If you have time, please try a few missions flying WW2 bombers - I know you fly these types of campaigns and missions so it would be good to hear how the new configuration works for human flown bombers.

 

Thanks!

[Letka_13/Arrow_]

10 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

If you have time, please try a few missions flying WW2 bombers - I know you fly these types of campaigns and missions so it would be good to hear how the new configuration works for human flown bombers.

 

Thanks!

I have flown some 10 career ground attack missions in Normandy with P-47D using the latest beta of the MOD and everything worked fine (with parity in AAA strength). I am going to install the latest release and test it but not expect any problems. I think it is currently quite well balanced so AAA offers good challenge, but is survivable also for AI. Escorted bombers also survived as AAA tends to target escort fighters, but that is a problem of the base game. 

[JG4_Moltke1871]

16 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

If you have time, please try a few missions flying WW2 bombers - I know you fly these types of campaigns and missions so it would be good to hear how the new configuration works for human flown bombers.

 

Thanks!

Indeed I like that type. But in time they are not on my list and especially long range high altitude missions eating a lot of time ?

I will report if I do but please don’t expect it happen soon.

[Stonehouse]

Promoted the beta version to release. No further tweaks - got my fingers crossed that the M-14 flak changes fixed things for WW1 people.

 

updated EMG attack range mod should be released within a couple of days....which I think will mean I have finally caught up with post 5.201 changes to mods.

Edited January 13, 2024 by Stonehouse

[Stonehouse]

Updated EMG AAA Attack range mod posted in first post. Changes simply to resync to the generic template in EMG v81.