Il-2 Great Battles Expansion Concepts: Battle of Sicily

[MasterBaiter]

That would be neat

[Vig]

Good luck on that Late War Eastern Front Module.  ?

[Chief_Mouser]

Sicily (and Malta) would introduce a load of new planes - let's bring it on!

Love the map suggestion, I wonder if it can be done. Is there a finite map size irrespective of what detail is on it?

[Pict]

2 hours ago, Eisenfaustus said:

I think the potential market that is opened up by this is not as big as you imagine

 

You think so...larger is larger, ask any woman 

[[F.Circus]FrangibleCover]

2 hours ago, 216th_Cat said:

Sicily (and Malta) would introduce a load of new planes - let's bring it on!

Love the map suggestion, I wonder if it can be done. Is there a finite map size irrespective of what detail is on it?

I have not a clue, but there's so damn much of Italy and all the bases are so far apart that I feel I have to request it. It would probably be just about possible to cut the map down to only cover Sicily, Pantelleria, Malta and Crotone (main Axis fighter base for second half of ops) on the mainland and then the bomber pilots will just have to do sketchy half-payload liftoffs from Luqa and Hal-Far. I'd rather avoid that though, WGG Duncan-Smith claims that the standard terrain of Malta in 1943 was densely packed stone wall field boundaries and while I love my A-20 I don't have much faith in its survivability in a runway overrun scenario.

 

The big proper bomber bases are on Sardinia and around Sousse, and more than anything else it's them that have set the size of the map. Well, that and there's a buttload of sea on the far side of the peninsula that has nothing in it, which is preparation for me getting really ambitious!

[ITAF_Rani]

I d like to see Mc 205 Veltros vs Spitfires....what a fights !!

 

https://www.stormomagazine.com/Articles/HistoryArticles_Macchi_vs_Spitfire.htm

Edited October 31, 2021 by ITAF_Rani

[Enceladus828]

7 hours ago, Pict said:

CloD is an old game compared to BOX

While CloD did come out 3 years before BoX did, the BoX/GBs engine is actually older than the CloD engine as the BoX engine is the 2009 Rise of Flight engine that 1C/777 took, modified it for WW2 and built BoS.

 

8 hours ago, Pict said:

initially affecting the continued development of the original IL2 by TD

I'm sorry what? Patch 4.09 is when TD got on but that was made by both 1C and TD, while Patches 4.10 onwards have been made exclusively by TD and since 2016 or earlier have plans to make the Channel map. The reason why they didn't make it after 4.11 was released was most likely because they have other priorities such as the game enhancements for 4.12 and adding a flyable B-24 and the New Britain/New Ireland/New Guinea map in 4.13.

 

7 hours ago, Pict said:

CloD has already hogged the BoB scenario for a very long time

There are reasons why the devs haven't gone and don't wish to do BoB than simply because CloD is there. To begin with, the BoX/GBs game engine can't handle large formations of aircraft so you would be going up and engaging only a few bombers and fighters than in reality, and therefore it wouldn't be realistic. You could say the same about other areas already in the game that there were larger amounts of aircraft than depicted in the game but the BoB is where the historical amount of aircraft absolutely needs to be depicted or else don't bother.

A reason why the devs don't want to go to North Africa/MTO is because Jason stated that unlike the Pacific, Eastern and Western Fronts which they know a lot about and have lots of information, they don't know much about North Africa/MTO so a longer than normal amount of time may be spent to find the necessary information than the theaters mentioned above.

Lastly, think of the revenue that 1C will generate right now by doing tBoB or North Africa/MTO vs. doing D-Day, or Bodenplatte, or a late war Eastern Front and having aircraft that most people in the world are familiar with such as the P-47, P-51, P-38, Spitfire, Typhoon, Tempest, C-47, Mosquito, Me-262, etc.? 

 

Overall, a place that the IL-2 Dover series/CloD covers doesn't automatically mean that the devs can never go there as if the devs do everything they can in Europe or everything they can including the Pacific and want to go to a place that's covered in CloD like tBoB or the MTO then they'll look into going there, but for now no; and based on what Jason has said in the past, he and his team are totally okay with that.

 

Finally, BoN gives us the Channel map which means that one can do a BoB scenario with BoM and BoS aircraft, Spitfire Mk.Vb and Hurricane Mk.II.

Also, if a TC installment is dedicated to El Alamein and CloD does an installment which includes the El Alamein map (going from Sidi Barrani to Alexandria) then that doesn't interfere with CloD as the CloD installment would be dedicated to the aerial battle while the TC installment would be dedicated to the ground/tank battle.

I and most likely other CloD fans would get that TC installment.

 

Thank you for reading what I have to say.

[Pict]

2 hours ago, Enceladus said:

While CloD did come out 3 years before BoX did, the BoX/GBs engine is actually older than the CloD engine as the BoX engine is the 2009 Rise of Flight engine that 1C/777 took, modified it for WW2 and built BoS.

 

If you want to go down that route, CloD is just a development of the original IL2. But as you correctly point out it's 3 years older than BOX.

 

2 hours ago, Enceladus said:

I'm sorry what? 

 

Fair enough I might not have made my point clear and even after all this time it still may not be common knowlage, so here's a slightly better explaination.

 

Back when the team got access to the scource code for IL2 1946, one of the stipulations was that we would do nothing that could be used towards a BoB scenario, that included such stuff as Spitfire MK.I's & MK.II or other aircraft that was used predominantly in the BoB, Channel map, even if it was for a D-Day scenario and so on. This was done to ensure that CLoD would have no competition from IL2 1946.

Edited October 31, 2021 by Pict

[LukeFF]

3 hours ago, Enceladus said:

While CloD did come out 3 years before BoX did, the BoX/GBs engine is actually older than the CloD engine as the BoX engine is the 2009 Rise of Flight engine that 1C/777 took, modified it for WW2 and built BoS.

 

Eh, not quite. The ROF engine has been so heavily modified that it's now a new engine known as Digital Warfare. One thing is not the other. ?

[[-=BP=-]Slegawsky_VR]

 

Edited October 31, 2021 by [-=BP=-]Slegawsky_VR

[DD_Arthur]

2 minutes ago, [-=BP=-]Slegawsky_VR said:

 

 

Er....whatever this is, apparently I must prove my age to YouTube to view it.

[[CPT]Crunch]

Remarkable footage, not every day you get to see gunners actually shooting down attackers that clearly and close, at first I thought it was staged like typical cut and snip, but those are actual attacking spitfires getting mauled and up close.?

[ITAF_Rani]

A view about Sicily invasion 1943

 

 

[[F.Circus]FrangibleCover]

4 hours ago, ITAF_Rani said:

A view about Sicily invasion 1943

 

 

Interesting, I had thought the covering force was positioned off Palermo to interdict aircraft from Sardinia and ships from Genoa. I'm surprised they were catching air strikes when they're all the way out there.

[ITAF_Rani]

 

[ITAF_Rani]

 

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by ITAF_Rani

[[-=BP=-]Slegawsky_VR]

 

 

[[F.Circus]FrangibleCover]

I'm still beavering away on the Salerno module but I think I need some community input. The other two Italian Serie 5 fighters are obvious inclusions and I've got two German aircraft to continue the fight in Italy into 1944, but I'm not sure what to do for the fifth aircraft. I'd prefer not to have a complex medium or heavy bomber type and I'd like it to have seen worthwhile service with one or both of the Salo Republic or Italian Co-Belligerent Air Force. The three 0 Serie fighters all seem to have had some part in the fighting and all have some Eastern Front applicability but they're very obsolete by 1944 and don't look to have had major continued careers after the Armistice. The CANT 1007 and 506 are really too large. The Ro 57 saw almost no service and was out of service by Salerno. Anyone got any good ideas?

[ITAF_Airone1989]

13 minutes ago, [F.Circus]FrangibleCover said:

I'm still beavering away on the Salerno module but I think I need some community input. The other two Italian Serie 5 fighters are obvious inclusions and I've got two German aircraft to continue the fight in Italy into 1944, but I'm not sure what to do for the fifth aircraft. I'd prefer not to have a complex medium or heavy bomber type and I'd like it to have seen worthwhile service with one or both of the Salo Republic or Italian Co-Belligerent Air Force. The three 0 Serie fighters all seem to have had some part in the fighting and all have some Eastern Front applicability but they're very obsolete by 1944 and don't look to have had major continued careers after the Armistice. The CANT 1007 and 506 are really too large. The Ro 57 saw almost no service and was out of service by Salerno. Anyone got any good ideas?

@ITAF_Rani ⬆️

[Alexmarine]

The G.55 is a non-factor for any scenario pre-Armistice concerning southern Italy, the 205 and 2005 are more than enough to fill up high-end fighter slots of a module, leave other slots to fighter-bombers/bombers like the CR42, the MC200, the Re2002, the Ro57 etc.

[[F.Circus]FrangibleCover]

13 minutes ago, Alexmarine said:

The G.55 is a non-factor for any scenario pre-Armistice concerning southern Italy, the 205 and 2005 are more than enough to fill up high-end fighter slots of a module, leave other slots to fighter-bombers/bombers like the CR42, the MC200, the Re2002, the Ro57 etc.

Yes, but a Salerno module covers post-Armistice much more than pre-Armistice, the Armistice being agreed the best part of a week beforehand. This makes the Serie 5 fighters the most relevant Italian combat aircraft along with the SM. 79, and I'm already putting the Macchi and the SM. 79 in this module suggestion. CR. 42 is another valid suggestion for an aircraft that is going to be absolutely painful against contemporary air opposition. What I'm looking for is something that's not. Honestly I'm considering the Ro. 57 under what I'm going to call the Moscow Collector Clause (If an aircraft is cool enough you can just put it in the module and pretend it was in service).

[Alexmarine]

9 minutes ago, [F.Circus]FrangibleCover said:

Yes, but a Salerno module covers post-Armistice much more than pre-Armistice, the Armistice being agreed the best part of a week beforehand. 

 

The point is that at the armistice date no more than 30ish G.55 were in service with  units that at best operated only as far south as Rome. The other problem is that the ANR units that kept fighting with the Germans were pushed way northern almost immediately as to avoid them ending up on allied airfields by mistake, so you better start asking for a map going from Sicily all the way to the Alps.

 

People don't realise that any post-armistice scenario basically makes the Italian aircraft disappear either acting over only the Balkans for the Allies or as Defence of the Reich proxy on the southern german border

[[F.Circus]FrangibleCover]

4 minutes ago, Alexmarine said:

 

The point is that at the armistice date no more than 30ish G.55 were in service with  units that at best operated only as far south as Rome. The other problem is that the ANR units that kept fighting with the Germans were pushed way northern almost immediately as to avoid them ending up on allied airfields by mistake, so you better start asking for a map going from Sicily all the way to the Alps.

 

People don't realise that any post-armistice scenario basically makes the Italian aircraft disappear either acting over only the Balkans for the Allies or as Defence of the Reich proxy on the southern german border

Yes, therefore the map will add on to the top of the one suggested in the first post of this thread, extending far enough north to include the airfield complexes around Viterbo and far enough east to encompass the island of Vis and a chunk of Occupied Yugoslavia for the Balkan Air Force to operate against. Without the short term prospect of Allied heavies being added it seems unnecessary as well as difficult to represent the major ANR bases around the industrial north of Italy (incidentally I take issue with your description of the Salo air defence effort as being part of the Reichsverteidigung per se). As a result they can instead be represented in their forward bases around Lazio, which I'm fairly sure they deployed to when required.

 

The Italians don't disappear, they decrease in number and relevance. But if you're not adding Italian aircraft to the Italy modules what are you adding?

[Alexmarine]

20 minutes ago, [F.Circus]FrangibleCover said:

 

 

The Italians don't disappear, they decrease in number and relevance. But if you're not adding Italian aircraft to the Italy modules what are you adding?

 

The Sicilian campaign is the utmost limit I would consider for a module presenting Italian air forces. Exactly as you said the Italian campaign is probably the lowest point of relevance for Italian armed forces and military hardware, so I care very less for it. The Air campaign over Malta are also of interest (if North Africa itself is off limits)

[Guster]

Personally I'd prefer a Siege of Malta module (BaM?) mainly because it was a much longer campaign. It would require less map; Malta, Sicily and a slice of Tunisia would do, and most of it would be water.

The early skirmishes between the RAF and the RA would be a lot of fun, and there'd be plenty of room to do some convoy stuff as well.

[Mavi_IT]

On 10/31/2021 at 6:38 AM, Eisenfaustus said:

Penso che il mercato potenziale che viene aperto da questo non sia grande come immagini

 

Non sono d'accordo: c'era anche un sacco di aerei tattici in quella zona. Con lo stesso argomento anche la Renania sarebbe stata assunta...

 

Mi sono preso la libertà di correggere un po' questa affermazione. Mi sembra che la parte della comunità piuttosto di lingua russa sia in realtà ampia e rispecchia le loro opinioni non sianote nel nostro forum. E gli Yak sembrano ancora piuttosto popolari, quindi non riesco a immaginare un pacchetto con dentro uno Yak-3 da non vendere...

 

Per prima cosa ritengo che la simulazione sia incompleta senza un modulo del fronte orientale della fine della guerra.

 

Ci spero, non crederci

 

 

 

Tutto sommato MTO non sarebbe la mia prima scelta, ma probabilmente lo otterrei comunque ad un certo punto ^^

La comunità russa ha già le sue mappe e i suoi aerei.

Malta e la Sicilia sarebbero semplicimenti perfetti.

 

*EDIT

 

Translation:

 

The Russian community already has its own maps and planes.

Malta and Sicily would simply be perfect.

 

Post in English, in the English forums please.

 

Smith

[Jade_Monkey]

Well put, bravo!

[thrila]

I'm a bit late to the party, however I think this is an absolutely fantastic idea.

 

I do have a couple of thoughts.

 

1. I would consider moving the map area slightly westwards to include the airfields in Sardinia. There was a lot of action there in the lead up to the invasion of Sicily. 

 

2. The P38 played such a large role in the Mediterranean theatre I would consider replacing the A36 for a P38F / G.

 

3. Spitfire VC / VIIIc / IXc. I agree, it's a tough call to make I agree. I'd love a Spit VIIIc, and for multiplayer it is so similar to a IXc it can easily substitute for one.

 

4. Consider swapping the Beaufighter or the B25C for a Wellington. It was one of the most numerous bombers in theatre with 17 squadrons containing Wellingtons in July 1943. It provides the Luftwaffe & Regia Aeronautica with a bomber that is relatively slower and less armed a well armed compared to it's American counterparts, but also representative. That said, there is already one in Cliffs of Dover.

 

[ITAF_Rani]

Sicily/ Sardinia 1943 intersting front to develop as a new DLC

Edited June 9, 2022 by ITAF_Rani

[CountZero]

1 hour ago, thrila said:

I'm a bit late to the party, however I think this is an absolutely fantastic idea.

 

I do have a couple of thoughts.

 

1. I would consider moving the map area slightly westwards to include the airfields in Sardinia. There was a lot of action there in the lead up to the invasion of Sicily. 

 

2. The P38 played such a large role in the Mediterranean theatre I would consider replacing the A36 for a P38F / G.

 

3. Spitfire VC / VIIIc / IXc. I agree, it's a tough call to make I agree. I'd love a Spit VIIIc, and for multiplayer it is so similar to a IXc it can easily substitute for one.

 

4. Consider swapping the Beaufighter or the B25C for a Wellington. It was one of the most numerous bombers in theatre with 17 squadrons containing Wellingtons in July 1943. It provides the Luftwaffe & Regia Aeronautica with a bomber that is relatively slower and less armed a well armed compared to it's American counterparts, but also representative. That said, there is already one in Cliffs of Dover.

 

 

Regarding 1 you have map size problems, most maps in game are 300-400km, if you include minimun areas needed for sicily 43( malta, sicily part of tunisia) your already pushing 500x500km map size, add Sardinia to it and your pushing over 700kmx700km map size, and then also you have to fit larg part of Italy on NE side of map, part you would not have to add north of Sicily without Sardnia.

2 is good to have P-38s

3 yes Spit IXc they can save for onother channal dlc 43 or 42, Mk.VIII they can add only here in europe so it should have prio

4 b-25 will be next colector bomber, and wellingtons would fit but i think beaufighter is more type of airplane ppl like in this game. But also could be good to save it for channal dlc and maybe add Beaufort here.

Edited June 4, 2022 by CountZero

[SYN_Vander]

A very interesting proposition indeed! But with all that water…what kind of naval assets should be included?
And perhaps only 4 planes are needed in the package with all the ones we already have?

[CountZero]

1 hour ago, SYN_Vander said:

A very interesting proposition indeed! But with all that water…what kind of naval assets should be included?
And perhaps only 4 planes are needed in the package with all the ones we already have?

There was big naval presence from allieds, that could be problem with this, but they can try to avoid adding big ships (similar like its with BoN ).

Invasion fleets:

 

 

There is planty airplanes on allied side to go for that operated from Malta and NE part of Tunisia, so its no problem to have 5 and avoid ones from other parts of africa that are far away or carrier ones, on axis you could easy fined more then 5 italian ones that fit and could have bases on Sicily, but when you look for german ones your limited to few, i think they can still go for 5v5 and have atleast 1 german airplane, 190a4.

Edited June 4, 2022 by CountZero

[thrila]

On 6/4/2022 at 3:35 PM, CountZero said:

 

Regarding 1 you have map size problems, most maps in game are 300-400km, if you include minimun areas needed for sicily 43( malta, sicily part of tunisia) your already pushing 500x500km map size, add Sardinia to it and your pushing over 700kmx700km map size, and then also you have to fit larg part of Italy on NE side of map, part you would not have to add north of Sicily without Sardnia.

2 is good to have P-38s

3 yes Spit IXc they can save for onother channal dlc 43 or 42, Mk.VIII they can add only here in europe so it should have prio

4 b-25 will be next colector bomber, and wellingtons would fit but i think beaufighter is more type of airplane ppl like in this game. But also could be good to save it for channal dlc and maybe add Beaufort here.

 

I wasn't aware of the sizes of current maps and I must admit I don't know if there are any constraints with the game engine able to handle large maps .  My thought process was that given most of the area is sea it would be easier and quicker for the developers to create the map, despite it's size. My reasoning behind including Sardinia to the map is that I thought it might be interesting for players who like to fly for the Luftwaffe & Regia Aeuronuatica in single player to defend Sardinia and prior to evacuation to Sicily and to provide additional scenarios for multiplayer. However like you said, it would create a large map and people need to be realistic of what is achievable.

 

I wasn't aware the B25 was becoming a collector plane, though I can't say I really follow bomber developments in-game.  I quite like the Beaufighter, so I'd be pretty happy if it was ever modelled in Il2, even at the expense of other aircraft.

 

 

[CountZero]

2 hours ago, thrila said:

 

I wasn't aware of the sizes of current maps and I must admit I don't know if there are any constraints with the game engine able to handle large maps .  My thought process was that given most of the area is sea it would be easier and quicker for the developers to create the map, despite it's size. My reasoning behind including Sardinia to the map is that I thought it might be interesting for players who like to fly for the Luftwaffe & Regia Aeuronuatica in single player to defend Sardinia and prior to evacuation to Sicily and to provide additional scenarios for multiplayer. However like you said, it would create a large map and people need to be realistic of what is achievable.

 

I wasn't aware the B25 was becoming a collector plane, though I can't say I really follow bomber developments in-game.  I quite like the Beaufighter, so I'd be pretty happy if it was ever modelled in Il2, even at the expense of other aircraft.

 

 

I dont think game has technical limit on map size im just thinking they have to think about not ading to mutch, from what we see on previous DLCs map is most demanding thing to make for them. So for this type of DLC i think area like this is minimum:

 

 

Then you have AF airplanes used in Tunisia, you avoid need to add carrier stuff, and you have most of ships used already done for BoN (probably some minor changes), you avoid having to make CA or BB types.

 

Then for that area for Sicily 43 they can pick 5 axis set out of MC205, Re.2001, Re.2002, Re.2005, Fw-190A-4, Ju-88A-17(not sure if they were tonly taking of from far north bases) and SM.79... Allieds A-36A, P-38F/G , P-40F/K/L/M, Spitfire VLF, VIII, IXc, Beaufighter I/VI , Beaufort, Wellington ... 

 

[thrila]

Sounds reasonable

[ITAF_Rani]

How to store 4 people in a Mc 205 Veltro during an escaping at last minute...

Incredible story....

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/warbirdsnews.com/warbird-articles/no-man-left-behind-escaping-sardinia.html/amp

 

[[CPT]Crunch]

Why not throw in two or more separate purchase only bonus aircraft in addition to the ones that come with a premium pack, Think most of us would be willing to purchase a solid bonus air frame, I wouldn't even blink an eye especially an A-36, might buy five of those just because.

[357th_KW]

Another option would be to include the current collector 109G-6 (and maybe add a tropical filter option and some additional skins).  It’s not currently linked to any other content, would provide the most common German fighter of the period for someone new to the series, and is already complete, thus freeing up resources to do some more interesting stuff (I.e. bigger bombers, ships, torpedos, etc).

[Eisenfaustus]

8 hours ago, 357th_KW said:

Another option would be to include the current collector 109G-6 (and maybe add a tropical filter option and some additional skins).  It’s not currently linked to any other content, would provide the most common German fighter of the period for someone new to the series, and is already complete, thus freeing up resources to do some more interesting stuff (I.e. bigger bombers, ships, torpedos, etc).

And would shout out "idiot!" to any player having bought the G-6 already

[BMA_FlyingShark]

9 minutes ago, Eisenfaustus said:

And would shout out "idiot!" to any player having bought the G-6 already

Yeah, I kinda like the idea but I think that a lot of G-6 buyers would feel a bit let down.

 

Have a nice day.