Drop tanks - Will we see appropriate explosion effects? - The Fight For The Sky: Our Fighter Pilots Versus The Luftwaffe In Western Europe (1945) -

[sevenless]

Just came across this flic on YT, which contains a crapload of original gun camera footage showing exploding belly tanks. Once droptanks are retrofitted to BoX, are we going to see this effect represented in the sim? Other effects: Loosing the wing (parts or as a whole due to .50cal fire), hitting ammo storage and explosion etc...

 

Enjoy!

 

Guncamera footage around the 20:20 and 23:00 min mark. Some stills:

 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2021 by sevenless

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I can't see it otherwise. The graphic special effects guy from the dev team should watch this footage (I think devs watch that kind of stuff),  plenty of filmed evidence and inspiration how graphics SFX should look a like in the sim.

[PatrickAWlson]

One thing that I am curious is the actual damage cause by a burning drop tank.  I could see where it could be catastrophic as something is blowing up right under the belly or wing of the plane.  Fragments possibly going everywhere, including into the cockpit.  The fire, however, seems like it would scorch paint and not much else.  Presumably, if the pilot and plane were still in a state to continue then one of his first actions would be to jettison the burning tank.

 

The gun cam footage looks pretty spectacular but I really don't know one way or the other how destructive it was.  Would like to be enlightened.

[AndyJWest]

Guncam footage selected for maximum effect, I suspect. Drop tanks wouldn't explode like that every time.

[ronick]

for that to happen, we need incendiary ammo type to be introduced first.

[sevenless]

19 minutes ago, AndyJWest said:

Guncam footage selected for maximum effect, I suspect. Drop tanks wouldn't explode like that every time.

 

Good point. Sure it was selected for "1945 Michael Bay effect". Nevertheless it obviously happened. However I suspect we need incendiary ammo for that and the tracer is not sufficient? Don´t know. For igniting a fuel gas/air mixture AFAIK a little spark is sufficient.

 

17 minutes ago, ronick said:

for that to happen, we need incendiary ammo type to be introduced first.

 

I honestly am not sure if the tracer is sufficient.

Edited October 6, 2021 by sevenless

[Knarley-Bob]

Some of the drop tanks on US planes were made out of a type of paper mache (SP) so they were light and didn't use any precious metal. The tube that connected them to the aircraft was a tube of glass, so it would break off easily. As for the Axis planes, I have no idea........

Knarley

Edited October 6, 2021 by Knarley-Bob

[PatrickAWlson]

As with any fuel tank, vapor will explode if the tank is partially filled.  I can't imagine that a bullet would actually light it on fire.  That footage looks like an explosion an not a simple fire.

 

I think it was said that German tanks were metal.  Odd decision given shortages.  Also more destructive if they do blow up.   The only thing that would cause real harm is whatever explosive force was directed up into the airframe.  Other than that it would seem to be a light show.

[sevenless]

54 minutes ago, Knarley-Bob said:

The drop tanks on US planes were made out of a type of paper mache (SP) so they were light and didn't use any precious metal. The tube that connected them to the aircraft was a tube of glass, so it would break off easily. As for the Axis planes, I have no idea........

Knarley

 

Looks like the germans used steel.

 

 

 

 

 

28 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

I think it was said that German tanks were metal.  Odd decision given shortages.  Also more destructive if they do blow up.   The only thing that would cause real harm is whatever explosive force was directed up into the airframe.  Other than that it would seem to be a light show.

 

In some of the footage you can see fragments flying away. If it was steel, that and the blastwave should have some kind of effect on the plane.

Edited October 6, 2021 by sevenless

[Pict]

Why are they attaking the Spitfire  @ 21:28 all set to play;

 

 

...or is it just poor film editing 

Edited October 6, 2021 by Pict

[PatrickAWlson]

@sevenless I would tend to agree that an exploding steel tank should cause harm.  However, since the tank is outside of the airframe then it is not as destructive as - example - the TWA flight.  Not an easy physics problem at all.  No idea how much actual force is imparted to the airframe above the tank.  

[sevenless]

1 minute ago, Pict said:

Why are they attaking the Spitfire  @ 21:28 all set to play;

 

...or is it just poor film editing 

 

Dunno. Look up 27:40. Looks like a Mossie to me.

[Pict]

9 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

Not an easy physics problem at all

 

Agreed.

 

From personal experience on a dive support vessel in the North Sea back in the '80's, we had a large steel air cylinder in a compressor room explode. It was so violent that it ovaled the steel bulkheads of the room, blew the roof hatch off and peppered the place with chunks of steel shrapnel. Incredibly however there was one guy in the room when it happen and he survived without a scratch. His ear drums were burst by the rapid pressure change, but otherwise he was fine.

 

7 minutes ago, sevenless said:

 

Dunno. Look up 27:40. Looks like a Mossie to me.

 

 

You're right it is a Mossie, complete with that little blister they added for the navigator to check their six. Surely they had reams of their own guncamera footage to choose from without making such blatant errors.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Pict

[SirFlappy]

I watched the film and was wondering what plane was at 31.12.....it looks a lot like a Lanc to me?

[AndyJWest]

I seem to remember reading that Luftwaffe pilots were instructed to release external tanks only in an emergency. They were expected to be reused, so metal makes sense.

 

As for the effects of an explosion, the skin is very thin, and probably isn't going to act like bomb-case fragment shrapnel. More likely to just tear at the joints. 

[Pict]

1 minute ago, SirFlappy said:

I watched the film and was wondering what plane was at 31.12.....it looks a lot like a Lanc to me?

 

It sure is, you can even clearly see the RAF roundel on the port wing 

 

What's going on here?

[357th_KW]

Just now, AndyJWest said:

[SirFlappy]

Just now, Pict said:

 

It sure is, you can even clearly see the RAF roundel on the port wing 

 

What's going on here?

Yanks getting a bit gung-ho on the return to Blighty!!!!!

[Pict]

5 minutes ago, AndyJWest said:

As for the effects of an explosion, the skin is very thin, and probably isn't going to act like bomb-case fragment shrapnel. More likely to just tear at the joints. 

 

Yes that stands to reason. The fuel quantity would make a big difference to the kind of bang too....less fuel = bigger bang, more fuel = bigger fire.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Pict

[357th_KW]

3 minutes ago, AndyJWest said:

I seem to remember reading that Luftwaffe pilots were instructed to release external tanks only in an emergency. They were expected to be reused, so metal makes sense.

That would explain why we see so much footage of German fighters dogfighting with tanks still attached.  Do you recall where you saw that?  I’m always interested in finding original sources for this stuff.

[sevenless]

7 minutes ago, SirFlappy said:

I watched the film and was wondering what plane was at 31.12.....it looks a lot like a Lanc to me?

 

Could be. It certainly has british roundels on its wings.

[SirFlappy]

1 minute ago, sevenless said:

 

Could be. It certainly has british roundels on its wings.

And what looks like a mid upper turret.

[Pict]

21 minutes ago, SirFlappy said:

Yanks getting a bit gung-ho on the return to Blighty!!!!!

 

Via Italy, as there's a triple engined Savoia-Marchetti SM.79 Sparviero getting the treatment at an aifield @ 30:45

 

=============

 

Ok I understand an Italian bomber being on a German field and using some Luftwaffe gun camera of Mossie & Spit by mistake, but the Lanc is a mystery to me, as the chances of a Luftaffe intruder having a crack at a Lanc at it's base in broad daylight is just miniscule and the chances that that rare film would also just mistakenly be used here is too remote to beleive.

 

I don't get it.

 

15 minutes ago, SirFlappy said:

And what looks like a mid upper turret.

 

Not that it would need one too still be a Lanc as the later B1 Specials had them and the nose turrets removed to save weight for carring the Gran Slam earthquake bomb.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Pict

[Knarley-Bob]

A lot of the editing is to blame, civilians aren't supposed to know the difference, ya know..........?

[[CPT]Crunch]

Half your points deducted for Luftwaffe flyers dropping tanks.  LoL

[SirFlappy]

2 minutes ago, Knarley-Bob said:

A lot of the editing is to blame, civilians aren't supposed to know the difference, ya know..........?

I am not sure?

I just read through the youtube comments and they pick up on all the allied planes shown.

Jim Wahl

1 year ago

At 27:40 that's Mosquito NS522, shot down by two Mustangs on 6 October 44. F/Lt (46333) Alfred Ernest PALMER (pilot) RAF - killed, F/Sgt (1335101) Douglas GARDNER (nav.) RAFVR - killed. Squadron 2/Lt RE Lewis) who claimed an Me 410 nr Helgoland. Always thought it was odd to include that in the montage

 

That is one of the comments,I guess the lanc was just seen on the ground,after crash landing and fired at!

Hopefully the crew had long since got out!

[Rjel]

35 minutes ago, SirFlappy said:

I watched the film and was wondering what plane was at 31.12.....it looks a lot like a Lanc to me?

It is. I would imagine pilots had standing orders to strafe downed Allied A/C when they found them.

 

Having watched this movie for over 40 years now, I know it almost by heart, narration included. Even though it said it's produced by the USAAF, it was really produced essentially by civilian/soldiers from Hollywood. I think it's well done all in all. But most of those involved in those productions likely weren't experts in aircraft identification.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Rjel

[sevenless]

24 minutes ago, SirFlappy said:

And what looks like a mid upper turret.

 

Maybe this solves the mystery? I know for sure they had captured B17s. Maybe also a Lanc?

 

War Machines Drawn: Avro Lancaster - German users (captured)

[Rjel]

1 minute ago, sevenless said:

 

Maybe this solves the mystery? I know for sure they had captured B17s. Maybe also a Lanc?

 

War Machines Drawn: Avro Lancaster - German users (captured)

If you look closely, you can see the skidmarks where the Lancaster was belly landed.

[SirFlappy]

11 minutes ago, sevenless said:

 

Maybe this solves the mystery? I know for sure they had captured B17s. Maybe also a Lanc?

 

War Machines Drawn: Avro Lancaster - German users (captured)

Interesting I did not know the Germans actually flew a captured Lancaster...but I think in this case its just a matter of shooting off the ammo at any plane they see on the ground.

 Common practice with RAF and American pilots over reich territory ...I just suppose they did not expect the footage to be studied in depth 70 years later.

 Good film nonetheless...thanks for showing it.

Edited October 6, 2021 by SirFlappy

[sevenless]

1 minute ago, SirFlappy said:

Interesting I did not know the Germans actually flew a captured Lancaster...but I think in this case its just a matter of shooting off the ammo at any plane they see on the ground.

 

You learn something new every day. Seems like they also had a captured Mossie Mk.VI with KG 200:

 

Zirkus Rosarius – die Feindflugzeug-Staffel der Luftwaffe | FliegerRevue X

[SirFlappy]

2 minutes ago, sevenless said:

 

You learn something new every day. Seems like they also had a captured Mossie Mk.VI with KG 200:

 

Zirkus Rosarius – die Feindflugzeug-Staffel der Luftwaffe | FliegerRevue X

Well they had plenty of allied aircraft dropping out of the sky for various reasons to get some in flying condition again.

 I think they were rather envious of the Mossie!

“In 1940 I could at least fly as far as Glasgow in most of my aircraft, but not now! It makes me furious when I see the Mosquito. I turn green and yellow with envy. The British, who can afford aluminium better than we can, knock together a beautiful wooden aircraft that every piano factory over there is building, and they give it a speed which they have now increased yet again. What do you make of that? There is nothing the British do not have. They have the geniuses and we have the nincompoops. After the war is over I’m going to buy a British radio set – then at least I’ll own something that has always worked.”

– Hermann Göring, 1943

[Bremspropeller]

1 hour ago, sevenless said:

Looks like the germans used steel.

 

Aluminium and steel.

[sevenless]

1 minute ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

Aluminium and steel.

 

Thanks. Both metals combined in each tank or were some manufactured from Aluminium and others from steel? That pic here hints to the latter, else the right hand one wouldn´t be that rusty:

 

[Bremspropeller]

9 minutes ago, sevenless said:

or were some manufactured from Aluminium and others from steel?

 

This.

 

The steel one was called E2. The aluminium one was called D2 IIRC. There were different versions of the D2. Some with pointed trailing edges, some with blunt ones.

The pictures above are D2s, as far as I can tell. The "rust" might be dirt or some other reation/ oxidation with the dirt.

The E2 looks different - see this model:

 

Edited October 6, 2021 by Bremspropeller

[sevenless]

4 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

This.

 

The steel one was called E2. The aluminium one was called D2 IIRC. There were different versions of the D2. Some with pointed trailing edges, some with blunt ones.

The pictures above are D2s, as far as I can tell. The "rust" might be dirt or some other reation/ oxidation with the dirt.

The E2 looks different - see this model:

 

 

Thanks. And in typical german manner there were other variations also. See Spechts 109 G5 AS here 04/44

 

[Bremspropeller]

Supposedly that's a 200l tank.

 

Spoiler

 

A II./JG 26 Dora in Lister, Norway with a variation of that tank.

[AndyJWest]

Recycling:

 

[sevenless]

1 hour ago, AndyJWest said:

I seem to remember reading that Luftwaffe pilots were instructed to release external tanks only in an emergency. They were expected to be reused, so metal makes sense.

 

Could well be. I always wondered why that guy we can see at mark 18:05 still had his belly tank in place while attacking the B24s. BTW this is gun footage from another 190 A8.

 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2021 by sevenless

[Avimimus]

On 10/6/2021 at 2:04 PM, AndyJWest said:

Guncam footage selected for maximum effect, I suspect. Drop tanks wouldn't explode like that every time.

 

I've been thinking about this more and more - regarding structural failures, and ground targets like trains too... we see the same dramatic guncamera footage in every documentary... and one can't help but to suspect it is the most cinematic footage.